16SS vs gt500
I agree and know that they are out there, but it's rare that someone actually does research and builds a proper combo. Bad drivers even make it worse. Trap times don't lie though.
For the most part around here, that's what the bolt ons unfortunately run. Tbh, the cammed ones don't run the times the fast list ones do. Maybe that's because of the driver, or they refuse to do weight reduction like me. Mine was as basic of a cookie cutter build that you could do, with zero free mods, but it worked ok for what it was. It could have ran much better than what it did and wasn't a good example of a proper cammed ls1. But even being an off the shelf TSP cam, full exhaust, ported TB, yank stall, still did quite well imo full weight. I listened to my builder at the time (too busy at work) and was happy I did. Could also be that mine was cammed with only 15,8xx on it so it wasn't ragged out.
That tells me that these cars do have alot of potential, that most people don't know, or care to learn about. I honestly think that it should be relatively easy for someone to take a cammed ls1 camaro and run high 10's. Weight reduction, suspension, free mods, on top the right combo/wheel setup, there's really no excuses not to.
Mine excuse was that I wanted zero weight reduction, I want my ac, and I want my car nice. That's the only reason I'm boosted now is because I wanted more power, and it's the lesser of two evils money wise.
As for the gt500 discussion, I was talking bone stock, or close to. Unless they are modded and have weight reduction, imo they don't impress me. I've seen them with good drivers here, but still wasn't impressed. But, I'm not impressed with my car now either, that's why I'm rebuilding it lol.
For the most part around here, that's what the bolt ons unfortunately run. Tbh, the cammed ones don't run the times the fast list ones do. Maybe that's because of the driver, or they refuse to do weight reduction like me. Mine was as basic of a cookie cutter build that you could do, with zero free mods, but it worked ok for what it was. It could have ran much better than what it did and wasn't a good example of a proper cammed ls1. But even being an off the shelf TSP cam, full exhaust, ported TB, yank stall, still did quite well imo full weight. I listened to my builder at the time (too busy at work) and was happy I did. Could also be that mine was cammed with only 15,8xx on it so it wasn't ragged out.
That tells me that these cars do have alot of potential, that most people don't know, or care to learn about. I honestly think that it should be relatively easy for someone to take a cammed ls1 camaro and run high 10's. Weight reduction, suspension, free mods, on top the right combo/wheel setup, there's really no excuses not to.
Mine excuse was that I wanted zero weight reduction, I want my ac, and I want my car nice. That's the only reason I'm boosted now is because I wanted more power, and it's the lesser of two evils money wise.
As for the gt500 discussion, I was talking bone stock, or close to. Unless they are modded and have weight reduction, imo they don't impress me. I've seen them with good drivers here, but still wasn't impressed. But, I'm not impressed with my car now either, that's why I'm rebuilding it lol.
I agree and know that they are out there, but it's rare that someone actually does research and builds a proper combo. Bad drivers even make it worse. Trap times don't lie though.
For the most part around here, that's what the bolt ons unfortunately run. Tbh, the cammed ones don't run the times the fast list ones do. Maybe that's because of the driver, or they refuse to do weight reduction like me. Mine was as basic of a cookie cutter build that you could do, with zero free mods, but it worked ok for what it was. It could have ran much better than what it did and wasn't a good example of a proper cammed ls1. But even being an off the shelf TSP cam, full exhaust, ported TB, yank stall, still did quite well imo full weight. I listened to my builder at the time (too busy at work) and was happy I did. Could also be that mine was cammed with only 15,8xx on it so it wasn't ragged out.
That tells me that these cars do have alot of potential, that most people don't know, or care to learn about. I honestly think that it should be relatively easy for someone to take a cammed ls1 camaro and run high 10's. Weight reduction, suspension, free mods, on top the right combo/wheel setup, there's really no excuses not to.
