'11 5.0 vs LS2 GTO *video*
02-01-2013, 05:43 PM
#61
This is extracted from LS1gto
You pretty much hit the nail on the head, but I feel there is a very important point to note.
THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH. When you gear a car down, you will accelerate harder in each gear, but you will shift out of each gear quicker. Here is a scenario assuming 6800 RPM shifts.
3.91's: You start at 35 mph in 2nd gear. You have the advantage until you need to shift. You shift out of 2nd at 63 mph. The guy with 3.46's shifts out of 2nd at 71 mph. You will get destroyed in this time period.
So, only at 71 mph do you have the advantage again. You maintain this advantage to 91 mph where you shift to 4th. The guy with 3.46's can stay in 3rd until 104 mph. Only then do you get the advantage back. Until you shift out of 4th at 131 mph. The guy with 3.46's can stay in 4th till 148 mph.
3.91's have the advantage, 35-63, 71-93, 104-131
3.46's have the advantage, 63-71, 93-104, 131-148
Now it appears the 3.91's have a greater advantage due to it dominating more of the mph range. However, 3.91's will only offer a 13% gain when it is in the lead. 3.46's will offer a 28% gain while still in 2nd gear (and the 3.91's are in 3rd), and a 26% advantage when in 3rd gear (and 3.91's are in 4th), and a 5% advantage in 4th gear (when 3.91's are in 5th)
For the most part, the cars will average the same distance traveled per time. NO FREE LUNCH. But they will trade leads over the race and whoever is in the lead at the specified 'end' will win. This explains why 3.91's can increase your performance at the track even though you gain no extra power. You get to use more of 4th gear than the guy with 3.46's.
Racing to 155 mph, the 3.91's will be the perfect gear because 5th gear will end right at 155 mph. The guy with 3.46's will have just gotten to 5th.
Mathmatically proven FACT here, not 2 buddys racing on different days:
The 3:91 geared car will gain exactly 3.123456789 lengths by 155 MPH
vs the 3:46 geared car, if both cars are identicle with the exception of gears.
And more knowledge:
Okay, I also have to say, would everyone just stop talking about how 3.91's will hurt your top end. Top end in 6th with 3.46's is ~259 mph. Unless you have ~1225 hp (rwhp required to attain 259 mph @6800 RPM), you are not going to notice a loss of top speed with going with 3.91's. Actually, the 3.91's WILL INCREASE TOP SPEED.
They do this by applying more wheel torque in 6th gear than 3.46's would.
You pretty much hit the nail on the head, but I feel there is a very important point to note.
THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH. When you gear a car down, you will accelerate harder in each gear, but you will shift out of each gear quicker. Here is a scenario assuming 6800 RPM shifts.
3.91's: You start at 35 mph in 2nd gear. You have the advantage until you need to shift. You shift out of 2nd at 63 mph. The guy with 3.46's shifts out of 2nd at 71 mph. You will get destroyed in this time period.
So, only at 71 mph do you have the advantage again. You maintain this advantage to 91 mph where you shift to 4th. The guy with 3.46's can stay in 3rd until 104 mph. Only then do you get the advantage back. Until you shift out of 4th at 131 mph. The guy with 3.46's can stay in 4th till 148 mph.
3.91's have the advantage, 35-63, 71-93, 104-131
3.46's have the advantage, 63-71, 93-104, 131-148
Now it appears the 3.91's have a greater advantage due to it dominating more of the mph range. However, 3.91's will only offer a 13% gain when it is in the lead. 3.46's will offer a 28% gain while still in 2nd gear (and the 3.91's are in 3rd), and a 26% advantage when in 3rd gear (and 3.91's are in 4th), and a 5% advantage in 4th gear (when 3.91's are in 5th)
For the most part, the cars will average the same distance traveled per time. NO FREE LUNCH. But they will trade leads over the race and whoever is in the lead at the specified 'end' will win. This explains why 3.91's can increase your performance at the track even though you gain no extra power. You get to use more of 4th gear than the guy with 3.46's.
