May Spin

Hi all,

Now I understand, what springs and shocks do. But now when you start talking about sway bars, sub frame connectors, torque arms, relocation brackets, things start to get a little hazy.

And especially when you start combining these components.... The different combinations and end results seem to be endless. And things really start to get <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" /> to me.

Could someone take the time to explain all this to me?

And also, I want to lower the car, so other than springs what else will I need to do? I also want to stop that floating feel I get when at high speeds.

TIA. Scott. 00 WS6 M6

R U A LS1

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by May Spin:
<strong>Hi all,

Now I understand, what springs and shocks do. But now when you start talking about sway bars, sub frame connectors, torque arms, relocation brackets, things start to get a little hazy.

And especially when you start combining these components.... The different combinations and end results seem to be endless. And things really start to get <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" /> to me.

Could someone take the time to explain all this to me?

And also, I want to lower the car, so other than springs what else will I need to do? I also want to stop that floating feel I get when at high speeds.

TIA. Scott. 00 WS6 M6</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">sway bars simply help reduce body roll, although i dont know enough to tell you to what extent they help at the track others can coment on that. sub frames also reduce body flex and help maybe from a tenth to 3 tenths im guessing. torque arm help put your power to the ground and is more helpful when you put power mods on your car. Although there are guys that run sick times with the stock one. relocation brackets are used when you lower your car to get more use out of your lower control arms which also help plant the tires.
-------as far as lowering your car just springs will be ok, but if you start modding your car with more power and you want to plant the tires with LCA's, then youll have to get relocation brackets with them.

Bob2of3

iTrader: (11)

How are you gonna use the car? Spirited street driving, AutoX, Road course, Street racing or drag racing?

You'll get better answer if we know what you want the car to do after you spend the money for new parts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

LAter <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

quickWS6

No suspension will help you at the track unless you are not catching traction. A good torque arm probably helps the most, followed by lower control arms. If you want a good lowering, you will need springs, lower control arm relocation brackets, and an adjustable panhard rod. Go to www.bmrfabrication.com for the most "bang for the buck" suspension available.

May Spin

Thanks for the help so far.

I do go to the track, but I really would prefer a "spirited sreet driving" set up.

I know I want to lower the car to improve body roll, nose diving and looks.

It's all the other components and how they effect each other I get confused with.

Oh.... And as I said I would like to stop that floating feeling (I hope you get what I mean) I get when at high speeds. Will lowering stop that? And/or a tower brace. I'll stop now, i'm beginning to confuse myself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" />

I'm basically stock (other than lid), but using Nitto dr's if that makes any difference to your advice.

TIA. Scott. 00 WS6 M6

onfire

iTrader: (17)

Sounds like you're looking for a tigtht handling street car more than a drag car...the ws6 comes with a good set of sway bars (but you can get bigger ones aftermarket)...Since you're going to lower it anyway I would start with a set of Eibach springs front/back, a STB and 4 Bilstein shocks (Konis if you have an unlimited budget). Then see how it feels....that may be all the changes you need to get the "feel" you're looking for (it will definitely settle it down at speed)...you can always add larger bars,adjustable torque arm,etc later.

May Spin

Thank you all very much for your explinations and advice.

onfire - I'll do just as you suggest. Makes sense to me

RUA LS1 & quick WS6 mention relocation brackets. Am I correct in believing that this is to prevent wheel-hop? Given that I'm stock, even with dr's do you think I need them yet?

The reason why I ask, is when I first got the Nitto's I decided to clutch dump at approx 2k, And it felt like the rear end did a slight jump to the right before breaking loose (this was a different feeling I had with the F1's, they would just brake loose instantly). Was that wheel-hop? Or do you think I imagined it? If it was, will it become more pronounced when I do as onfire suggests?

Sorry for all the questions.

TIA. Scott. 00 WS6 M6

onfire

iTrader: (17)

If you're primarily street handling I wouldn't mess with lca brackets unless you lower the car over 1 inch...SLP makes factory spring/shock packages for the Hawk,SS and 1le that doesn't require the brackets...now if you lower it and do a lot of drag racing the brackets become more important due to launch geometry....same thing with an adjustable panhard bar...if you drop the car over 1 inch you'll need the panhard bar to center the rear diff properly....what you experienced was not wheel hop...it's generally pretty violent as the rear bounces...hard to mistake...if you do the springs.shocks and get seious about drag racing with ET Streets you can always add lca brackets at that time....I would only add/spend$ as it became necessary.

May Spin

onfire - Thanks, it's becoming clearer now.