Mine excuse was that I wanted zero weight reduction, I want my ac, and I want my car nice. That's the only reason I'm boosted now is because I wanted more power, and it's the lesser of two evils money wise.
As for the gt500 discussion, I was talking bone stock, or close to. Unless they are modded and have weight reduction, imo they don't impress me. I've seen them with good drivers here, but still wasn't impressed. But, I'm not impressed with my car now either, that's why I'm rebuilding it lol.
For the most part around here, that's what the bolt ons unfortunately run. Tbh, the cammed ones don't run the times the fast list ones do. Maybe that's because of the driver, or they refuse to do weight reduction like me. Mine was as basic of a cookie cutter build that you could do, with zero free mods, but it worked ok for what it was. It could have ran much better than what it did and wasn't a good example of a proper cammed ls1. But even being an off the shelf TSP cam, full exhaust, ported TB, yank stall, still did quite well imo full weight. I listened to my builder at the time (too busy at work) and was happy I did. Could also be that mine was cammed with only 15,8xx on it so it wasn't ragged out.
That tells me that these cars do have alot of potential, that most people don't know, or care to learn about. I honestly think that it should be relatively easy for someone to take a cammed ls1 camaro and run high 10's. Weight reduction, suspension, free mods, on top the right combo/wheel setup, there's really no excuses not to.
Mine excuse was that I wanted zero weight reduction, I want my ac, and I want my car nice. That's the only reason I'm boosted now is because I wanted more power, and it's the lesser of two evils money wise.
As for the gt500 discussion, I was talking bone stock, or close to. Unless they are modded and have weight reduction, imo they don't impress me. I've seen them with good drivers here, but still wasn't impressed. But, I'm not impressed with my car now either, that's why I'm rebuilding it lol.
You see, I like how you lean LS but you call it like it is with cookie cutter mods. My problem with Hio is he tries to pass off cars with lots of effort and bolt ins off as bolt on only cars. Nathan's car he keeps referencing had some crazy nice light clutch setup and he went through the time to port the stock manifolds. Who the **** does that if not out to prove a point?
Have you seen nathans porting? He probably didn't help the manifolds a whole lot lol. But he didn't have money for headers then so he did what he could......it's called hotrodding.
You see, I like how you lean LS but you call it like it is with cookie cutter mods. My problem with Hio is he tries to pass off cars with lots of effort and bolt ins off as bolt on only cars. Nathan's car he keeps referencing had some crazy nice light clutch setup and he went through the time to port the stock manifolds. Who the **** does that if not out to prove a point?
My heart (yes corny) is with the trans am. I've wanted that car every since smokey and the bandit. I've owned a 2nd gen, 3rd gen, and now this 4th gen. I know it gets played out about ls vs 5.0, and tbh, I don't care what motor is in this car. I like it for the looks and that it's a trans am. But I do think the ls1 is still a very good platform, or these discussions wouldn't even exist.
As far as the new coyote's, I love the front ends, but I would rather have a fox or new edge with the new coyote motor in them. Not taking nothing from the new car, I just like older stuff when it comes to looks.
If I had a higher mileage car, I would have been picking your brain as well as hammers to get the most out of my car and stayed h/c/i. I prefer na, but sometimes you have to change directions to make things work
Thanks Deeo.....the 2 cars i spoke if that went 12.9 were ws6. I would say the weight difference is probably in the 60-80 lb range on average with 100 being with each on extreme ends so not a deal breaker on weight. My friends ht firehawk formula was about 30lb heavier than my car. My car is not a stripper car but it us a ht car. The thing i always kinda noticed when i ran ws6's back in the day with mild mods is they seemed to leave better....probably because of the heavier wing
When did not having headers become max effort? When was 3.73 gears behind a m6 max effort? When did nathans stock tune become max effort? How was mikes car max effort with out even a drag pak??
Max effort cars should run mid 11s or faster pretty easily
When did not having headers become max effort? When was 3.73 gears behind a m6 max effort? When did nathans stock tune become max effort? How was mikes car max effort with out even a drag pak??
