Please help with brake pad education and selection
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Please help with brake pad education and selection
I did some searching, but didn't find the answer to my questions.
Can someone tell me the different advantages/disadvantages/options for brake pad compounds?
I'm leaning towards ceramics basically from what I vaguely remember reading about years ago, but don't really remember why.
By the way, I just ordered front blank rotors from Strano.
What I do want in pads in order of importance is: 1. QUIET 2. LOW DUST, 3. of course performance.
Thanks
Can someone tell me the different advantages/disadvantages/options for brake pad compounds?
I'm leaning towards ceramics basically from what I vaguely remember reading about years ago, but don't really remember why.
By the way, I just ordered front blank rotors from Strano.
What I do want in pads in order of importance is: 1. QUIET 2. LOW DUST, 3. of course performance.
Thanks
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Originally Posted by Screamin_Z
IMO call up Sam and he'll ask u about how u use ur car and what ur looking for then he'll suggest a set for u.
I found alot of info on here on rotors and calipers, but still in the dark about pads really, so any help is much appreciated.
Jay
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Originally Posted by mitchntx
That seems to be the pat answer around here.
Doesn't anyone think for themselves any more?
Doesn't anyone think for themselves any more?
EDIT: oh nevermind, I think I see what you meant.
Last edited by Shooter_Jay; 07-16-2006 at 10:20 PM.
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Originally Posted by chicane
Hawk HPS or Ferodo 2500.......
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How long do you want the rotors to last? Are you skillful at modulating your brake pedal?
Also, have you upgraded the fluid? That's something that people neglect when it comes to pedal feel.
Also, have you upgraded the fluid? That's something that people neglect when it comes to pedal feel.
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Originally Posted by Foxxtron
How long do you want the rotors to last? Are you skillful at modulating your brake pedal?
Also, have you upgraded the fluid? That's something that people neglect when it comes to pedal feel.
Also, have you upgraded the fluid? That's something that people neglect when it comes to pedal feel.
Upgrade fluid? I thought dot3 was dot3. Actually I have no complaints with the way it brakes except for the vibration.
As for modulating the brake pedal, I assume you mean don't just ride it at constant pressure, say on an off-ramp, press then let go, press then let go...yah I do that.
So are you saying some compounds will wear or heat/warp the rotors faster? Which pad material affects that in which way?
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essentially, you don't have to stick with DOT 3. You can use dot 4, dot 5.1 but whatever you do, do not use dot 5. If you don't have a spongy pedal so far, your fluid should be okay.
AFA the compounds, yes, however for the purpose of what you mention, we'll stick with "streetable" compounds. Many race/club race pads are absolutely out of the question due to their MOT's being higher and usually wearing out the rotors within practically a week with street use. In short, yes you can have a more aggressive street compound, however the tradeoffs can/will be decreased rotor life, more noise, and possible more dust. Having something so aggressive that feels like "throwing the boat anchors out" would be more suited to properly trained drivers rather than the driver that just stands on the pedal like it's just a button.
AFA the compounds, yes, however for the purpose of what you mention, we'll stick with "streetable" compounds. Many race/club race pads are absolutely out of the question due to their MOT's being higher and usually wearing out the rotors within practically a week with street use. In short, yes you can have a more aggressive street compound, however the tradeoffs can/will be decreased rotor life, more noise, and possible more dust. Having something so aggressive that feels like "throwing the boat anchors out" would be more suited to properly trained drivers rather than the driver that just stands on the pedal like it's just a button.
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Originally Posted by Shooter_Jay
Thanks for the suggestions, can you tell me why you recommend those? I'm looking for recommendations too, but looking more for the why.
Originally Posted by Shooter_Jay
So are you saying some compounds will wear or heat/warp the rotors faster? Which pad material affects that in which way?
First, lets purge ourselves of the term "warped".
In nearly every case, warped rotors are not physically warped at all. It is a common misconception that the rotors get hot enough to distort and then, upon cooling, end up looking like a pretzel. Contrary to popular belief, rotors simply do not warp in this fashion.
What most dont realize is what adherent and/or abrasive fricition is and how it effects brake operation. All brake pads operate in both modes and sometimes simultaneously. Typically though, most pads will operate in a primarily abrasive mode when they are cold and will then transition to an adherent mode as the brake temperature increases. This is why some pads require warming before they will be operating properly on track..... because they to go adherent before they exhibit their desired performance.
If you (or anyone) has ever used the ubiquitous Hawk Blue 9012 pads, then you know of what I speak. This material operates like a brake lathe (mega abrasive mode) until it gets hot enough to stop on a dime (ultra adherent mode.) Its also why you shouldnt run Hawk Blue pads on the street: the temperatures will never get hot enough to get out of the abrasive mode, and the rotors will pay the ultimate price.
Adherent friction. If you use primarily adherent pads on your car, chances are that your rotors will actually be thicker than when new. Why ?? It is because of the added thickness from the transfer layer material.
The vibration that is felt in the steering wheel is almost always caused by rotor thickness variation as a direct result of the caliper piston extending and retracting as it tries to follow a rotor of varying surface thickness. Thickness variation is initiated by an un even transfer layer of brake pad material on the rotor face.
Improper bed in of new brake pads and/or rotors is usually the culprit. Overheating the pad compounds can generate an uneven transfer layer as it leaves 'splotches' on the rotor face. In any case, the uneven transfer layer deposits will wear differently than the surrounding rotor material. On and on it goes...... until the the high spots and low spots can be felt in the rotor face and are severe enough to be felt in the pedal. Even less than 0.001" variation can be down right annoying.
