Is there a sticky or FAQ about suspension bushings?
08-24-2005, 12:30 AM
#3
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My free photobucket account ran out of space so im in the process of moving all the pics from the first FAQ's to the new account and use it just for that. Sorry about the delay.
08-24-2005, 07:39 AM
#5
Originally Posted by stang killer
speaking of, does anyone know where I can find a good pic of the f-body Koni's. Both SA and DA would be great.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...sion_limit.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...GCkit7copy.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ear2edited.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3..._snap_ring.jpg
The DA bump or compression adjustment ****:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ry_Koni_DA.jpg
Carpet cutout for rear Koni's.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...hockaccess.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...r_Shocks_1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...r_Shocks_2.jpg
If you PM tyour e-mail address, I'll send you all my originals and you can see if any are worth using.
I've got a lot of pics of the Ground Control front conversions, also. Just a note, I repainted my shocks to a nicer shade of yellow and added the stickers, so they may not look exactly like they came out of the box.
I have acouple of DA pics from someone as they came out of the box. I'll send them all and you can see if any are usable for your thread.
08-24-2005, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by JasonWW
It seem like there should be one. What are our options up front, what type of bushings work best in what location?
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/1701/bushings.htm
08-24-2005, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Fulton 1
This may be of use in the interim - an old link, but a good one IMO.
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/1701/bushings.htm
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/1701/bushings.htm
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08-24-2005, 01:45 PM
#8
On the front you can use ES poly, Prothane poly, delrin, del-a-lum, rodends, rubber and in some locations it works better than others. Some bushings effect the ride quality more than others. Some bushings effect the handling more than others. There's so many variables, plus I don't even know what is available for certain bushings. Delrin for the uppers, but not lowers, etc...
Last edited by JasonWW; 08-25-2005 at 11:13 AM.
08-25-2005, 07:52 AM
#9
Gentlemen.... It's pretty insane to get in a fight about helping someone with an answer and discussing the wrong end of the car. I though some of my tirades were bad.
Second (just as a side note), if anyone is doing an FAQ, we have to assume that the person reading does not know that poly sucks in the rear, etc. So, you have to cover it all and educate from the ground up. That's the job of an FAQ, or at least that's my thought on it.
And, for the front.... It depends on what the bushing has to do. Such as the upper front control arms, you can use a solid bushing (it only pivots on one axis), a poly bushing (poly can "cold flow" or deform over time) or Delrin (which is probably the best). My Global West upper front a arms have delrin in them for that very reason.
The lower front arm has an interesting problem. One bushing is a "standard pivot" (hinge?) like the upper arms, and one is bolted in there sideways and deforms the bushing anytime the arm is not sticking 90 degrees out from the K member. Many are using a poly bushing there in an effort to eliminate castor change under load, but it is at the expense of some slight suspension binding. How much, I can't say (as I've not tried that approach yet). It does seem that the energy suspension castor bushing is prone to cracking and the Pro-thane has been much better in this regard. My preference would be to use a rod end in that location (rules and noise tolerance willing) and a poly or delrin (depending on what you can find) in the front position.
You may want to post this question on the other board and see what kind of an arguement we can stir up over there.....
Second (just as a side note), if anyone is doing an FAQ, we have to assume that the person reading does not know that poly sucks in the rear, etc. So, you have to cover it all and educate from the ground up. That's the job of an FAQ, or at least that's my thought on it.
And, for the front.... It depends on what the bushing has to do. Such as the upper front control arms, you can use a solid bushing (it only pivots on one axis), a poly bushing (poly can "cold flow" or deform over time) or Delrin (which is probably the best). My Global West upper front a arms have delrin in them for that very reason.
The lower front arm has an interesting problem. One bushing is a "standard pivot" (hinge?) like the upper arms, and one is bolted in there sideways and deforms the bushing anytime the arm is not sticking 90 degrees out from the K member. Many are using a poly bushing there in an effort to eliminate castor change under load, but it is at the expense of some slight suspension binding. How much, I can't say (as I've not tried that approach yet). It does seem that the energy suspension castor bushing is prone to cracking and the Pro-thane has been much better in this regard. My preference would be to use a rod end in that location (rules and noise tolerance willing) and a poly or delrin (depending on what you can find) in the front position.
You may want to post this question on the other board and see what kind of an arguement we can stir up over there.....
08-25-2005, 08:38 AM
#10
Can Delrin upper CA bushings be bought? I don't think I've ever seen them offered before. Do they replace the factory ones just like the poly ones slip in? Do you think the upper CA's even have enough deflection under cornering to warrant changing them out?