Max effort cars should run mid 11s or faster pretty easily
Last edited by HioSSilver; Feb 18, 2016 at 10:21 PM.
If I'm being dead honest, I genuinely like both ford and gm. I've owned both brands and loved them both. I liked my fox body the best, but likes the look of the new edge better.
My heart (yes corny) is with the trans am. I've wanted that car every since smokey and the bandit. I've owned a 2nd gen, 3rd gen, and now this 4th gen. I know it gets played out about ls vs 5.0, and tbh, I don't care what motor is in this car. I like it for the looks and that it's a trans am. But I do think the ls1 is still a very good platform, or these discussions wouldn't even exist.
As far as the new coyote's, I love the front ends, but I would rather have a fox or new edge with the new coyote motor in them. Not taking nothing from the new car, I just like older stuff when it comes to looks.
But also the camaro weighs less than a ws6, especially if it's a stripper. I'm not saying that you don't know what you're doing, because it's obvious by the advice and results you've had. But it's harder to duplicate the times off a camaro to a ws6. Not saying it cannot be done. But most people don't go to the extremes on all the free mods, weight reduction, rotating mass that others do. That's why the average cars run what they do at our track.
If I had a higher mileage car, I would have been picking your brain as well as hammers to get the most out of my car and stayed h/c/i. I prefer na, but sometimes you have to change directions to make things work
My heart (yes corny) is with the trans am. I've wanted that car every since smokey and the bandit. I've owned a 2nd gen, 3rd gen, and now this 4th gen. I know it gets played out about ls vs 5.0, and tbh, I don't care what motor is in this car. I like it for the looks and that it's a trans am. But I do think the ls1 is still a very good platform, or these discussions wouldn't even exist.
As far as the new coyote's, I love the front ends, but I would rather have a fox or new edge with the new coyote motor in them. Not taking nothing from the new car, I just like older stuff when it comes to looks.
But also the camaro weighs less than a ws6, especially if it's a stripper. I'm not saying that you don't know what you're doing, because it's obvious by the advice and results you've had. But it's harder to duplicate the times off a camaro to a ws6. Not saying it cannot be done. But most people don't go to the extremes on all the free mods, weight reduction, rotating mass that others do. That's why the average cars run what they do at our track.
If I had a higher mileage car, I would have been picking your brain as well as hammers to get the most out of my car and stayed h/c/i. I prefer na, but sometimes you have to change directions to make things work
Not really sure why he had the 7.375's in with the other cam, but we measured for this one and talked to btr and 7.400 is what this called for. It ran perfect and had no problems though. I sold the cam and pushrods to a buddy that had a crap cam combo in his car and he picked up a little over .5 tenths with his 4000 stall. I would say it was the tune, but the same guy (our buddy) tuned the car.
I prefer doing all the work on my cars, but I had so much crap going on, I was off work from an injury, and I didn't want to wait lol. What cam are you going with in your 4.8?
Yeah I swapped to the btr stage 1 turbo cam for now, but since I'm getting ready to tear it apart, I will probably have a custom cam done. I thought for some odd reason that 5xxwhp would be enough, but it's not lol. My na cam pushrods were 7.375, but the ones that are in now are 7.400.
Not really sure why he had the 7.375's in with the other cam, but we measured for this one and talked to btr and 7.400 is what this called for. It ran perfect and had no problems though. I sold the cam and pushrods to a buddy that had a crap cam combo in his car and he picked up a little over .5 tenths with his 4000 stall. I would say it was the tune, but the same guy (our buddy) tuned the car.
I prefer doing all the work on my cars, but I had so much crap going on, I was off work from an injury, and I didn't want to wait lol. What cam are you going with in your 4.8?
