CTS-V brakes, something different
05-26-2008, 02:21 PM
#241
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So that's what I was missing. But two pistons on one side of the rotor can't be as good as 2 pistons on one side, and two on the other, can it?
05-26-2008, 02:29 PM
#242
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So if you were to take 2 identical cars. One with the CTSV calipers and one with the f-fody calipers, everything else is the same. Same pads, rotor diameter, tires, everything the same except the calipers. If you were to run back to back 60-0 tests, the first 3-4 passes the braking performance would be almost identical. The stock F-body brakes may even stop the car in a short distance for the first couple of runs. Now if you were to keep running the 60-0 tests, say 10 times, you will see the benefits of the CTSV calipers. They will be less prone to fade and will give more consistent performance even with repeated stops. Add to that the 14" rotors and now you have an even more durable system that can dissipate even more heat.
Andrew
05-26-2008, 02:39 PM
#243
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Yeah... now it's making some sense to me. I've even had brake fade on the streets with these, so I'd definitely be interested in a setup like this.
05-26-2008, 07:52 PM
#245
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For those looking for some actuall verification of the performance capabilitys of these brakes check out this link. It's a GM blog describing how a new CTSV has recorded a sub-8 minute lap of the world renowned Nurburgring test track in Germany. It is believed that this is the quickest lap ever posted for a production sedan. The video is long but shows a lot of the brakes working to haul down the Cad.
http://cadillac.gmblogs.com/
Vernon
http://cadillac.gmblogs.com/
Vernon
05-26-2008, 07:55 PM
#246
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For those looking for some actuall verification of the performance capabilitys of these brakes check out this link. It's a GM blog describing how a new CTSV has recorded a sub-8 minute lap of the world renowned Nurburgring test track in Germany. It is believed that this is the quickest lap ever posted for a production sedan. The video is long but shows a lot of the brakes working to haul down the Cad.
http://cadillac.gmblogs.com/
Vernon
http://cadillac.gmblogs.com/
Vernon
05-26-2008, 08:01 PM
#247
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Kind of look like 6 pots in the vid...hard to tell though.
Confirmed: http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/08/d...d-with-550-hp/
They use a BREMBO 6 pot like the new ZR1.
Confirmed: http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/08/d...d-with-550-hp/
They use a BREMBO 6 pot like the new ZR1.
05-26-2008, 11:35 PM
#250
Frankly, calculating all those bore sizes and such is a bit more than I feel like messing with.
I did want to point out that there is another advantage of the 4 piston caliper. This has to do with the pad contacting the rotor surface. The stock 2 piston calipers are a floating design and the pistons push the inside pad against the rotor, then the caliper slides on it's guide pins to press the outside pads against the rotor. The pad on the inside can articulate it's angle due to the pistons, but the other pad can't. The net result is that the pads do not apply optimal pressure against the rotor.
A 4 piston caliper bolts solidly into place and having pistons on both sides allows the pads to articulate on both sides so that both pads apply even pressure against the rotor.
I wish I had some pics. Anybody?
Anyway, as the pads press against the spinning rotor, the leading edge will want to dig in and the trailing edge will not want to "dig in". This is where the staggering of the piston sizes helps. EDIT: The larger bore will want to apply more force so it is placed on the trailing edge.
Does all that make sense? Surely someone has a link that can better explain this principle.
A 4 piston caliper bolts solidly into place and having pistons on both sides allows the pads to articulate on both sides so that both pads apply even pressure against the rotor.
I wish I had some pics. Anybody?
Anyway, as the pads press against the spinning rotor, the leading edge will want to dig in and the trailing edge will not want to "dig in". This is where the staggering of the piston sizes helps. EDIT: The larger bore will want to apply more force so it is placed on the trailing edge.
Does all that make sense? Surely someone has a link that can better explain this principle.
Last edited by JasonWW; 05-27-2008 at 01:14 PM.
05-27-2008, 09:26 AM
#251
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You don't want to do a little simple math to see if an upgrade will actually perform in the matter that you hope? Sounds silly. Maybe I can sell you a 1/2 race cam, or maybe you want to really step it up and get a 3/4 race cam? How about throwing some "big ***" amps and "bad ***" speakers in the car? See my point?
As for your pad wear argument, I would like to point out a few things. The whole issue of uneven pad wear, is a non issue on street cars. The staggered bore in racing calipers were designed so that a team can get maximum life out of the brake pads. ON a race car weight is important, so calipers are size not only by the bore size but also by the pad size. The pad size dictates pad life. So in order to maximize the pad life the bore are staggered. The smaller bore piston apply LESS pressure than the bigger bore pistons. So the leading edge of the caliper applies less force and the trailing edge applies more force. Check out this diagram for reference:
Andrew
As for your pad wear argument, I would like to point out a few things. The whole issue of uneven pad wear, is a non issue on street cars. The staggered bore in racing calipers were designed so that a team can get maximum life out of the brake pads. ON a race car weight is important, so calipers are size not only by the bore size but also by the pad size. The pad size dictates pad life. So in order to maximize the pad life the bore are staggered. The smaller bore piston apply LESS pressure than the bigger bore pistons. So the leading edge of the caliper applies less force and the trailing edge applies more force. Check out this diagram for reference:
Andrew
05-27-2008, 01:12 PM
#252
You don't want to do a little simple math to see if an upgrade will actually perform in the matter that you hope? Sounds silly. Maybe I can sell you a 1/2 race cam, or maybe you want to really step it up and get a 3/4 race cam? How about throwing some "big ***" amps and "bad ***" speakers in the car? See my point?
