Van Gui1d3r #838

Has anyone compared the weights and possibly thought about a conversion? I see that vettes seem to use all aluminum and don't seem to have a huge aftermarket for lighter components like or f bodies do. One would assume that there is not much room for improvement... Has anyone compared the weights to even or lightest setups? I'd like to know if there is an unsprung weight advantage over or performance parts mainly. If so, like I assume, why hadn't anyone ever attempted a swap? Our spindles are cast iron or steel, vettes are aluminum forged... the weight difference there must be significant. Along with the composite leaf spring over or springs... I think it's 6or 8lbs total.... who knows? Chime in please

O and please leave the negative banter out. I'm asking people questions I'd like answers to. I don't want your opinions on my IQ level. Anyone who chimes in to all why or to say is stupid will just be ignored so save yourself the arthritis in your typing fingers.

M4N14C

iTrader: (3)

Interested also....

JD_AMG

Im sure someone can dig up weight difference numbers if they really searched, but I doubt you will find any 4th gens with conversions. Its simple really, with cutting and welding anything is possible, but the question is cost/time vs outcome. Its not worth the time and cost to try and redo the front suspension to a C5/6 setup when there would be little to gain by that and then you would have to try and mess with various spring rates and shocks to get it to actually work properly. Same deal with those leaf springs, while they will save some weight you will have added weight from fabrication plus a spring rate you may not want. Most don't want to put the time and effort in when aftermarket companies have bolt-in solutions. Its totally different when you see guys with 1st gens doing it, their stock suspension geometry isn't great and have a good reason to do the swap and mods. We already have a coilover/double A-arm setup that works well. You'd be better off trying to focus on making an IRS that works properly.

79_T/A

iTrader: (1)

If you are going through all the trouble to fabricate a new front suspension, why use factory parts? While the corvette parts might be better, they are still full of compromise for a mass produced car. You would see more benefit in designing your own suspension.

Van Gui1d3r #838

It's is a touchy subject on this forum. Too many asshats say is not worth it. I disagree but I don't want to discuss that now.

The main gain would have to be overall weight or else it's not worth it. The factory setup can be improved greatly but I've noticed no one offers a lightweight spindle which is extremely heavy where the vettes utilize an aluminum one along with aluminum control arms.

as for 79_T/A, the gain would be enough if it offered a few pounds less of unsprung mass to each side.

landstuhltaylor

iTrader: (6)

At that point you are better off grabbing a circle track catalog and building something from scratch with the specific geometry you want. Basically the entire reason C-C exists

79_T/A

iTrader: (1)

Van- yes, you would have a gain. I wouldn't dispute that. The corvette stuff is obviously going to be an improvement over f-body.

My point is, if you are going far enough to adapt the corvette parts, there are much better choices. Just like landstuhltaylor said, you can use off the shelf circle track parts (which are very cheap) and use your own geometry, without the design constraints of the corvette parts. A car like I described would crush one with corvette parts in it.

Another thing to add to my point. I've built and maintained corvettes that have won races in Grand Am and World Challenge competition. No stock corvette suspension parts ended up being used in hose cars. The stock stuff is too compromised for maximum performance, they are mass produced pieces for a mass produced car.

I think you have a really cool idea, but you can get a much bigger bang for the same buck if you look outside the GM parts bin.

Van Gui1d3r #838

I guess the reason I was looking into the GM bin was to get the parts easily and copy or mimic a proven setup really. I won't disagree that building a new setup wouldn't be better, I was just thinking it would be easier.

I would be interested in hearing about the aftermarket for them though, or even the aftermarket for the circle stuff. I'm interested in building a street car tart is race ready. Durability is #1 for me and performance is #1.5 if you know what I mean.

Van Gui1d3r #838

Got any links? I'm interested to see some stuff

eb110americana

iTrader: (4)

Ignoring the Corvette angle for a moment, I have always wondered why no one offers aluminum A-arms for our cars. All are basically welded tube steel. The spindle point is another good one for weight loss. When I redid my front suspension, I would have totally bought aluminum arms if they existed.