Not really sure why he had the 7.375's in with the other cam, but we measured for this one and talked to btr and 7.400 is what this called for. It ran perfect and had no problems though. I sold the cam and pushrods to a buddy that had a crap cam combo in his car and he picked up a little over .5 tenths with his 4000 stall. I would say it was the tune, but the same guy (our buddy) tuned the car.
I prefer doing all the work on my cars, but I had so much crap going on, I was off work from an injury, and I didn't want to wait lol. What cam are you going with in your 4.8?
How do you like the BTR cam? If you're gonna tear down the motor & get a new cam soon, let me know if your BTR Stg 1 will be for sale lol.
Edit: only going shelf cam for this 4.8. I don't have hopes of it lasting forever so when it lets go, I'll look into a bigger motor and that's when I'll go with a custom grind.
Last edited by NateLS1Mustang; Feb 19, 2016 at 05:56 AM.
I think I'm going to go with either one of LJMS's shelf turbo cams, BTR shelf turbo cam, or the Triple 12 cam. I'm leaning more towards LJMS. However, I'm trying to figure out if .080 wall pushrods will be fine?
How do you like the BTR cam? If you're gonna tear down the motor & get a new cam soon, let me know if your BTR Stg 1 will be for sale lol.
Edit: only going shelf cam for this 4.8. I don't have hopes of it lasting forever so when it lets go, I'll look into a bigger motor and that's when I'll go with a custom grind.
How do you like the BTR cam? If you're gonna tear down the motor & get a new cam soon, let me know if your BTR Stg 1 will be for sale lol.
Edit: only going shelf cam for this 4.8. I don't have hopes of it lasting forever so when it lets go, I'll look into a bigger motor and that's when I'll go with a custom grind.
I'll let you know on the cam, it literally has maybe 1200-1300 miles on it. I really like the cam though, it could have easily made much more power. The drivability is just like stock, and it idles way better than my other cam. If I close the electric cutout it's pretty quite and you can't even tell it's cammed. The whole car literally shook at stoplights with my old cam, which included us and the wife hated it
I've had a bunch of stuff going on lately, so I haven't been able to clean my basement to make room for all my parts off the car. I'm hoping to start tearing it all apart by the 2nd week of march and I should know if I'm going to get a different cam by the end of that week. Then I'll talk to the wife and feel her out for how much I can spend and not sleep in the garage
I'm torn between buying everything and forging it myself, which leaves money for heads and meth kit with the budget I've hinted at. Or possibly just getting a Thompson Motorsport engine, use my heads and meth kit.
Then I run into the issue of how my 10 bolt with 2.73's and a t/a girdle cover will hold out. Transmissions good for all the power I'll throw at it, but I don't know if that girdle cover with thicker 2.73's is going to save me from buying a 12 bolt and getting a divorce lol
It really isn't that hard to assemble a motor Deeoh. It just takes some patience and a few tools that the average Joe wouldn't have. The LS motors should be pretty simple. Have it bored/honed, throw some ARP main studs in there and check the mains for alignment. It might not need an align hone or bore. Its easier to have the machine shop do the freeze plugs and cam bearings IMO. Check your crank to make sure all the journals are not tapered or off, depending on the brand you have, it may be perfect out of the box. Don't want to chance it though, do we?
Once that is checked, throw a set of main bearings in there, then measure for clearances. Good to go? Drop in crank and install. Then the rest is pretty simple.
Once that is checked, throw a set of main bearings in there, then measure for clearances. Good to go? Drop in crank and install. Then the rest is pretty simple.
Movement of the body, and the squatting over the right rear tire. Most of the weight is being transfered onto that side and shoving the tire into the ground. The driveshaft is twisting the rear towards the opposite side. It is possible that the left tire is unloaded during this, because the weight has shifted, reducing frictional forces on the tire, even with the rotation of the DS.
