Me vs Turbo Civic
07-13-2012, 08:38 AM
#221
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A properly built C6Z vs a properly built integra? Really? Ive seen bolt on and spray c6z RAPE fully built big turbo integras. A properly built c6z would take a properly built integra, bend it over and go in dry.
07-13-2012, 10:03 AM
#224
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So maybe big turbo Pro Mod cars should start running 4 bangers to save weight since apparently they can make the same exact power on 120 c.i. as they can on big inch v8s??
07-13-2012, 10:05 AM
#225
omfg... after reading just the last 2 pages... I hate humanity. **** **** **** **** **** **** ****... OK honda guys... duplicate this in a honda. The only thing that makes this car not fully streetable... is one of the tail lights out.
Yea a properly built honda will beat a properly built c6 z06. GTFO! If you want to talk properly built... then the rear tires would be doing the pushing. Not the front tires doing the pulling. Study physics.. forget brand loyalty. Just study physics. Until then... stfu and gtfo. kthnxbye
Yea a properly built honda will beat a properly built c6 z06. GTFO! If you want to talk properly built... then the rear tires would be doing the pushing. Not the front tires doing the pulling. Study physics.. forget brand loyalty. Just study physics. Until then... stfu and gtfo. kthnxbye
07-13-2012, 10:22 AM
#226
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A bigger turbo will 90% of the time make more power at a lower psi because if you have read turbo maps they usually move more air. SO your going to sit here and tell me (for example) an HX35 will flow more air than an hx40? A bigger turbo will more than half the time have a better flow rate than a smaller turbo, More room for air to go in.
But a bigger turbo wont heat up the air as much when it is compressed meaning the flow is more condensed and will make more power.
No go back and read my claim, what i am saying is that a turbo setup is all based on the turbo. Displacement DOES NOT AFFECT ANYTHING all it is there for is to hold the power and all it really effects is spool rate. If not explain to me what ELSE can having greater displacement contribute to a turbo setup? You just need a bottom end to that can hold x amount of power and a turbo that will breath till x amount of power. If that was the case then rotaries and other small engines WOULD NOT make power, displacement is an aid for spool time. That is all. What are you trying or attempting to prove?
CI * EFF * .5 * RPM / 1724 = CFM
Multiply by 0.07 to get lb/min (roughly). Plot that on compressor maps at varying RPMs.
So my engine:
121 cubic inches * (lets say 90% eff at redline) .9 * .5 (has to do with 4 cycle engine cant remember) * 8500rpm / 1724 (conversion) = 268 CFM out of boost. Multiply by pressure ratio, (14.7+20lbs / 20lbs) = 268 * 2.36 = 632 CFM = 44.28 lb/min. Usually every lb/min is 10whp. So thats pretty damn close to my SAE number of 455whp.
07-13-2012, 10:27 AM
#227
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omfg... after reading just the last 2 pages... I hate humanity. **** **** **** **** **** **** ****... OK honda guys... duplicate this in a honda. The only thing that makes this car not fully streetable... is one of the tail lights out.
Yea a properly built honda will beat a properly built c6 z06. GTFO! If you want to talk properly built... then the rear tires would be doing the pushing. Not the front tires doing the pulling. Study physics.. forget brand loyalty. Just study physics. Until then... stfu and gtfo. kthnxbye
Yea a properly built honda will beat a properly built c6 z06. GTFO! If you want to talk properly built... then the rear tires would be doing the pushing. Not the front tires doing the pulling. Study physics.. forget brand loyalty. Just study physics. Until then... stfu and gtfo. kthnxbye
When YOU build the car, and YOU run the time, you can talk all the **** you want.
But most of the time people who have cars like that dont talk **** because they truly understand its really not as simple as Youtube videos make it out to be to go fast.
07-13-2012, 10:34 AM
#228
Is that your car? No. So you stfu and gtfo.
When YOU build the car, and YOU run the time, you can talk all the **** you want.
But most of the time people who have cars like that dont talk **** because they truly understand its really not as simple as Youtube videos make it out to be to go fast.
When YOU build the car, and YOU run the time, you can talk all the **** you want.
But most of the time people who have cars like that dont talk **** because they truly understand its really not as simple as Youtube videos make it out to be to go fast.
07-13-2012, 10:40 AM
#230
07-13-2012, 11:32 AM
#231
More fuel, more air = bigger bang.
Doesn't matter if you force feed it in because, More fuel, more air = bigger bang
What has more capability for the above? 5.7L or 2.0? This argument is stupid. THE ONLY REASON A HONDA CAN BE FAST IS BECUASE OF WEIGHT, nothing more. Slap that 2.0 into a camaro and go run 20+ quarters, slap that LS1 out of the camaro into the honda and go run sub 10`s.