Another common source of thickness variation is in the overheating of the rotor itself. It gets hot. Really hot. Then you rest you foot on the pedal at a stop light after hard use and where the pad was at rest, and it builds up a transfer layer in a localized area. Now, these 'hot spots' will wear more quickly, creating a thick and thin wear pattern on the rotor face.
But enough of my explaination..... everyone seems to think that rotors warp from heat.
But, following the bed instructions will cure you of the stated problems assoicated with pad/rotor bed-in and the requirements give you another good reason to take the car for a spin.......
Here is another good read from GRM article on brake pads
As is the venerable Stop Tech White Pages
And one on brake fluid
Last edited by chicane; 07-16-2006 at 07:51 PM.
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yeah, thanks very much for the enlightening info Chicane, you have set me in the right direction now. I will definitely need to check those links out. Thanks again.
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Originally Posted by Foxxtron
essentially, you don't have to stick with DOT 3. You can use dot 4, dot 5.1 but whatever you do, do not use dot 5. If you don't have a spongy pedal so far, your fluid should be okay.
AFA the compounds, yes, however for the purpose of what you mention, we'll stick with "streetable" compounds. Many race/club race pads are absolutely out of the question due to their MOT's being higher and usually wearing out the rotors within practically a week with street use. In short, yes you can have a more aggressive street compound, however the tradeoffs can/will be decreased rotor life, more noise, and possible more dust. Having something so aggressive that feels like "throwing the boat anchors out" would be more suited to properly trained drivers rather than the driver that just stands on the pedal like it's just a button.
AFA the compounds, yes, however for the purpose of what you mention, we'll stick with "streetable" compounds. Many race/club race pads are absolutely out of the question due to their MOT's being higher and usually wearing out the rotors within practically a week with street use. In short, yes you can have a more aggressive street compound, however the tradeoffs can/will be decreased rotor life, more noise, and possible more dust. Having something so aggressive that feels like "throwing the boat anchors out" would be more suited to properly trained drivers rather than the driver that just stands on the pedal like it's just a button.
Thanks again to both of you guys.
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so how do ceramic pads work, I'm guessing they don't transfer material, and work purely on friction? I didn't see anything yet on ceramics, but it looks like you don't bed them in? What is the drawback to ceramics why you guys don't use them, less performance and faster rotor wear?
Also, how do you guys bed yours without causing an accident or getting arrested? Ten times in a row 60 to 10 mph, definitely not going to do it on my own road heh.
I wonder if I could just clean the extra compound off my current rotors? I'll have to do more reading, skipped that section so far. Sometimes I envy the ignorance is bliss philosiphy crowd . I have to get to bed. Thanks again for the help.
Also, how do you guys bed yours without causing an accident or getting arrested? Ten times in a row 60 to 10 mph, definitely not going to do it on my own road heh.
I wonder if I could just clean the extra compound off my current rotors? I'll have to do more reading, skipped that section so far. Sometimes I envy the ignorance is bliss philosiphy crowd . I have to get to bed. Thanks again for the help.
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In all honesty, the best advice I can say is to not rest with mine or just one person's information. Basically, ask around a little more. As mentioned before, if you have such an aggressive pad, you will cause rotors to wear sooner. Even I don't prefer to have such an aggressive pad compound since what I have right now perfroms quite well, even with the proper modulation.
If you find yourself slamming on brakes quite often, then you ought to observe your driving style and adjust accordingly. FWIW, braking in any car involves much more than just the braking system itself.
If you find yourself slamming on brakes quite often, then you ought to observe your driving style and adjust accordingly. FWIW, braking in any car involves much more than just the braking system itself.
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well i guess ill throw in my 2 cents. My rotors on my car used to be badly warped. I replaced all the rotors with slotted rotors and at first i replaced all the pads with semi-mettalic pads. these pads were awful. maybe it was just the brand (Bendix) or semi-metallic is just a terrible compund. They were EXTREMELY noisy, generated enormous amounts of dust and brutalized my new rotors. (heat spots and i think im feeling a VERY slight warpage still today.) So I replaced the pads with HAWk performance ceramic pads. And wow, they are great. zero noise, and very low dust. As far as performance, I really havnt done much hard drving with them yet, but once theyre nice and seated in with the rotors, i will. I didnt go with the ceramic at first because of how hard ceramic pads are. I was worried that having too hard of a pad would warp the rotor, but the softer semi-metallics actually generated much more heat, which was hurting my rotors.
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Originally Posted by Foxxtron
In all honesty, the best advice I can say is to not rest with mine or just one person's information.
The best advice given in this thread so far. Hence, my informational offerings....
The Porterfield "R4-S" is another great pad. I have used these for years with excellent results.
Shooter- HRP World, Essex and Andy Porterfield all sell Ferodo.
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Thanks for all the help guys.
Still looking to verify the pros and cons specific to ceramic pads.
I'm guessing they don't transfer material to the rotor. This I would guess would wear a rotor thin over time...maybe killing the rotors faster. Is that true they don't transfer material?
I do know now that the ceramics are quieter and less dust, but how about braking performance relative to metallic and carbon metallic?
Still looking to verify the pros and cons specific to ceramic pads.
I'm guessing they don't transfer material to the rotor. This I would guess would wear a rotor thin over time...maybe killing the rotors faster. Is that true they don't transfer material?
I do know now that the ceramics are quieter and less dust, but how about braking performance relative to metallic and carbon metallic?