Can SFCs act as 'dental braces' on an already warped frame?
10-13-2005, 03:02 PM
#2
Banned
iTrader: (19)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: chitown
Posts: 1,879
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
if it's possible i'd say you'd have to get the double diamond type sfc's. but i don't think it will cure it... maybe if it's only slightly bad... IDK. i'm not a chassis suspension expert by anymeans.
10-13-2005, 04:21 PM
#5
I recently purchased a 1 owner 99 SS that had 104,000 miles on it and had T-tops. I asked the guy if he had sfcs and hadnt heard of them so I went out and bought a set of diamond styles off of ebay. I dont think I have anything to worry about being that my t tops still fit fine....door gaps are perfect...but the least little bump does make me cringe...Ill have to get them welded in VERY soon.
Trending Topics
10-13-2005, 05:56 PM
#9
TECH Apprentice
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Upland, CA
Posts: 389
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you mean that the car sounds like crappy and creaky going over train tracks, that's normal. Especially without SFCs. I highly doubt the frame is damaged because mine doesn't sound particularly fantastic while driving over potholes and train tracks either and it's never been wrecked. I have had it since new. It's just that the car is almost 7 years old and has some miles. I wouldn't make it a necessity. I'm sure it's fine.
10-13-2005, 06:59 PM
#10
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Brisbane, QLD, AUS
Posts: 1,747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Whisper
Even slight bumbs on the road bug me. When I go over train tracks I slow down to walking speed.
If there are still these types of NVH afterwards, then consider SFC's. I've seen several owners of f-bodies make these claims that SFC's will "cure" all sorts of NVH, but in reality, the F-body monocoque is very stable and consistent. Unless you are using high horsepower and drag racing, they're mostly placebo mod, otherwise they're mostly extra jacking points and added sprung weight.
To address the problem stated earlier, if you should use SFC's, you must straighten the monocoque out first, otherwise any alignment issues will not be solved. From that point, then some decent SFC's can hopefully reinforce the monocoque, but riding on a previously wrecked body that was involved in a serious accident is a no-no with out trying to get the chassis repaired as best as possible. As many might agree, a chassis in stable condition is imperative to reliable operation of any car, but SFC's aren't the ultimate cure to many NVH problems.
Last edited by Foxxton; 10-14-2005 at 03:16 AM.
10-13-2005, 07:18 PM
#12
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Brisbane, QLD, AUS
Posts: 1,747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The quote to weld them in is reasonable if it's done right. What I mean is that the suspension should be loaded and not the chassis. If the noises disappear, keep in mind that you're mostly fixing something else other then what's the problem, and the unsolved problems will get worse over time.
Just be aware than I used KBDD's on my 99 Camaro Z28 from approx. 62K to 103K and there was no change in NVH. Also my vehicle is at 118K, with approx. 40K of RR over its life, and guess what? No change in NVH from the SFC's. It should also be noted that this vehicle was a repo that was wrecked and properly repaired by its previous owner sometime in it's early life. It wasn't a serious wreck and it wasn't enough to cause serious fitment problems. The biggest improvement to remove the NVH was through replacing the worn out dampers and bushings. You did mention that the vehicle is around 104K, right?
Just be aware than I used KBDD's on my 99 Camaro Z28 from approx. 62K to 103K and there was no change in NVH. Also my vehicle is at 118K, with approx. 40K of RR over its life, and guess what? No change in NVH from the SFC's. It should also be noted that this vehicle was a repo that was wrecked and properly repaired by its previous owner sometime in it's early life. It wasn't a serious wreck and it wasn't enough to cause serious fitment problems. The biggest improvement to remove the NVH was through replacing the worn out dampers and bushings. You did mention that the vehicle is around 104K, right?
10-13-2005, 09:18 PM
#14
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Brisbane, QLD, AUS
Posts: 1,747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Whisper
108k now....the guy put on a front sway bar and some very spendy aftermarket shocks early in the cars life though as well. Got them from a site... rkmotorsports or something like that.
