philaeagle51

iTrader: (1)

I drive 2002 camaro z28, minor boltons, stock heads cam, just got new rotors and pads and tires. I'm looking to upgrade my suspension. I have already gotten a new panhard bar and plan to order a strut tower brace. Beside those things, what would be the next step? My car is going from being a DD to sitting in my garage while I go to college, so i am interested in suspension parts for a street car that will still work as a DD. I have looked at the packages on stranonparts but have trouble figuring out which package/parts I need. And for strut tower braces, does it help for it to be adjustable? The panhard bar I hot from spohn makes noise an is non adjustable. I still can't figure out how to fix the noise it makes. Thanks for reading and for any responses.

Killer_Z

iTrader: (1)

sub frame connectors, some shocks. i think that would be ur best start. strut brace u dont need. its a show piece adds no benifit to the car.. strano packages. I would go w/ his springs and koni's if u can swing if not some bilstein's revalves.

libertyforall1776

iTrader: (2)

FALSE -- immediately noticeable improvement when cornering, U-Turns, lane changes, etc. on a stock car.

To the OP: Koni shocks, 35/22 sways, SFRs to start...

Element

iTrader: (5)

Jury's out on STBs - some people say they help, some people say they don't. For $65, it can't hurt to pick one up and see yourself. Wouldn't bother with an adjustable one, though.

Subframe connectors help some, but you'll get the most benefit out of them using good aftermarket shocks. Most suspension vendors sell their own version, UMI has a bolt-in set that actually works pretty well, due to how it bolts in the front.

Lower control arms and LCA relocation brackets help with wheelhop, and a torque arm will help plant the rear on hard launches better.

Sway bars, shocks, and springs are going to give you the best handling performance, but they'll also probably be the most expensive part of your suspension build. If you don't want to spend a couple hundred on new sways right now, new sway bushings and end links are still a good improvement over worn-out stockers.

You can always give Sam Strano a call, or the guys at UMI, BMR, or Midwest Chassis. They're all good people and will help you pick out the parts you need for your application, based on your budget and goals.

redracer1

iTrader: (2)

Shocks: Koni SA
Springs: Stranos
Sways: Strano Hollows
UMI: Adj PHB, LCA's >>all with Poly/Roto-Joints
Relo-Brackets


once all in add these if your still looking for some added riggity.
UMI: STB, SFC

In that order you cant go wrong, one stop shop from Strano.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

I'm around to help you with what parts. The trouble is "I want the car to handle better" (not that you are saying that) is pretty generic. That's impossible for me to make a good recommendation from, kind of like telling you doctor you want to feel better, but not telling them why you feel bad. Help me help you and I'm happy to recommend the appropriate parts.

I can't say a STB is at the top of the list. Shocks generally are the most critical thing, but again, depends on what you tell me/what comes up during out conversation. Might be something else that needs more attention based on those factors.

I'm here to help. This is why I'm always so swamped, because I spend a huge amount of time on the phone with people *trying* to help them. Usually it goes great, sometimes I get someone all pissed off because I can't read they mind and, I guess, should just know what they need by magic. I'm good, but I'm not that good and in the end it's your car so the parts we do should suit YOUR NEEDS best, not my assumptions.

philaeagle51

iTrader: (1)

For STRANO: To make things more clear, my goal is to make my car handle better all around. I'm not so much interested in one area to imporve, basically I am looking to see what parts are the best parts for each of their respective categories, and what order to purchase them in if I could not buy them all at the same time. I'm looking to do a whole suspension system upgrade. All help and any time you spend is greatly appreciated and I will not get agravated

*thanks redracer1 for the list and order!* ALSO I have a question, in your post you say for instance that I should get ( Shocks: Koni SA ), what does that mean? I'm new to cars but I know enough, but I only know what I have dealt with which means I am a noob when it comes to suspension hah

thanks for the info to everyone else

FOR EVERYONE***
links with a place to purchase any recomendations would be helpful, besides the fact that I want the best price, it will also help me see what the different products look like and learn about their application and affect on my car.


THANKS!

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

My pricing is generally pretty fair. Sometimes I'm less than others, sometimes I'm not. But I'm never way, way out of line. And here's an important thing to think about..... Lots of folks carry Koni, for instance. But the instructions suck and those places can't help you with details or setup information for your car. The time it takes to do that (and I don't mind), as well as develop that knowledge isn't free. It's time I don't have to sell other parts to other people. Setup info is free to customers, but remember that details like (but not limited too) that are always part of the price.

