Someone needs to put together a spread sheet that will do the calculations that are outlined in this paper:

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/Th...%20Systems.pdf

I made a spread sheet but I would like someone else to do it as well so there is less chance of formula errors. By my calculations, even with a larger rotor, the actual torque applied to the wheel by the CTSV caliper is about the same as the stock f-body caliper. This is assuming that the same pads are used in each caliper.

As mentioned before, the CTSV caliper will improve brake feel, and the added mass of the 14" rotor will certainly help longevity on the road course. All I want to point out is that unless you seriously track your car, this upgrade will do very little for the average guy, driving on the street. Just trying to set a realistic expectation, that's all.

Andrew

 

This I knew from the beginning. My purpose for this setup is an inexpensive yet efficient brake package for those of us whose cars serve as a dual purpose vehicle (street/track). The standard C5 calipers would probably suffice for most people on the track...vs. the LS1 calipers that tend to spread during severe track duties. These will be overkill for most...but for the price, who cares? You would spend that much having a shop replace your whole stock front setup.

How many of us need 450rwhp? How many of us have that or more? Point is, we all like overkill.

Post your spreadsheet. I would be interested to see what our cars actually need. I like fancy things

 

u got to also take into account brake fade, the cts v will be less prone to it. so for a track car the cts v setup would be better, sure it might not yield to better stopping power off the bat but after a few laps the stock setup will get to hott and not perform were has the cts v will still perform.

 

Read my post again and you will see that I said all that.

Does anyone have the distance between the mounting lugs of the CTSV caliper?


Andrew

 

IIRC lug spacing is 5.05" (128mm) per my patterns.

As for performance, there's a lot of guys smarter than me who can do the math but an opposed 4 piston caliper will have more clamping force than a 2 piston caliper pushing against the pad and rotor any day. Hence, more stopping power, etc, etc. More factors come into play as well: pad compound, rotor mass (C6 ZO6 rotors are 27 lbs and made by DBA) and more. If that werent the case Cup cars would be running dual piston C5 calipers, right?

Ed

 

Ed.

Thanks for the lug spacing dimensions.

As to your other comments I will refer back to the StopTech paper listed in the above link. Cup cars don't run huge brakes unless they are racing one of the road courses.

Andrew

 

Actually they are pretty big...as far as the calipers are concerned anyways. I almost bought a set of their calipers not that long ago...pretty cheap too. Usually go for around 1k. 6pot brembos and aps.

 

What does "pretty big" mean? You can't judge the "size" of a caliper by the number of pistons or external dimensions. Calipers are size by piston bore size which determines the ultimate clamping force that the caliper can generate. A 4 piston caliper with large bore pistons can be way more effective than a 6 piston caliper with small pistons. A perfect example is the C6 Z06 caliper compared to the CTSV caliper.

CTSV caliper 46mm 40mm
C6 Z06 33mm 33mm 33mm

Which is is "bigger" and will provide move clamping force on the rotor given the same master cylinder size and foot pressure?

Andrew

 

You're absolutely right...there are many ways to achieve better braking. My above post was mainly in reply to yours and Ed's post. In comparison, the cup brakes are larger than ls1s. I don't remember what the piston sizes were on the ones I was looking at...there were only about 10 shelves full of them . I could find out though. Now you brought up master cylinders...we could start another whole thread on that...but might be worth discussing briefly. With the stock master and abs brake bias (or adjustable for those that deleted abs) comapared to piston diameter. This is where your spreadsheet could come in handy.

Either way, I believe we are getting a bit too technical. This is just supposed to be a cheap/effective big brake upgrade. We should leave complete brake re-engineering up to the pros. We could start another thread with heavy technical data. I'm up for a good read and a little education. After reading that stoptech paper I want to know more.

 

So what you're saying is that the LS1 Camaro caliper >= CTS-V caliper > C6Z06 caliper?

C6Z06 (6 piston): 33 + 33 + 33 = 99mm total
CTS-V (4 piston): 46 + 40 = 86mm total
LS1 Camaro (2 piston): 45 = 45mm total

This is from your info... so why are you in here trying to debunk this anyways? I've got nothing but repect for your projects and what I know of you, but I don't get what your point is here.

 

You must calculate the piston total piston area.

Area= Pi*r^2

Now do the calculation.

Andrew

 

The only way I see this as a great swap is if you already need new rotors, pads, and calipers, AND you plan on using the car for an occasional session on the autocross or road course, OR you just want the bling of a big *** caliper and rotor.

I am by no means putting the swap down. God knows I have spent a fortune on mods that are strictly cosmetic. I am just trying to get everyone to think about the realistic goals for their cars and do the upgrades because it makes sense for them, not because these are "bigger" and "better."

As for MC size, there really is nothing to discuss. Smaller bore MCs will generate more pressure at the caliper, given the same force applied by the foot, at the expense of an increased stroke, and vise versa.


Andrew

 

I knew I was missing something... but I still get similar results.

C6Z06 = 976 mm2
CTS-V = 847 mm2
LS1 F = 444 mm2

 

Well put. The "effective" part of my post was meant for track use. My fronts are ground to fit welds (previous owner)...so new brakes were already in the cards.

 

C6 Z06 33mm diameter

33/2=16.5=r=radius

3.14 x 16.5 x 16.5 = 855 mm^2

855 x 3 = 2565 mm^2 = Total caliper piston area

(some numbers were rounded)

Andrew

 

Yeah... I did that backwards...
Ok... got it.

C6Z06 = 2565 mm2
CTS-V = 2917 mm2
LS1 F = 1590 mm2

 

Now, with that being true, the CTS-V caliper should be MUCH more effective than our LS1/LT1 F-body calipers.

 

Check your math on the F body caliper. It has 2 45mm calipers.

Andrew

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something...

The C6Z06 has 6 piston calipers, the CTS-V has 4 piston, and the LS1 F-Body has 2 piston, correct?

If that's the case, then you can double all those numbers...

C6Z06 = 5130 mm2
CTS-V = 5834 mm2
LS1 F = 3180 mm2

 

To calculate total piston area you only count the area on one side of the rotor. The F-body caliper has the pistons on one side of the rotor, so you count them both. It took me a long time to wrap my mind around that concept, but it is true. I don't make this **** up...LOL

Andrew