Racing to 155 mph, the 3.91's will be the perfect gear because 5th gear will end right at 155 mph. The guy with 3.46's will have just gotten to 5th.
Mathmatically proven FACT here, not 2 buddys racing on different days:
The 3:91 geared car will gain exactly 3.123456789 lengths by 155 MPH
vs the 3:46 geared car, if both cars are identicle with the exception of gears.
And more knowledge:
Okay, I also have to say, would everyone just stop talking about how 3.91's will hurt your top end. Top end in 6th with 3.46's is ~259 mph. Unless you have ~1225 hp (rwhp required to attain 259 mph @6800 RPM), you are not going to notice a loss of top speed with going with 3.91's. Actually, the 3.91's WILL INCREASE TOP SPEED.
They do this by applying more wheel torque in 6th gear than 3.46's would.
02-01-2013, 05:53 PM
#62
Ive noticed on the ZR1's the 3-4th shift is like a close ratio'd transmission. Should do something like that. Gears IMO are only worth using if your car falls out of the powerband between shifts, for a peaky car like the 5.0s that rev to the moon, the mod is necessary.
02-01-2013, 06:38 PM
#63
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I will be camming the car but its not going to be until the end of summer at the soonest and I'm just doing a blower cam (Bobs from Brute Speed)
I will NOT be launching the car never ever with this cam or full bolt on, until I can afford my S60. I know it sucks, but I'm not trying to intentionally break my 10 bolt a second time.
When I can afford the proper rear end which is coming next, after the cam, I will be throwing a drag setup on it w slicks and will be re-doing the gear w the S60 anyways.
I know I should do the rear before the cam but I'm anxious for more power and that sweet sweet sound
So with that being said, since it really would only be a roll that I would be using this 3.73 gear for, however the car will be cammed for awhile with the 3.73s.
Do you think its worth the extra couple hundred bucks to install? Or just keep the 3.42s?
I'm only concerned about the gain I will have when I cam it since I guess there will be no real benefit with the car in its current state. I would think there would be some gain with the 3.73s when cammed, from a roll?
02-01-2013, 06:58 PM
#64
almost every instance i've seen, the numerically higher geared car pulled. of course driver plays a big role. from what i've seen the 410 and 390 geared bolt on cars can make up a lot of ground 3rd-4th gear...esp 4th. i don't see why a cammed car would be any different, but see exponential gains. i haven't had a chance to do a back to back comparison with this car, but naturally it feels much stronger. i get the second gear pull in 4th now.
we will see when it warms up. there were a couple cars around here that were good races before. i'm hoping these gears will make up the difference i need to talk some more **** haha.
we will see when it warms up. there were a couple cars around here that were good races before. i'm hoping these gears will make up the difference i need to talk some more **** haha.
02-01-2013, 09:54 PM
#65
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Well here's the situation. I'm fixing the 10 bolt. (28 spline Moser axles and solid pinion) Because I can't yet spend the $3500 on a S60. (Spool, Adj Torque Arm, Driveshaft, Powder Coating)
I will be camming the car but its not going to be until the end of summer at the soonest and I'm just doing a blower cam (Bobs from Brute Speed)
I will NOT be launching the car never ever with this cam or full bolt on, until I can afford my S60. I know it sucks, but I'm not trying to intentionally break my 10 bolt a second time.
When I can afford the proper rear end which is coming next, after the cam, I will be throwing a drag setup on it w slicks and will be re-doing the gear w the S60 anyways.
I know I should do the rear before the cam but I'm anxious for more power and that sweet sweet sound
So with that being said, since it really would only be a roll that I would be using this 3.73 gear for, however the car will be cammed for awhile with the 3.73s.
Do you think its worth the extra couple hundred bucks to install? Or just keep the 3.42s?
I'm only concerned about the gain I will have when I cam it since I guess there will be no real benefit with the car in its current state. I would think there would be some gain with the 3.73s when cammed, from a roll?