Here's what I came up with so far with your help:

Springs - Eibach prokit. As this will drop me more than an inch, would you still recommend a PHR (if so I'll go with BMR).

shocks - Bilsteins. Z-Rated Motorsports show both the regular (HD's?) and the SLP valved ones (these are cheaper). What's the difference, and what will I notice in ride/handling?

Or I could go with the SLP Bilstein ultra perf. kit (for $1099, as shown on their site), which seems to include a lot more than what I had planned. Am I correct in believing that these shocks are the revalved Bilsteins and the springs are a SLP/Eibach variation? If so have you any idea on the drop this will give me?

Please continue to help me... I'm nearly there.

TIA. Scott. 00 WS6 M6.

<small>[ March 15, 2002, 04:24 PM: Message edited by: May Spin ]</small>

May Spin

Ok... Ignore that SLP Bilstein ultra perf. kit, just figured that was an option on new cars (I think).

I still need to know the difference between the HD's and the revalve ones, as well as the difference between the Eibach prokit and SLP/Eibach springs.

Thanks.

Bob2of3

iTrader: (11)

Well I don't know the difference between those shocks but for whatever situation you gonna be engaging in make should you have the proper tires to take full advantage of the mods you're planning

LAter <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

Bob2of3

iTrader: (11)

Also I'd give LG motorsports a call and tell them what you want and expect performance wise and do exactly like you're told <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

LAter

onfire

iTrader: (17)

I have the hd Bilsteins...the are slightly stiffer than the SLP's (slp is softer to be more oem)...You'll love the hd Bilsteins...not harsh at all but really steadies the ride.

May Spin

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Bob2of3:
<strong>Well I don't know the difference between those shocks but for whatever situation you gonna be engaging in make should you have the proper tires to take full advantage of the mods you're planning

LAter <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm wearing stock F1's up front and Nitto DR's out back.

LG Motorsports have helped me in the past (great company, imo). I didn't want to take up their time learning all this stuff without purchasing anything (I've found a set of 4 HD's for $299 elsewhere), that's why I'm bugging you guys for the info.

So I will start with:

Bilstein HD's.
Eibach Prokit.
BMR STB - (need to work out if it's worth The extra $$ to use the chrome moly over the standard).

I'll take onfire's advice and not spend more $$ than needed. After Install I'll do some measuring and see if I need a PHR, if so then I'll go with BMR.

Seems to me like a competent but budget concious setup (for street use). Unless anyone wants to give me anything else to think about, before I order.

Thanks everyone.

Scott. 00 WS6 M6.

<small>[ March 16, 2002, 02:50 AM: Message edited by: May Spin ]</small>

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by May Spin:
<strong>[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bob2of3:
[qb]

Seems to me like a competent but budget concious setup (for street use). Unless anyone wants to give me anything else to think about, before I order.

Thanks everyone.

Scott. 00 WS6 M6.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The best value isn't always the lower price.

BMR's components are quality made pieces and very competitively priced.

But with all due respect to Brett Rockey, they haven't fielded a car that has won multiple series championships in a 4th gen F-Body like LG Motorsports.

Like you, I began purchasing components from vendors and manufacturers based upon price. I wound up with a hodge podge of pieces that just didn't work well together, like BMR, G2, Hotchkiss, Granatelli, Spohn.

The first thing I had to admit was I really didn't understand chassis dynamics. I knew what the components were supposed to do, but never took into consideration how one component affected the next.

Consequently, I and wasted a lot of money and time on parts that were unnecessary and/or just didn't work with the other components. All that $$ and my car still pushed badly, just like it did off teh showroom floor.

Don't make the same mistake I did.

Go with a vendor/manufacturer that has a RACE designed, a RACE engineered and a RACE proven suspension package on a 4th Gen F-Body. You will be money ahead.

May Spin

mitchntx,

Maybe you could give me some examples of what you had in mind.

Remember I am looking for "street" set up, that is an improvement over stock but not necessary a full blown road course or autox set up.

Thanks. Scott. WS6 M6.

Jat19

Sorry to jump in May Spin. But keep asking away, I'm learning too.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> And thanks to all the people answering!!! <img border="0" alt="[hail]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_hail.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Fluffy]" title="" src="graemlins/fluffy.gif" />

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

All I can give is my experience and my opinion. It's not the final answer by any stretch of the imagination.

Here is my '98 TA's track set-up in order of importance:

Brakes - Autozone cheap rotors (you're gonna tear'em up) and Carbotech Panther Plus brake pads

Tires - Nitto 555R2 Extremes; BFG G-Force R1s

Seat time - practice, practice, practice The more laps I turn, the more I realize I don't know.