Having said that, I don't always recommend a lot of parts at once. Sometimes folks over do it, and I think moderation is important. Also certain parts effect other parts in different ways. You need look at the entire package, not just what you are buying now, but also what might already be on the car--and what future parts might be on the car as well.

redracer1 has done all those parts, and if I recall did them in steps (mostly) so he can attest to how they all help, but in different ways.... but they also total up to a sum that you wouldn't get missing any of them. Do you need or want all those things? hard to say, maybe you need or want more. I like to work more on need than want though.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

False ...

If your car was that loose and sloppy, the paint would be cracking under all the flexing.

What you felt is absolutely and completely subjective. Its you butt-o-meter and I question when it was last calibrated ... before or after your wallet was lightened with an STB purchase?

If a 4th gen was actually a strut car, then maybe.


10lbs of nose weight is too significant to claim "what can it hurt".

In a car that is already stoopid nose heavy, adding an ounce is bad, bad advice.

libertyforall1776

iTrader: (2)

I installed STBs on both a stock suspension '01 SS & '02 RS -- instant improvement, no other changes. Not subjective at all. Same type of improvement was noticed on an '07 CTS 3.6L that has the factory handling option by my Dad when he added the GM STB.

I insist that one who cannot perceive the difference on a stock Camaro with a STB added is just not attuned to their car's handling. What was done in the three examples above was driving it just before the installs, and just after the installs. Fresh in the mind.

I believe Hotchkis STB is less than 10 lbs -- it is aluminum tubing.

Would I have done the shock upgrade first if I did this all over again -- yes. But the STB was the easiest to do.

Element

iTrader: (5)

STB is only ~4.5lbs. That's not exactly a whole lot - probably the difference in the car having a full or empty washer fluid reservoir.

Arc00TA

iTrader: (17)

I have had a STB on and noticed no difference, but I took it off since it was rubbing on the intake manifold once I put solid mm in. I don't think I drove the car hard enough to feel any benefits from it. To be honest, for the price if you like the way it looks in there then get one, but I don't think you will see a big improvement in handling with it for day to day use.


Like Sam said, good shocks are the key with these cars. Night and day difference between stock and even a budget aftermarket shock like a Bilstien.


MY last car I did in small steps since I didn't have the money to get what I wanted right away. I bought A set of Bilstien HD shocks, and those were a vast improvement to the stock suspension. Then came adjustable tubular panhard rod and lower control arms. These made little difference in the feel of the car, but helps me with traction issues. Later on I got the UMI 35/22 solid sway bar set, and that was also a gigantic improvement. I can't even describe accurately the change the sways and shocks made, but it was a much better car to drive after that and I felt that my budget tires were the limit for the car after those mods.

Ironhead

Data = Objective

Butt dyno = Subjective
Ever hear of the placebo effect?

Unless you have strain gauge / other instrumented data, yes... your claim IS subjective. So is mine. So is Mitch's. So is everyone else's who haven't instrumented their car.

Can a STB help? In theory... possibly. In actuality, your 4th gen would probably have to be broken for there to be a noticeable improvement from a STB. As Mitch alluded to, these are not strut cars. Therefore, the towers do not see the loads that a strut car does. Additionally, one of your cars is a convertible. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison to the OP's car, is it?

In this case, I'm with Mitch. I had a STB for a good while, removed it, haven't missed it. Same with the SFC's I cut off long ago. Now the SFCs did make the car stiffer but I lost nothing in the handling department when I removed them.

Given what Mitch does with his car(s), I'd say he's probably pretty tuned in to its handling.

As am I.

I'm fairly confident that I'm / we're putting a lot more stress through the SHOCK towers (and the rest of the structure) than you. In my case, doubling the front spring rate (~50% more in the rear) and running 315 Hoosiers on all four corners in competition will do that. If a STB made my car faster / better, you can be damn sure I'd be running one.



The car has 112k miles. I've owned it since new.


To the OP.... with regard to what should be next.... think shocks, shocks, shocks.

Bilstein or Koni.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

LOL ...

I daily drive a CTS-V and wouldn't THINK of removing the STB. Why? Struts.

As far being "attuned", I've ran my 96 TA so hard that the trans cross brace, not the trans cross member, not the trans mount, the cross brace that is spot welded to the car is ripping away from the floor pan.