Doesn't matter if you force feed it in because, More fuel, more air = bigger bang
What has more capability for the above? 5.7L or 2.0? This argument is stupid. THE ONLY REASON A HONDA CAN BE FAST IS BECUASE OF WEIGHT, nothing more. Slap that 2.0 into a camaro and go run 20+ quarters, slap that LS1 out of the camaro into the honda and go run sub 10`s.
07-13-2012, 11:57 AM
#232
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who said its as easy as youtube videos... i was referring it to the honda nut swingers arguing hondas are faster then c6 z06s properly built for properly built. You seem to be the only honda guy on this site who gets it. And i HAVE built cars and DO understand it. Just because i dont own the z06 above, does not negate that i may have a clue as to what im talking about. Its aggitating as **** to see the idiocy in this thread. I cant stand it when people jump onto other peoples boards and preach perfection from there desired car brand. I mean since when does peak power beat power through the curve??
And my comment on the power through the curve thing is, your gearing dictates where your power band should be. If the honda makes the power from 6-9k and its gearing puts it there after the shift, it doesnt matter that the vettes power band is from 1-6k. The vette is just more fun to drive lol.
07-13-2012, 12:17 PM
#233
A bigger engine is also going to flow more air and be able to produce more power with less boost. But that goes into the equation for sizing a turbo.
CI * EFF * .5 * RPM / 1724 = CFM
Multiply by 0.07 to get lb/min (roughly). Plot that on compressor maps at varying RPMs.
So my engine:
121 cubic inches * (lets say 90% eff at redline) .9 * .5 (has to do with 4 cycle engine cant remember) * 8500rpm / 1724 (conversion) = 268 CFM out of boost. Multiply by pressure ratio, (14.7+20lbs / 20lbs) = 268 * 2.36 = 632 CFM = 44.28 lb/min. Usually every lb/min is 10whp. So thats pretty damn close to my SAE number of 455whp.
CI * EFF * .5 * RPM / 1724 = CFM
Multiply by 0.07 to get lb/min (roughly). Plot that on compressor maps at varying RPMs.
So my engine:
121 cubic inches * (lets say 90% eff at redline) .9 * .5 (has to do with 4 cycle engine cant remember) * 8500rpm / 1724 (conversion) = 268 CFM out of boost. Multiply by pressure ratio, (14.7+20lbs / 20lbs) = 268 * 2.36 = 632 CFM = 44.28 lb/min. Usually every lb/min is 10whp. So thats pretty damn close to my SAE number of 455whp.
who said its as easy as youtube videos... i was referring it to the honda nut swingers arguing hondas are faster then c6 z06s properly built for properly built. You seem to be the only honda guy on this site who gets it. And i HAVE built cars and DO understand it. Just because i dont own the z06 above, does not negate that i may have a clue as to what im talking about. Its aggitating as **** to see the idiocy in this thread. I cant stand it when people jump onto other peoples boards and preach perfection from there desired car brand. I mean since when does peak power beat power through the curve??
07-13-2012, 01:33 PM
#235
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Must suck to have a honda guy teach you how things work huh?
Which is why you have to pair the setup with the right turbo, but if what you are saying is right then why would the turbo be maxed out and the setup stop making power if what (from what you claim) "the engine is what makes the power here". Sorry on a turbo setup the turbo dictates EVERYTHING.
A bigger turbo will 90% of the time make more power at a lower psi because if you have read turbo maps they usually move more air. SO your going to sit here and tell me (for example) an HX35 will flow more air than an hx40? A bigger turbo will more than half the time have a better flow rate than a smaller turbo, More room for air to go in.
No go back and read my claim, what i am saying is that a turbo setup is all based on the turbo. Displacement DOES NOT AFFECT ANYTHING all it is there for is to hold the power and all it really effects is spool rate. If not explain to me what ELSE can having greater displacement contribute to a turbo setup? You just need a bottom end to that can hold x amount of power and a turbo that will breath till x amount of power. If that was the case then rotaries and other small engines WOULD NOT make power, displacement is an aid for spool time. That is all. What are you trying or attempting to prove?
For example my friends k20 on pump made 540 on 16psi that is 20.62500HP per PSI of boost OVER its stock amount of power. That is an efficient motor but how? its only a 2.0? Apparently displacement is everything.
Which is why you have to pair the setup with the right turbo, but if what you are saying is right then why would the turbo be maxed out and the setup stop making power if what (from what you claim) "the engine is what makes the power here". Sorry on a turbo setup the turbo dictates EVERYTHING.
A bigger turbo will 90% of the time make more power at a lower psi because if you have read turbo maps they usually move more air. SO your going to sit here and tell me (for example) an HX35 will flow more air than an hx40? A bigger turbo will more than half the time have a better flow rate than a smaller turbo, More room for air to go in.