In a heavily modified car, we have the ability to adjust where all the weight goes with the car staying pretty rigid due to a cage, ARB, air bags, what have you. As long as we can keep the weight transfer front to back equal on both sides, the car is going to plant both rear tires. There really is going to be no difference in IRS for SRA. At this point it is about keeping the rear together and not scattering it on the track.
Last edited by ZNix; Feb 19, 2016 at 11:32 AM.
Bad phrasing. It was meant to say twists towards the opposite side. I will fix that. But the body is important in this equation. Weight transfer to the rear tires is uneven. Because the body sinks lower on the right side, we can tell that more pressure is being applied to the right rear spring, and less on the front left spring (as it is usually the first tire to go up).
11 Second Club
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 804
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From: Tampa, FL
Bad phrasing. It was meant to say twists towards the opposite side. I will fix that. But the body is important in this equation. Weight transfer to the rear tires is uneven. Because the body sinks lower on the right side, we can tell that more pressure is being applied to the right rear spring, and less on the front left spring (as it is usually the first tire to go up).
To control the twisting you stiffen up the pass side spring making it harder for the rear to lift up. As a result this retains more down force on the pass side tire.
But to your point about the body, the body twisting is a bi-product of what the rear AND Crank is doing. Crank rotates the opposite direction of the rear. ARB's, airbags, stiffer springs help control this. Case i point, I have my driver side shock at 5 and my pass on full stiff (10). When the ARB goes on I'll soften up the pass side.
IRS and drag racing. lol.
-Mark
Yes....that is what i was trying to explain to him irrelevant of the body. The irs with has the differential mounted to the body so there are no forces on the drive wheels other than moving the car forward sans anti squat built into it.
On The Tree
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 176
Likes: 71
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how much parasitic loss is associated with u-joints vs. a straight axle?
It really isn't that hard to assemble a motor Deeoh. It just takes some patience and a few tools that the average Joe wouldn't have. The LS motors should be pretty simple. Have it bored/honed, throw some ARP main studs in there and check the mains for alignment. It might not need an align hone or bore. Its easier to have the machine shop do the freeze plugs and cam bearings IMO. Check your crank to make sure all the journals are not tapered or off, depending on the brand you have, it may be perfect out of the box. Don't want to chance it though, do we?
Once that is checked, throw a set of main bearings in there, then measure for clearances. Good to go? Drop in crank and install. Then the rest is pretty simple.
Once that is checked, throw a set of main bearings in there, then measure for clearances. Good to go? Drop in crank and install. Then the rest is pretty simple.
The only reason I didn't do my first "cam only" build on this car was because I was off work injured and didn't have the time. Between physical therapy 4 times a week for 3 hours a day and other things, I was just swamped and I probably couldn't have physically done it at that point either.
Me and my buddy did everything on my turbo build and I wish I had just redone the engine then. I mean the whole front end was out when we swapped k members, the trans was sent out to be rebuilt, and swapped the rear end differential... Not much that wasn't touched considering the cam swap, intake off to tap for the map sensor and the trunion upgrade lol
Edit: The motor was literally held in place by a 2x4 going across my strut towers with a chain bolted to the block and a jackstand underneath
If I decide to forge it, we'll definitely be the one doing all of the work. He's a certified mechanic and has everything we need at his house, which is pretty awesome to have. But I'm definitely changing the freeze plugs and all my bearings if I rebuild it. Even though the motor only has 22k on it, I'm already in it that far and it's a piece of mind for me to do everything right.
11 Second Club
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 804
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From: Tampa, FL
You are correct in saying there are no forces on the drive wheels. That is caused by the bend in the u-joints of both half shafts. All that energy stops there. However by definition, antisquat is the action of the rear end wanting to point downward on the hit because the ring gear wants to nose over. Because all that energy is not transferred to the tires via a fixed non bending piece of metal, it pulls the body downward. So IRS cars have NO antisquat built in them. You have it backwards.
That is why IRS cars are more prone to wheel hop. There is no downward force being applied to the tires.
-Mark