I've had to repair the blind nuts that the cross member bolts to. And then repair all the spot welds and stitch weld the cross bross brace to the floor pan.

And all with a full, NASA legal roll cage made from .120 wall, 1 3/4" DOM tubing and a whopping 260 RWHP.

But I see no signs of similar damage in front of the firewall. The hood, fenders and nose all fit just fine. No windshield cracks either.

Like dilled and slotted rotors, a strut tower brace is driveway jewelry on a 4th gen.

Now, thinking that a measely 4lbs of nose weoght is no big deal ... now THAT'S not attuned.

redracer1

iTrader: (2)

To the OP
I posted that list as to what i know now vs what I knew when i was in the same shoes your in. Where do I start and what parts should I get, quality & what parts work well with others. The cool part about building a suspension is you can buy as much or as little as you can afford but knowing what i know now I'd get shocks/springs first & since your original question asks for the first step thats where I'd start now, but know this it can be the most expensive since they should be installed together. So to gain some confidence you can start with some easier supporting mods first before you jump into shocks/springs, that's what I did. Do as Sam suggested and have a goal in mind and he can help you get there. Just keep your goal in mind and he'll steer you to the parts you need vs want to achieve it.
And if it helps, My goal was an *** rippin back road canyon carver that was streetable vs an all out track car but could do it if need be with a couple of adjustments.

Research, Buy, Install, Enjoy...Happy Modding

libertyforall1776

iTrader: (2)

IF it had not made a difference, it would no longer be on my cars. SS is a 'vert, RS is a T-Tops Coupe -- same type of improvement on both -- noticeable in specific situations, as mentioned.

Despite a dictionary definition of "subjective", I am very attuned to the way Camaros drive before and after a STB addition. I have driven Camaros since 1998 continuously.

subjective
1 based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions : his views are highly subjective | there is always the danger of making a subjective judgment. Contrasted with objective .
• dependent on the mind or on an individual's perception for its existence.
2 Grammar of, relating to, or denoting a case of nouns and pronouns used for the subject of a sentence.

Go get a STB (but don't install it yet), do a whole mess of U-Turns, quick lane changes, sharp highway off-ramps and 90 degree turns in a stock Camaro, then install the STB and do it all over again. Those are a few use cases where you WILL appreciate the change.

We do agree that shocks would be a better first choice suspension mod. But I think you notice the effect of a STB *more* when you make it your first suspension mod to a stock car. When you compare to a car with a whole bunch of other suspension modifications and special tires, etc. -- the benefits of a STB may feel diminished. I would not be surprised.

libertyforall1776

iTrader: (2)

Your 96 TA comments are mostly irrelevant to what an STB does for a stock Camaro -- which was the point I made.

libertyforall1776

iTrader: (2)

Yea, so when would you advise a Watts Link over a PHB, assuming no lowering springs? Also, LCAs advised if NOT lowering?

I have no lowering plans as the cars are low enough on the street already, and street is the main function for mine.

redracer1

iTrader: (2)

Well not to totally Hijack the OP's thread it would be imo when you are no longer satisfied with the cars performance level and are beyond the limit of what an after market PHB is capable of giving you along with the other mods you have and would the be piece most suited to acheive your goal.

No reason you cant install after market lca's at stock height but will you get the most out of them is dependent on how you drive your car. A set of 1le bushings on stock lca's might be good enough for some.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

Surely you aren't that closed minded, are you?

If I throw 1000lb front springs, reduce ride height, increase track width and install R compound tires on the car and then begin hopping curbs on a road course, wouldn't that INCREASE movement/flex/twist (or whatever you think is happening up there) forward of the firewall?

Think about it ... IF the towers were flexing while turing, it would have to be inward, towards the motor. As the car loaded on one side in a turn, the upper suspension mount moving inward would increase negative camber, giving the front more bite. Hell, camber gain ... that's a good thing!

Still with flexing upper mounts, install an STB, then the inward movement from the loaded side would transfer to the unloaded side, losing negative camber and dragging the inside tire around a turn. That's not good ...

And don't try to justify the inside shoring up the loaded side. Because if one side is flexing then the other side can't all of a sudden become an anchor. It doesn't work like that.

Stand two 4x4s on end and connect the two with a 2x4 across the top. Side load one of the 4x4s and tell me what happens. Its a crude analogy, but it makes the point.

I bought my first F-Car in 95 and been on a road course with one since 2000.