I agree on this 100%. The front of the car is already double-wishbone. This is one of the most advanced suspension designs conceived--even more advanced than the 5th and 6th gen's Macpherson struts. And it is paired with one of the most basic suspensions at the back. I have always wanted to Frankenstein in the independent rear from something great, but the investment is too steep--which is probably why so few have attempted this.

Van Gui1d3r #838

IT'S gets shot down by most on this forum for the cost vs return.

Without using any names, I spoke with a reputable individual on this site about it and he told me that. There is very little gain to have if any... He then told me I'm better off focusing my energy on reducing unsprung weight... well where he contradicts himself is that the irs will reduce the unsprung weight far beyond a set of wheels and lower control arms... pair that with a good set of wheels and you would have the lowest unsprung fbody on here. I lost respect for the man when it comes to theory and design.

All that aside, I'm saving up and collecting parts for an irs and I will eventually start a build thread, but that's not now.

What this thread was about was to focus on mainly the spindles. If anyone here had lifted one, you know what I mean. I have found lightweight tube steel ones but they are "NOT FOR STREET OR ROAD RACE USE"... and if a manufacturer will not stand behind their product in those environments, I don't want anything to dio with it on my car. I have yet to find anyone who makes a aluminum forged or even billet spindle for these cars. And while searching, i saw the stock vette stuff is so it sparked my imagination.

I would hate to believe that these cars are at their prime and have no more room for improvement. If so, I don't want anything to dio with them.

EVERYTHING CAN BE IMPROVED! It just depends on the time and money you would be willing to invest. I am willing to invest, it just takes time lol.

JD_AMG

In what context were you talking about?
You wanted to build a competitive race car didn't you? What class would you be competitive in with a custom IRS on a 4th gen? With those kind of mods you would likely be in some kind of "race car" type of class with guys running full tube chassis Lemans-like car with aero work and everything. - Im betting thats what he was getting at, sure a properly (with all the math done for roll center, wheel rate, suspension travel etc) setup IRS could be an improvement but you would be in such a high class the car wouldn't be competitive - therefore it would be a "waste" if you were building it specifically for winning a class.
Also there are a couple 4th gens with a C4 IRS swap on here, you can look that up.

As far as unpsrung mass goes you have to pick and choose what you can get away with and still having a strong enough part for road racing - this is why you see things like lightweight K-members and spindles that say "not for street use". Street and road race puts WAY more strain on parts than most of the lightweight drag parts can take.


There is always room for improvement, you just have to know what actually needs to be improved. What your thread should be asking is "what can I improve" instead of assuming what can be improved.
And again like in your last thread I suggest riding in a properly setup fbody, I could easily lie to you and tell you I have C5 control arms/spindles blah blah blah and without looking you would likely believe it because the car is so far above and beyond what a stock car feels like its as if its a different car.
If you want to go around cutting and welding build yourself a full frame for the car and do and IRS with proper geometry and proper springs/shocks.

Van Gui1d3r #838

I wasn't talking about a specific class or being competitive in whichever class it falls in. I would be happy with time trials and personally comparing the car to other modified f bodies because I just want the best fbody. Period.

[/QUOTE]
As far as unpsrung mass goes you have to pick and choose what you can get away with and still having a strong enough part for road racing - this is why you see things like lightweight K-members and spindles that say "not for street use". Street and road race puts WAY more strain on parts than most of the lightweight drag parts can take.[/QUOTE]

I'm aware. This is the entire reason for my tile being what it is. If a factory car such as a corvette comes with this stuff, surely it could work on another car off similar weight. Why couldn't it?