I would think that the rod end caster would make a lot of sense just because it the way that bushing pivots. When your going down the road and hit an expansion joint for instance, it seems like the tire will want to get pushed backwards more than it would want go up do to the vehicles weight pushing the tire down. The only thing keeping the tire from moving towards the rear would be that bushing. Surely the caster bushing will give a lot. I don't see how a caster change would be all that bad in a straight line, like on a daily driver. Replacing it with a rod end would help the caster only under cornering and give a harsh ride the other 99 percent of the time. So maybe a rubber or poly would be OK for the caster bushing.
The camber bushing seems to keep the LCA properly centered left and right (among other things). When you turn in quickly the camber bushing seems to be the first thing that would want to deflect which would create slack and a delay you would feel in the steering wheel. It may also increase ride harshness, but to a much smaller degree compared to the caster bushing. I would think a rod end would be the best choice there.
The upper CA bushings are so much further away from the spindle that they exert more leverage and consequently shouldn't deflect as much as the lower two bushings. I wish I knew just how much they can deflect under cornering loads to know whether they should even be replaced at all. I'm guessing that they would only have a small effect on ride quality if you replaced them with delrin or a similar hard material. Kevin, did you replace your upper arms by themselves. If so, did that one change effect the ride quality?
I figure that replacing the camber bushing with a rod end would prevent most of the camber loss while cornering and that the upper CA bushings would reduce it even more. Maybe then I could run less negative camber (like only .5 or .75) and maintain the good cornering grip as well as have the tires wear more evenly.
Has anyone seen our cars during heavy cornering? Does the suspension deflect a lot?
For those that have swapped their control arm bushings, did it make the steering more immediate? What did you swap to and how did it effect the ride quality?
I would think that the rod end caster would make a lot of sense just because it the way that bushing pivots. When your going down the road and hit an expansion joint for instance, it seems like the tire will want to get pushed backwards more than it would want go up do to the vehicles weight pushing the tire down. The only thing keeping the tire from moving towards the rear would be that bushing. Surely the caster bushing will give a lot. I don't see how a caster change would be all that bad in a straight line, like on a daily driver. Replacing it with a rod end would help the caster only under cornering and give a harsh ride the other 99 percent of the time. So maybe a rubber or poly would be OK for the caster bushing.
The camber bushing seems to keep the LCA properly centered left and right (among other things). When you turn in quickly the camber bushing seems to be the first thing that would want to deflect which would create slack and a delay you would feel in the steering wheel. It may also increase ride harshness, but to a much smaller degree compared to the caster bushing. I would think a rod end would be the best choice there.
The upper CA bushings are so much further away from the spindle that they exert more leverage and consequently shouldn't deflect as much as the lower two bushings. I wish I knew just how much they can deflect under cornering loads to know whether they should even be replaced at all. I'm guessing that they would only have a small effect on ride quality if you replaced them with delrin or a similar hard material. Kevin, did you replace your upper arms by themselves. If so, did that one change effect the ride quality?
I figure that replacing the camber bushing with a rod end would prevent most of the camber loss while cornering and that the upper CA bushings would reduce it even more. Maybe then I could run less negative camber (like only .5 or .75) and maintain the good cornering grip as well as have the tires wear more evenly.
Has anyone seen our cars during heavy cornering? Does the suspension deflect a lot?
For those that have swapped their control arm bushings, did it make the steering more immediate? What did you swap to and how did it effect the ride quality?
08-25-2005, 10:51 AM
#11
Originally Posted by JasonWW
Kevin, your a mod aren't you? If so, can you remove all this bickering and leave just the facts?
I don't know why this stuff has to go so off topic. Thanks.
I don't know why this stuff has to go so off topic. Thanks.
08-25-2005, 11:07 AM
#12
Originally Posted by JasonWW
Can Delrin upper CA bushings be bought? I don't think I've ever seen them offered before. Do they replace the factory ones just like the poly ones slip in? Do you think the upper CA's even have enough deflection under cornering to warrant changing them out?
I'm sure they can deflect, but I don't have a real good idea about exactly how much. I am using the Global west arms to allow more negative camber (and they are going on in a few days, so I have no real info on them yet....but soon).
Originally Posted by JasonWW
I would think that the rod end caster would make a lot of sense just because it the way that bushing pivots. When your going down the road and hit an expansion joint for instance, it seems like the tire will want to get pushed backwards more than it would want go up do to the vehicles weight pushing the tire down. The only thing keeping the tire from moving towards the rear would be that bushing. Surely the caster bushing will give a lot. I don't see how a caster change would be all that bad in a straight line, like on a daily driver. Replacing it with a rod end would help the caster only under cornering and give a harsh ride the other 99 percent of the time. So maybe a rubber or poly would be OK for the caster bushing.