As for your pad wear argument, I would like to point out a few things. The whole issue of uneven pad wear, is a non issue on street cars. The staggered bore in racing calipers were designed so that a team can get maximum life out of the brake pads. ON a race car weight is important, so calipers are size not only by the bore size but also by the pad size. The pad size dictates pad life. So in order to maximize the pad life the bore are staggered. The smaller bore piston apply LESS pressure than the bigger bore pistons. So the leading edge of the caliper applies less force and the trailing edge applies more force. Check out this diagram for reference:
Andrew
As for your pad wear argument, I would like to point out a few things. The whole issue of uneven pad wear, is a non issue on street cars. The staggered bore in racing calipers were designed so that a team can get maximum life out of the brake pads. ON a race car weight is important, so calipers are size not only by the bore size but also by the pad size. The pad size dictates pad life. So in order to maximize the pad life the bore are staggered. The smaller bore piston apply LESS pressure than the bigger bore pistons. So the leading edge of the caliper applies less force and the trailing edge applies more force. Check out this diagram for reference:
Andrew
05-27-2008, 02:53 PM
#254
Secondly, I'm not making any "argument". What I said is true. I could have just told everyone to go read up on how they work, but I decided to take the time and type it out a little to help some people. So don't make it sound like I thought this up or that it is my opinion. It's not. On top of that, I wasn't even talking about uneven pad wear. I don't know where you got that from. (I did make a correction about the smaller piston applying LESS force than the larger piston. I get those mixed up sometimes.)
Jason
05-27-2008, 07:49 PM
#255
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Okay guys, I just got back from meeting with Ed (super nice guy by the way). I have good news and bad news. First, let me start talking about diameter. The 14" setup cleared my 17"ZR1s...barely (1/8" if that). The overall diameter of rotor and caliper is roughly 14 7/8"...but due to the shape and orientation of the caliper you need about 16" of inner wheel clearance. My 18s ran into a bit of a problem. They are 2 piece wheels made in Italy. Where the spoke section bolts to the wheel ring there is a tiny lip that rubbed the caliper. But diameter was not an issue.
The problem is the same that was stated way earlier in this thread...spoke clearance. From the rotor hub (area where the wheel meets the rotor) to the outer (front) edge of the caliper is about 1 7/8". With the ZR1s, I doubt if we could have gotten the lug nuts on 2 threads. Big clearance issue. The same was the case with my 18s.
BUT...this applies to you JasonWW...if you had a wheel with NO lip the 14" setup will PROBABLY work. Reason I'm calling you out Jason is because you have C6 wheels. If the spokes are all the way out at the edge you should be fine. My 18s have a bit of a lip so the spokes are further toward the center. C6 Z06s should be okay also. ZR1s and other wheels would work with a small spacer...maybe 3/4" or so. If anyone with either of those wheels could measure the distance from the wheel hub to the inner surface of the spokes, that would be great.
For those of you with third gens running the 2" spacer in the front for 4th gen wheels, you are good to go...
The Z51 rotor is the same...but Ed said he could probably do a bracket for them. It would be like the bishop brackets and you would have to modify your spindles.
Ed said he will look into it further as he gets time, but the way it looks we are either going to have to run a spacer or go with a 2 piece rotor. With the 2 piece rotor, the price would go up...but it would still be cheaper then the actual Brembo kit.
Thanks again for your time today Ed!
The problem is the same that was stated way earlier in this thread...spoke clearance. From the rotor hub (area where the wheel meets the rotor) to the outer (front) edge of the caliper is about 1 7/8". With the ZR1s, I doubt if we could have gotten the lug nuts on 2 threads. Big clearance issue. The same was the case with my 18s.
BUT...this applies to you JasonWW...if you had a wheel with NO lip the 14" setup will PROBABLY work. Reason I'm calling you out Jason is because you have C6 wheels. If the spokes are all the way out at the edge you should be fine. My 18s have a bit of a lip so the spokes are further toward the center. C6 Z06s should be okay also. ZR1s and other wheels would work with a small spacer...maybe 3/4" or so. If anyone with either of those wheels could measure the distance from the wheel hub to the inner surface of the spokes, that would be great.
For those of you with third gens running the 2" spacer in the front for 4th gen wheels, you are good to go...
The Z51 rotor is the same...but Ed said he could probably do a bracket for them. It would be like the bishop brackets and you would have to modify your spindles.
Ed said he will look into it further as he gets time, but the way it looks we are either going to have to run a spacer or go with a 2 piece rotor. With the 2 piece rotor, the price would go up...but it would still be cheaper then the actual Brembo kit.
Thanks again for your time today Ed!
05-27-2008, 08:34 PM
#257
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Yes. Basically the rotor and caliper need to move back (away from the wheel) about 3/4" to clear the ZR1s. Coleman racing has hats and friction rings if you want to check out pricing. What sucks is, Ed and I can both get NASCAR hats by the arm load for next to nothing...but unfortunately they are the wrong lug pattern.
05-27-2008, 08:43 PM
#258
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I also think it could be done without an adapter bracket. I think if we mounted the caliper on the rear side of the spindle and tapped the spindle lugs it might be enough. Ed would have to verify this though. That is assuming we used a 2 piece rotor.
05-27-2008, 09:52 PM
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Yes, brembo, bear, wilwood, stoptech all make kits to fit. But they are pricey...2k range.
If your sig pic is current, you will probably be okay with this CTS-V setup since you have C6 wheels. If you want to take one off and take that measurement I posted above, we can find out for sure.
If your sig pic is current, you will probably be okay with this CTS-V setup since you have C6 wheels. If you want to take one off and take that measurement I posted above, we can find out for sure.