[/QUOTE]
There is always room for improvement, you just have to know what actually needs to be improved. What your thread should be asking is "what can I improve" instead of assuming what can be improved.
And again like in your last thread I suggest riding in a properly setup fbody, I could easily lie to you and tell you I have C5 control arms/spindles blah blah blah and without looking you would likely believe it because the car is so far above and beyond what a stock car feels like its as if its a different car.
If you want to go around cutting and welding build yourself a full frame for the car and do and IRS with proper geometry and proper springs/shocks.[/QUOTE]

If you told me you had one, I would ask about pics to prove it. If you didn't have the ***** to show it off after telling me about how awesome it was, I would assume you were full of **** or had horrible fabrication skills.


Back to the main topic, I feel I need to verify a few things to eliminate these responses.

•This is all based on improving unsprung weight.
•when I say race car, I mean a performance built machine to run on race tracks (not class specific)
•the car will be driven on the street, and wherever I can legally run it in competition (auto x, time trials, prototype, super modified)
•I don't care to win, personal satisfaction of building something that works well is what I'm going for.

call me nuts, but I'd like to compare my build against others builds. I want to test the abilities of the car before driver skill. Sure it takes a hell of a driver to drive a car at it's limits. I know this. But I want to build something that has high limits.

JD_AMG

And whoever you talked to didn't like the idea of an IRS or what?

Depends on how much you are willing to modify things to get a stock part from another car to work with it, problem is getting it to physically attach and work.
The Corvette has a frame, and the fbody is a unibody car. The Corvettes upper control arm is attached to its frame rail, the fbody doesn't really have a frame rail in the same sense, so you have to figure out where you would want to attach the upper control arm(where there is a place on the car that can take the load), as the spindle is much shorter than the fbody spindle so you cannot attach it anywhere near where factory upper A arm attaches. As I said in an above post building a frame for the car could solve this, also make a mounting point for IRS and have an overall stiffer structure.
You can make attachment points on the k-member for the lower control arms like the stock ones, and maybe weld up something to attach the upper control arms as well, but you may need to get rid of the shock towers.
JasonWW was messing with some stuff to get a smaller spindle to fit the car for lowering and different geometry, pretty sure nothing ever came of it but you can look at what he did.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspensio...spindle-5.html


You know what I meant by that... You need to compare a properly setup car for a baseline to see if what you do really does help. And you will be impressed with what one will be capable of.

Why not try and make a lightweight spindle and control arms yourself?

Van Gui1d3r #838

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No not at all. Told me to buy a corvette.

This is helpful. I wasn't considering this but I'll look into it.

Yes I know. Not too many around me though...

I don't not have a forge. I would rather I had forged aluminum. I also do not get access to the cnc machines I work on during my own time so billet ones are even it off the question. I guess I could speak with my buddy and get him to do a tube style up in CAD, that way I can at least see the amount of gusset work a tube steel one would require

79_T/A

iTrader: (1)

Van - I have some pictures saved somewhere of short spindle conversions. I just have to find them. I didn't forget about this thread.

Anyone who says changing the front suspension design won't net any performance gains is clueless. Will Stukas knocked something silly like 3 seconds off a lap at Road Atlanta in his 4th gen NASA American iron car by using a short fabbed steel spindle from Coleman Racing.

Van Gui1d3r #838

Yes any pics you find will be helpful. I'll have to look up his car. I'd like to see it too

JD_AMG

I don't think anyone said that.
You might not gain much by trying to get the corvette parts to work, but what you are talking about is a custom front suspension setup (not from a corvette) that I can safely assume he specifically made to alter geometry (im guessing more camber, caster and more travel), not just to save some weight.
Yes please do post pics.

zebrabeefj40

https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspensio...s-4th-gen.html

01ssreda4

iTrader: (96)

Seems silly to me but whatever. I think if I had your goal (whatever it is) I'd call Sam Strano up and pick his brain. I mean he does this for a living and could probably give you some excellent insight and answer for your questions like why an aftermarket spindle isnt made for the car and whats the next best solution.