Quality alignemt - as much positive camber and negative caster possible and 1/16" toe OUT (Oh yeah ... it's a handful on the street)

Springs - G2 Super Springs (replaced my Eibachs because of rear spring rates)

Shocks - Bilstein HDs (off the shelf) Adjustability adds screw up potential ...

Seat/harness - Corbeau Forza and Simpson 5pt. Nothing can help handling better than using the steering wheel as a steering input device as opposed to a grab bar

poly/rod LCA - G2 design. Really freed up the *** end over teh poly/poly design.

Sways - ST 35mm solid front 21mm 1LE rear (I think I still need more rear bar or I could drop the front bar to match)

SFC - BMR boxed ... boxed because I can jack up the car NASCAR style.

STB/APHB - PHB to help align the rear ... STB not sure this does any good ... tried it both on and off, with no appreciable difference.

The f-Body is really a sweet handling car, right off the showroom floor, in comparison to all the other cars available. It has an inherent push that a decent track alignment will reduce substantially. And inspite of all you might hear or read, the brakes on teh LS1 F-body are very good. 12" rotor and dual piston mono block caliper is a sweet design ...

A "street" set-up just doesn't exist. When you begin setting up a suspension to handle higher G-Loads, you immediately begin to deteriorate the ride. Consequently, rattles are introduced, bumps become BUMPS and the car becomes a LOT less manageable. Also, the street is inconsistent on surfaces and conditions. Too much dirt, oil, trash, pedestrians to be able to take advantage of a suspension UPGRADE.

You need to decide what you want ...

If you want to make the car better and maintain streetability, then you should probably investigate the 1LE suspension packages GM offers for useage in SCCA SOLO 2 F-Stock class. It's a very nice package consisting of heavier springs and sways, stiffer rubber mounting points and Koni DA shocks. But please note, a true 1LE car, purchased for FS useage, is a stripper car ... which mean less weight. Again, a trade off.

Next, what is "good handling"? What does it feel like? Is it what the car does or is it what the car doesn't do?

To be honest ... I dunno. I've only driven MY car. I have nothing to compare it to. And that is the real test ... my idea of "good handling" vs yours.

I like how my car "feels" when bailing off into a corner at 100mph, tires howling and the rear dancing. It never feels out of control ... on the edge, but predictable and controllable. Does it "handle". I dunno. Maybe a good handling car could do the same thing at 110 or 120 and my car is a pig. Or maybe your car can only do it at 80. See my point?

"Handling" is such a relative term ... impossible to define.

And don't confuse "better handling" with different. I've personally felt a suspension component change help in a certain area only to discover it destroyed a previously good characterstic. A good example ... poly/poly LCAs. Helped a ton on wheel hop and tracking, but tightened up the rear end so much, I had to jam on the brakes to plant the front end, just to turn in. Net result? Slower lap times.

That is why I preach suspension packages, from vendors that have done the time consuming and expensive R&D on what works and what works TOGETHER.

I know I also preach G2 components. But Lou has proven to me numerous times that his designs, his engineering, his R&D will translate to POSITIVE results.

Try something ...

Go to Z28.com, LS1.com and this site's classifieds and do a search on used G2 or LG components for sale. Don't find much, do you. Do the same on BMR, Hotchkiss, Spohn ... a lot more.

There has to be a reason ... satisfaction.

Finally, don't let advertised retail pricing scare you away. Call Lou and ask him what a "package" deal would cost. Tell him what you want to do. Tell him what you've found out there. Lou is a businessman ... but he's a racer first.

HTH

May Spin

Wow, lot's of great info. Thanks.

I however, don't expect to go as complexed as you. You do bring up some good points on "what is better handling", the way different set up's communicate with the driver I would imagine to be very subjective.

My initial posts indicated that I was interested in lowering the car to improve nose diving/body roll, as well as looks. I also want to settle the car down at high speeds.

So... springs and shocks are at the to top my list. Why did you go with G2? How do they sit compared with the prokit? LG seem to promote Bilstein HD's with their kits and have heard good things from others, thats why I have taken an interest in them.

As simple as it sounds, I'm sure my (little) set-up will feel completly different than stock. Will the car handle better? Well, I'll have to see.

Oh.... I'll do as you recommend, calling LG on monday.

Thanks. Scott. 00 WS6 M6.

NoGo

iTrader: (2)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by mitchntx:
<strong>Quality alignemt - as much positive camber and negative caster possible and 1/16" toe OUT (Oh yeah ... it's a handful on the street)
HTH</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree with the toe out, but I thought it was negative camber, positive caster for better cornering ability.