Originally Posted by JasonWW
The camber bushing seems to keep the LCA properly centered left and right (among other things). When you turn in quickly the camber bushing seems to be the first thing that would want to deflect which would create slack and a delay you would feel in the steering wheel. It may also increase ride harshness, but to a much smaller degree compared to the caster bushing. I would think a rod end would be the best choice there.
The upper CA bushings are so much further away from the spindle that they exert more leverage and consequently shouldn't deflect as much as the lower two bushings. I wish I knew just how much they can deflect under cornering loads to know whether they should even be replaced at all. I'm guessing that they would only have a small effect on ride quality if you replaced them with delrin or a similar hard material. Kevin, did you replace your upper arms by themselves. If so, did that one change effect the ride quality?
The upper CA bushings are so much further away from the spindle that they exert more leverage and consequently shouldn't deflect as much as the lower two bushings. I wish I knew just how much they can deflect under cornering loads to know whether they should even be replaced at all. I'm guessing that they would only have a small effect on ride quality if you replaced them with delrin or a similar hard material. Kevin, did you replace your upper arms by themselves. If so, did that one change effect the ride quality?
I'd think the camber bushing is important, but under any braking load (and possibly in other cases), you may see sufficient load that you'd still flex the castor bushing, it's the "other pivot point" on that a arm and shares the loads seen by the arm. I'd probably address them both as a set.
Originally Posted by JasonWW
I figure that replacing the camber bushing with a rod end would prevent most of the camber loss while cornering and that the upper CA bushings would reduce it even more. Maybe then I could run less negative camber (like only .5 or .75) and maintain the good cornering grip as well as have the tires wear more evenly?
Originally Posted by JasonWW
Has anyone seen our cars during heavy cornering? Does the suspension deflect a lot?
08-25-2005, 11:25 AM
#14
Now it's back on track. I'd like this to be a helpfull thread.
I think I see what you mean about the caster bushing flexing under braking. If it throws off the toe it could make the car wonder around under hard braking, right? I have my stock rubber bushings and the car seems to stop straight. Hmmm, maybe it would be even more stable with a firmer caster bushing. So maybe the Prothane would be the best compromise there.
I've only seen the delrin and del-a-lum as part of a whole arm, also. I wonder if anyone carries them seperately? I don't even know what they are. A hard plastic? Hopefully someone can shed some light on this mess.
I think I see what you mean about the caster bushing flexing under braking. If it throws off the toe it could make the car wonder around under hard braking, right? I have my stock rubber bushings and the car seems to stop straight. Hmmm, maybe it would be even more stable with a firmer caster bushing. So maybe the Prothane would be the best compromise there.
I've only seen the delrin and del-a-lum as part of a whole arm, also. I wonder if anyone carries them seperately? I don't even know what they are. A hard plastic? Hopefully someone can shed some light on this mess.
08-25-2005, 12:56 PM
#15
Delrin is a high strength plastic (think Nylon, but much more durable). I beleive it was designed by Dupont. I know you can buy it to have bushings made from it, but I forget where my friend said he was going to order it from.
Check with aircraft spruce (google it), they may have it (but you'll still need it machined).
Check with aircraft spruce (google it), they may have it (but you'll still need it machined).
08-28-2005, 09:03 AM
#16
What engineer Jon Aadland had to say "the front camber locations (yes, they are by far the most important for deflection, and the least important for ride quality)".
That pretty much agrees with my guess about the camber bushing being the one that deflects the most while having the least effect on ride quality and the caster having the most effect on ride quality.
Due to the caster being mounted horizontally, it seems to implying most of it's load bearing is on a horizontal plane, meaning left/right and front/rear.
While the camber is mounted vertically implying most of it's load bearing is on a vertical plane, meaning left/right and up/down.
Theoretically, when you hit a bump while going down the road the front tires will try to resist going up due the weight of the car, spring rates and shock valving. So that would put most the the load on the tire pushing it backward. What's preventing the tire from moving backward? Only the caster bushing and I doubt it can compete with the springs and shocks as far as strength is concerned.
Seeing as I don't seem to have any stability probelms under braking, I may just replace the caster with the MOOG rubber bushing and buy a Prothane poly kit. (anyone know what they should cost? I saw one for $26, but that didn't seem right)
I could slap that Prothane poly camber bushing in, get it realigned and see the effect. I wonder how long it would last, most say poly camber doesn't last long at all. If I like the improved feel, I can go out and get a second set of junkyard lower arms and modify them to fit sperical bearings in the camber location and then decide whether to use my Prothane caster or a MOOG caster bushing.
I'd still have my Prothane upper A-arm bushings left over. If I felt the new lower arms with the spherical bearing and new caster bushing didn't get rid of enough of the flex, I could then replace those upper bushings.