No go back and read my claim, what i am saying is that a turbo setup is all based on the turbo. Displacement DOES NOT AFFECT ANYTHING all it is there for is to hold the power and all it really effects is spool rate. If not explain to me what ELSE can having greater displacement contribute to a turbo setup? You just need a bottom end to that can hold x amount of power and a turbo that will breath till x amount of power. If that was the case then rotaries and other small engines WOULD NOT make power, displacement is an aid for spool time. That is all. What are you trying or attempting to prove?
For example my friends k20 on pump made 540 on 16psi that is 20.62500HP per PSI of boost OVER its stock amount of power. That is an efficient motor but how? its only a 2.0? Apparently displacement is everything.
Jesus man you have no idea what I was saying and what it meant. Are you really saying the turbo is what makes the power? So take the turbo off the engine and see what it does. Nothing!
Your "displacement means nothing" saying may make you feel better, but its simply not true. Yes, the engine is what makes the power, how is that hard to understand? Youre misunderstanding what Im saying. Just because at a certain power level, increasing boost will not help, does not mean that the turbo dictates everything. Put the same turbo setup on a 50cc pitbike and tell me it will make the same power.
I dont even care to argue with you, you think youre right and not trying to learn anything. Ill say it one more time though. Please read my previous post, this post, and lightningteg`s, and take it to heart that your logic is flawed here and me and lightningteg are correct.
Youre thinking about it all wrong man. TURBOS DO NOT INCREASE VOLUMETRIC FLOW, THATS IMPOSSIBLE. Hence, what lightning was saying, in a given engine size Xpsi is Xpsi, no matter what size turbo is on it. The only time a bigger turbo will make more power is if the charge is cooler, in which many times it is. You are mistakenly thinking that turbos increase the CFM going into the engine, which would be a displacement imitator. Thats not how it works. Turbos increase mass flow, meaning its the same CFM going in, but more mass, or lbs/min. Just think about that for a second.
Since turbos dont increase volumetric flow only mass flow, an engine with a larger volume, that has more volumetric flow, will make much more power at a given pressure.
To put it in laymen terms that youll hopefully understand, take for instance a BAE 526ci(8.7L) Hemi Pro Mod engine, and a K20 2.0L. If both engines are at 10psi, think about how much more air is going in the BAE than the Honda volume-wise, it takes much more to fill 8.7L with 10psi than 2.0L at 10psi. Theres a much higher "quantity" of air going in. Its like youre thinking of boost pressure as equal to volumetric flow, which many people do.
Todd Tutterows new ADRL P/X car, is using a BAE 526 Hemi with twin experimental 98mm turbos, and his sponsor, Precision Turbo & Engine, said his engine is making around 4400hp. If displacement really didnt matter, then freaking show me a Honda 4cyl making 4400hp. Or better yet, show me a 4cyl running 5s in the 1/4 or 3s in the 1/8 in a doorslammer.
Your argument is ridiculous man. Lightningteg told you you are wrong, but since he has a teg youre just going to act like you didnt see that and keep on. Ive said my piece, and hopefully youll take this for what it is and learn more about a subject before you try to speak on it insulting people the whole way.
Last edited by jbhotrod; 07-13-2012 at 01:58 PM.
07-13-2012, 02:15 PM
#237
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You basically said it yourself right there, if the turbo dictated everything, then why is the engine efficient or not efficient when the turbo goes on? Once the turbo goes on, the engine/cyl head/etc becomes meaningless right? All you need is a strong bottom end right? It doesnt matter how restrictive the heads or intake are I thought? Youre contradicting yourself in trying to defend your statement. Power per psi doesnt have a damn thing to do with how big the turbo is as long as its in an efficient place of the comp map. "That is an efficient motor", Im not saying it is or isnt, that has nothing to do with it. But, you basically agreed with what Im trying to tell you right there.
Jesus man you have no idea what I was saying and what it meant. Are you really saying the turbo is what makes the power? So take the turbo off the engine and see what it does. Nothing!
Your "displacement means nothing" saying may make you feel better, but its simply not true. Yes, the engine is what makes the power, how is that hard to understand? Youre misunderstanding what Im saying. Just because at a certain power level, increasing boost will not help, does not mean that the turbo dictates everything. Put the same turbo setup on a 50cc pitbike and tell me it will make the same power.
I dont even care to argue with you, you think youre right and not trying to learn anything. Ill say it one more time though. Please read my previous post, this post, and lightningteg`s, and take it to heart that your logic is flawed here and me and lightningteg are correct.