1. All f-bodies have front stabiliser bars, you probably mean a larger front stabiliser bar. This has nothing to do with the vibration, but the suspension bushings and/or worn endlinks on both front and rear stabiliser bars do create added NVH as they're worn. For this reason, I and experts here would recommend to check the bushings, and replace them, with or without SFC's.
2. There's word spendy isn't well descriptive. Even with expensive shocks in the early life of the car, they might need replacement or rebuild as well. There are many expensive shocks, but the problem is that it's not so much the expense or "improved aftermarket advertisment", but rather how the shock is engineered. When you mentioned the shocks, you didn't mention at least what brand they are. It appears you're just admiring that they're expensive because the previous owner told you so. Unless you knew what they did with the vehicle every second from the vehicles first minute out of the car lot, please be careful what previous owners swear by.
There are many things that many owners do to their vehicles that they think is an improvement, when it is only their perception, and not a real improvement. Many can agree or disagree, however there are experts in this forum that have identified the efficacy of these items, including SFC's. It's your vehicle, so do what you feel, because from what you are stating, it appears your desire is more for a placebo than actual improvement.
Last edited by Foxxton; 10-14-2005 at 03:12 AM.
10-14-2005, 08:38 PM
#15
Originally Posted by Foxxton
I understand where your responses are going, but
1. All f-bodies have front stabiliser bars, you probably mean a larger front stabiliser bar. This has nothing to do with the vibration, but the suspension bushings and/or worn endlinks on both front and rear stabiliser bars do create added NVH as they're worn. For this reason, I and experts here would recommend to check the bushings, and replace them, with or without SFC's.
2. There's word spendy isn't well descriptive. Even with expensive shocks in the early life of the car, they might need replacement or rebuild as well. There are many expensive shocks, but the problem is that it's not so much the expense or "improved aftermarket advertisment", but rather how the shock is engineered. When you mentioned the shocks, you didn't mention at least what brand they are. It appears you're just admiring that they're expensive because the previous owner told you so. Unless you knew what they did with the vehicle every second from the vehicles first minute out of the car lot, please be careful what previous owners swear by.
There are many things that many owners do to their vehicles that they think is an improvement, when it is only their perception, and not a real improvement. Many can agree or disagree, however there are experts in this forum that have identified the efficacy of these items, including SFC's. It's your vehicle, so do what you feel, because from what you are stating, it appears your desire is more for a placebo than actual improvement.
1. All f-bodies have front stabiliser bars, you probably mean a larger front stabiliser bar. This has nothing to do with the vibration, but the suspension bushings and/or worn endlinks on both front and rear stabiliser bars do create added NVH as they're worn. For this reason, I and experts here would recommend to check the bushings, and replace them, with or without SFC's.
2. There's word spendy isn't well descriptive. Even with expensive shocks in the early life of the car, they might need replacement or rebuild as well. There are many expensive shocks, but the problem is that it's not so much the expense or "improved aftermarket advertisment", but rather how the shock is engineered. When you mentioned the shocks, you didn't mention at least what brand they are. It appears you're just admiring that they're expensive because the previous owner told you so. Unless you knew what they did with the vehicle every second from the vehicles first minute out of the car lot, please be careful what previous owners swear by.
There are many things that many owners do to their vehicles that they think is an improvement, when it is only their perception, and not a real improvement. Many can agree or disagree, however there are experts in this forum that have identified the efficacy of these items, including SFC's. It's your vehicle, so do what you feel, because from what you are stating, it appears your desire is more for a placebo than actual improvement.
Foxtton I know youre trying to help me out but I think that my comment about the bumps and rail road tracks made you think I already have a problem. I dont...I just take extra extra precaution on bad roads and what not. I dont know if the owner replaced the parts you said are bad but i will definately ceck them or have them inspected and replaced if need be. I had been Camaro hunting for about 4 months before I actually bought one and saw that they are considered a MUST HAVE mod for T-top cars(as well as aftermarket torque arms...and perhaps something better than the 10bolt
)By the way...what does NVH stand for?