That seems like a pretty good plan. When the front end is at full droop I think I could undo the camber bolt and then pry it down enough to get the torch in there to burn it out. Anyone done that before?
That pretty much agrees with my guess about the camber bushing being the one that deflects the most while having the least effect on ride quality and the caster having the most effect on ride quality.
Due to the caster being mounted horizontally, it seems to implying most of it's load bearing is on a horizontal plane, meaning left/right and front/rear.
While the camber is mounted vertically implying most of it's load bearing is on a vertical plane, meaning left/right and up/down.
Theoretically, when you hit a bump while going down the road the front tires will try to resist going up due the weight of the car, spring rates and shock valving. So that would put most the the load on the tire pushing it backward. What's preventing the tire from moving backward? Only the caster bushing and I doubt it can compete with the springs and shocks as far as strength is concerned.
Seeing as I don't seem to have any stability probelms under braking, I may just replace the caster with the MOOG rubber bushing and buy a Prothane poly kit. (anyone know what they should cost? I saw one for $26, but that didn't seem right)
I could slap that Prothane poly camber bushing in, get it realigned and see the effect. I wonder how long it would last, most say poly camber doesn't last long at all. If I like the improved feel, I can go out and get a second set of junkyard lower arms and modify them to fit sperical bearings in the camber location and then decide whether to use my Prothane caster or a MOOG caster bushing.
I'd still have my Prothane upper A-arm bushings left over. If I felt the new lower arms with the spherical bearing and new caster bushing didn't get rid of enough of the flex, I could then replace those upper bushings.
That seems like a pretty good plan. When the front end is at full droop I think I could undo the camber bolt and then pry it down enough to get the torch in there to burn it out. Anyone done that before?
Last edited by JasonWW; 08-28-2005 at 09:09 AM.
08-28-2005, 11:00 AM
#17
The problem with this thread is i dont know anything about suspension and i dont understand. At the very most, all this info should be broken down not only into information for people looking to modify suspension, but information people who've never thought about suspension could understand. Sure the caster, camber, toe, etc. are all commonly used terms for suspension especially considering alignment. But what does all that mean for someone who has never been anywhere past shocks and springs? not much
Anyway, i cant wait til this is turned into a FAQ so i can read it understandably. Educate me.
Anyway, i cant wait til this is turned into a FAQ so i can read it understandably. Educate me.
08-28-2005, 11:18 AM
#18
Originally Posted by spy2520
The problem with this thread is i dont know anything about suspension and i dont understand.
I don't know much about sizing impellers in turbos, but I don't go over to the Forced Induction thread and ask those guys to stop being so technical. You know what I mean? Everyone on LS1TECH has differing levels of understanding these cars, so you can't expect everyone to dumb everything down. It's just not practical.
I don't want to offend you, but I would suggest that if you are interested in learning the basics of suspensions, alignment, etc... that you focus on the basics first and not so much these technical threads.
Here's some pages that might help.
http://robmeadway.com/fbodysuspguide.html
http://www.ls2.com/forums/showthread...threadid=44564
I'm sure you could google "alignment" and find some basic info.
I'm sure there are already some FAQ's one other sites that can answer some stuff. Have you tried corner-carvers?
http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/index.php
Last edited by JasonWW; 02-08-2009 at 10:59 PM.
08-28-2005, 11:45 AM
#20
The main idea i am getting at is that this thread doesnt make it easy to jump in and figure out whats going on. The thing is i want to learn about this and i want to understand. The thread starter just pointed out that this isnt intended to be a learning thread which is understandable, there is nothing wrong with a technical FAQ, but help the rest of us out.
You gotta understand that i read threads about suspension parts that are about more than just shocks and springs waiting for the opportunity to jump in and figure out what the hell people are talking about. Hell, for all the threads i read about bushings i feel that ishould know something, but i dont, atleast not compared to you guys. But, for a thread to be so informative and so close to providing me and other memebers in the dark to finally understand more than basic stuff, i just feel left out thats all. I want to learn, and while this thread can teach me something, it is just hard to understand the infromation on here if oyu dont already know some of it. But, as i said, someone mentioned that this isnt a learning thread...i'll just hope for one in the near future.
You gotta understand that i read threads about suspension parts that are about more than just shocks and springs waiting for the opportunity to jump in and figure out what the hell people are talking about. Hell, for all the threads i read about bushings i feel that ishould know something, but i dont, atleast not compared to you guys. But, for a thread to be so informative and so close to providing me and other memebers in the dark to finally understand more than basic stuff, i just feel left out thats all. I want to learn, and while this thread can teach me something, it is just hard to understand the infromation on here if oyu dont already know some of it. But, as i said, someone mentioned that this isnt a learning thread...i'll just hope for one in the near future.