I will be camming the car but its not going to be until the end of summer at the soonest and I'm just doing a blower cam (Bobs from Brute Speed)
I will NOT be launching the car never ever with this cam or full bolt on, until I can afford my S60. I know it sucks, but I'm not trying to intentionally break my 10 bolt a second time.
When I can afford the proper rear end which is coming next, after the cam, I will be throwing a drag setup on it w slicks and will be re-doing the gear w the S60 anyways.
I know I should do the rear before the cam but I'm anxious for more power and that sweet sweet sound
So with that being said, since it really would only be a roll that I would be using this 3.73 gear for, however the car will be cammed for awhile with the 3.73s.
Do you think its worth the extra couple hundred bucks to install? Or just keep the 3.42s?
I'm only concerned about the gain I will have when I cam it since I guess there will be no real benefit with the car in its current state. I would think there would be some gain with the 3.73s when cammed, from a roll?
Now with goin supercharged and with a cam I would expect you would turn it atleast 6500 rpm. With the 3.73's that would set you up for 140mph trapp speeds.
02-01-2013, 10:05 PM
#66
You can quote people all you want but it doesn't necessarily translate to real world performance. When I had my Mustang, the gears did NOTHING. Nothing at all, in a real world scenario, they did nothing. I'm going by what I know. Unless you have a similar situation where you have another car where you have a dead even race from almost all speeds and it ends the same everytime, and then made a gear swap like I did, its all speculation.
My experiences are exactly the oppsoites of yours, my 3:91`s made a massive difference at all speeds, ESPECIALLY lower rolls and Digs.
Next to a cam the gears were the best mods I have ever done.
02-01-2013, 10:16 PM
#67
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Sometimes I think I could use less gear. My car don't get to settle down till I hit 4th.....that only takes about 7seconds. 3.73's would help me stay in the meat of my tq.
Last edited by HioSSilver; 02-02-2013 at 07:43 AM.
02-02-2013, 02:23 AM
#68
Launching!
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Ive noticed on the ZR1's the 3-4th shift is like a close ratio'd transmission. Should do something like that. Gears IMO are only worth using if your car falls out of the powerband between shifts, for a peaky car like the 5.0s that rev to the moon, the mod is necessary.
02-02-2013, 07:26 AM
#69
Bottom line is gears are relavent to a cars setup. Hios car doesnt need much gear because it is very light and has a flat tq and power curve. I cammed GTO on the other hand is heavy and has a more top end power band with a shitty 3-4 shift extension. 3.90s WILL help that setup out both from a dig and on a roll.
02-02-2013, 09:31 AM
#70
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And the same can be said for you. Your going off a lot of variables. IE how much was each car heat soaked between the different runs, tunes etc etc etc.
My experiences are exactly the oppsoites of yours, my 3:91`s made a massive difference at all speeds, ESPECIALLY lower rolls and Digs.
Next to a cam the gears were the best mods I have ever done.
My experiences are exactly the oppsoites of yours, my 3:91`s made a massive difference at all speeds, ESPECIALLY lower rolls and Digs.
Next to a cam the gears were the best mods I have ever done.
But what you should do V8eater is just race me w/ and with out the gears to prove your point
02-02-2013, 10:56 AM
#73
02-02-2013, 11:28 AM
#74
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02-02-2013, 03:43 PM
#79
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It really has nothing to do with common sense. The problem is, V8eater has done this test, in real life and has proven it not to matter from a roll. Then someone is like "dude on paper, its way better and based on my butt dyno because it feels faster." and everyone is like "oh that makes sense, gears are the best!"
So its just a little frustrating, thats all
So its just a little frustrating, thats all
02-02-2013, 04:19 PM
#80
Staging Lane
5.0 definitely gets help from its variable cam timing setup, notice that peaky torque. Actually seems like Ford is retarding the camshaft phasing too soon IMO, but who am I to critique? As far as a 5.0 having the same lowend torque as a LS1, graphs speak for themselves. the around town feel of the LSx will always be more impressive then a coyote.
Stock 2011 5.0
Stock '02 6spd fbody
Stock 2011 5.0
Stock '02 6spd fbody