10-14-2005, 09:44 PM
#16
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Brisbane, QLD, AUS
Posts: 1,747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gotcha, that would be noise, vibration, and harshness, and no, they ARE NOT A MUST HAVE for T-TOPS, but are a MUST HAVE for CONVERTIBLES. I know, because mine is a T-top equipped 99 Z28 Camaro, and it has been through many rough miles, yet it hasn't developed rattles that can be cured by SFC's. Had both 2-point and KBDD 3-points, and they made NO DIFFERENCE in NVH.
Amazingly enough, I once debated on how the SFC's should be mounted, and guess what? The installer replied by saying that the chassis is a LOT stiffer than most think, and their tolernaces are negligible. So by what he is saying that it is okay by installing with the chassis loaded, then the chassis doesn't need it in the first place, why?, because the weight of the suspension components loading the chassis would yield substantially more kinetic force to twist the monocoque more than rough turns and bumps on a road course. If that's the case, then how would it "cure" the vibrations from going 55mph over a rough set of RailRoad tracks. It wouldn't, because that is the suspensions job in the first place.
As mentioned before not to begin a flame war, you ought to do a lot more research as many who AX and RR (autocross and road race) have quite a bit of experience on what mods are effective, while others are simply placebo. What you are reading and hearing is mostly a placebo effect. I know because if you read what I have stated above, you'll find that the experienced members here will agree that they are needed, but will not be able to substantiate why they need them, nor come to a total agreement of why they are supposedly needed.
Not to forget, you know those seams in the vehicle that are sealed by some sort of "glue"? Those would give way first before the T-tops will rattle and the "dimples" will appear, because those points are weaker than the rear panels and the T-top structure. Dash rattles will occur because if the dampers and the bushings aren't doing their work, then the vibrations will once again transfer to the chassis, then transfer to any loose interior trim which will then vibrate as well.
The case where I can agree where SFC's are mandatory would be high hp drag racing, and in that case, might as well get a roll cage, because those are way more cost effective. Also, the factory 10-bolt isn't junk, it just isn't strong enough for high hp and torque output coupled with extremely sticky tires. The problem comes into play when you have some sticky shoes and you perform burnouts, necessary for drag racing, not for the street.
Amazingly enough, I once debated on how the SFC's should be mounted, and guess what? The installer replied by saying that the chassis is a LOT stiffer than most think, and their tolernaces are negligible. So by what he is saying that it is okay by installing with the chassis loaded, then the chassis doesn't need it in the first place, why?, because the weight of the suspension components loading the chassis would yield substantially more kinetic force to twist the monocoque more than rough turns and bumps on a road course. If that's the case, then how would it "cure" the vibrations from going 55mph over a rough set of RailRoad tracks. It wouldn't, because that is the suspensions job in the first place.
As mentioned before not to begin a flame war, you ought to do a lot more research as many who AX and RR (autocross and road race) have quite a bit of experience on what mods are effective, while others are simply placebo. What you are reading and hearing is mostly a placebo effect. I know because if you read what I have stated above, you'll find that the experienced members here will agree that they are needed, but will not be able to substantiate why they need them, nor come to a total agreement of why they are supposedly needed.
Not to forget, you know those seams in the vehicle that are sealed by some sort of "glue"? Those would give way first before the T-tops will rattle and the "dimples" will appear, because those points are weaker than the rear panels and the T-top structure. Dash rattles will occur because if the dampers and the bushings aren't doing their work, then the vibrations will once again transfer to the chassis, then transfer to any loose interior trim which will then vibrate as well.
The case where I can agree where SFC's are mandatory would be high hp drag racing, and in that case, might as well get a roll cage, because those are way more cost effective. Also, the factory 10-bolt isn't junk, it just isn't strong enough for high hp and torque output coupled with extremely sticky tires. The problem comes into play when you have some sticky shoes and you perform burnouts, necessary for drag racing, not for the street.
Last edited by Foxxton; 10-14-2005 at 09:53 PM.