Youre thinking about it all wrong man. TURBOS DO NOT INCREASE VOLUMETRIC FLOW, THATS IMPOSSIBLE. Hence, what lightning was saying, in a given engine size Xpsi is Xpsi, no matter what size turbo is on it. The only time a bigger turbo will make more power is if the charge is cooler, in which many times it is. You are mistakenly thinking that turbos increase the CFM going into the engine, which would be a displacement imitator. Thats not how it works. Turbos increase mass flow, meaning its the same CFM going in, but more mass, or lbs/min. Just think about that for a second.
Since turbos dont increase volumetric flow only mass flow, an engine with a larger volume, that has more volumetric flow, will make much more power at a given pressure.
To put it in laymen terms that youll hopefully understand, take for instance a BAE 526ci(8.7L) Hemi Pro Mod engine, and a K20 2.0L. If both engines are at 10psi, think about how much more air is going in the BAE than the Honda volume-wise, it takes much more to fill 8.7L with 10psi than 2.0L at 10psi. Theres a much higher "quantity" of air going in. Its like youre thinking of boost pressure as equal to volumetric flow, which many people do.
Todd Tutterows new ADRL P/X car, is using a BAE 526 Hemi with twin experimental 98mm turbos, and his sponsor, Precision Turbo & Engine, said his engine is making around 4400hp. If displacement really didnt matter, then freaking show me a Honda 4cyl making 4400hp. Or better yet, show me a 4cyl running 5s in the 1/4 or 3s in the 1/8 in a doorslammer.
Your argument is ridiculous man. Lightningteg told you you are wrong, but since he has a teg youre just going to act like you didnt see that and keep on. Ive said my piece, and hopefully youll take this for what it is and learn more about a subject before you try to speak on it insulting people the whole way.
Jesus man you have no idea what I was saying and what it meant. Are you really saying the turbo is what makes the power? So take the turbo off the engine and see what it does. Nothing!
Your "displacement means nothing" saying may make you feel better, but its simply not true. Yes, the engine is what makes the power, how is that hard to understand? Youre misunderstanding what Im saying. Just because at a certain power level, increasing boost will not help, does not mean that the turbo dictates everything. Put the same turbo setup on a 50cc pitbike and tell me it will make the same power.
I dont even care to argue with you, you think youre right and not trying to learn anything. Ill say it one more time though. Please read my previous post, this post, and lightningteg`s, and take it to heart that your logic is flawed here and me and lightningteg are correct.
Youre thinking about it all wrong man. TURBOS DO NOT INCREASE VOLUMETRIC FLOW, THATS IMPOSSIBLE. Hence, what lightning was saying, in a given engine size Xpsi is Xpsi, no matter what size turbo is on it. The only time a bigger turbo will make more power is if the charge is cooler, in which many times it is. You are mistakenly thinking that turbos increase the CFM going into the engine, which would be a displacement imitator. Thats not how it works. Turbos increase mass flow, meaning its the same CFM going in, but more mass, or lbs/min. Just think about that for a second.
Since turbos dont increase volumetric flow only mass flow, an engine with a larger volume, that has more volumetric flow, will make much more power at a given pressure.
To put it in laymen terms that youll hopefully understand, take for instance a BAE 526ci(8.7L) Hemi Pro Mod engine, and a K20 2.0L. If both engines are at 10psi, think about how much more air is going in the BAE than the Honda volume-wise, it takes much more to fill 8.7L with 10psi than 2.0L at 10psi. Theres a much higher "quantity" of air going in. Its like youre thinking of boost pressure as equal to volumetric flow, which many people do.
Todd Tutterows new ADRL P/X car, is using a BAE 526 Hemi with twin experimental 98mm turbos, and his sponsor, Precision Turbo & Engine, said his engine is making around 4400hp. If displacement really didnt matter, then freaking show me a Honda 4cyl making 4400hp. Or better yet, show me a 4cyl running 5s in the 1/4 or 3s in the 1/8 in a doorslammer.
Your argument is ridiculous man. Lightningteg told you you are wrong, but since he has a teg youre just going to act like you didnt see that and keep on. Ive said my piece, and hopefully youll take this for what it is and learn more about a subject before you try to speak on it insulting people the whole way.
07-13-2012, 03:18 PM
#240
No it doesn't. All displacement does is change the way the turbo will spool. But power on a turbo motor is all based off of the turbo. Perfect example why do you think people turbo 4.8s and 5.3 LSx make 600 instead of turbo an LS1? Cheaper and literally on boost all displacement does is spool your turbo faster. What makes the power on a turbo motor is the turbo. Compression and headflow dictates how much boost you need to run through it to achieve the power though and guess what b16s and gsr heads flow VERY close to each other and make similar compression. Man ive been around ALOT of turbo hondas and if displacement mattered these things would NOT make the power they make on the PSI they make.