anyone running a de-coupled TA?
10-12-2006, 10:54 AM
#42
You can make racing expensive, but, autocross and spec classes (like CMC) allow you the option of making racing far more affordable than you might think. I'd find an autocross evevnt and get involved. You'll be amazed how much fun you'll have.
10-12-2006, 11:10 AM
#43
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Hey speedfreak,
The PHR height does not directly effect the TA. The PHR height changes the rear roll center and therefore the roll axis of the car. They are separate variable to some degree, and not everyone running PHR brackets is using the decoupled TA and vice vera.
The PHR height does not directly effect the TA. The PHR height changes the rear roll center and therefore the roll axis of the car. They are separate variable to some degree, and not everyone running PHR brackets is using the decoupled TA and vice vera.
10-12-2006, 10:39 PM
#44
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Originally Posted by UnbalancedEngineerin
The PHR height does not directly effect the TA. The PHR height changes the rear roll center and therefore the roll axis of the car. They are separate variable to some degree, and not everyone running PHR brackets is using the decoupled TA and vice vera.
A high percentage of people running the UETA have also lowered the PHR (though as mentioned earlier, mine is only lowered a little). That really says more about the mindset of the car owner than any inherent connection between the two (except for the vendor, of course
. Those open to trying things like a decoupled torque arm are likely to be just as open to trying a lowered PHR.Likewise, anyone who thinks one is a bad idea tends to think the other is as well.
So, the topics tend to come up together simply because all of the same people are involved.
10-13-2006, 07:58 AM
#45
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Let's divide torque arm operation into different phases:
1) corner exit
2) launch
3) braking
4) commuting
1) At the corner exit, I found that the UETA made things a lot less touchy. I can get on the gas harder and sooner. This one was basically a no-brainer: just drive it!
2) Launching may require some change in technique. Note that I am launching on sticky-but-stiff autocross tires in parking lots. On drag strip glue, YMMV. Basically, the harder you launch, the harder it hooks. I usually launch easy at around 2500~3000 rpm just to get a little drivetrain-saving wheelspin (10 bolt here) and then immediately go to full throttle. Unless the pavement is extremely slick, I just ignore the wheelspin altogether and it will just automatically hook and go without any feathering of the clutch or gas, and without smoking the tires. I can launch it with no wheelspin at all, but choose to let them spin just a little.
3) Braking is where all the tuning work may be, depending on your car setup. As long as the torque arm doesn't bottom in the safety loop, the brakes will be incredibly improved. You can brake later and harder without inducing axle hop. In fact, I can't make mine hop anymore, even if I try. When the arm is first installed however, it probably WILL bottom. Once that happens, the brake hop will be severe. Getting it adjusted to work right with street tires is easy. On a softer car (especially with stock LCAs), getting it right with race tires may take some work (already discussed at length on frrax.com). On a car that already has rod-ended LCAs (or probably poly, though that isn't the best choice for a car that turns corners) and somewhat stiffer springs, it should be fairly easy.
4) During commuting, the UETA isn't very noticeable. You may feel a slight thump through the seat if your shifting is sloppy, but not much. You probably won't hear the thump at all. You may also notice a very slight increase in gear/road noise from the rear end (as in, "Is something different? I'm not sure...."), but really an aftermarket shifter makes a bigger difference (and that's not much). Catbacks, lowering springs, and other performance mods make a much bigger difference in noise/vibration/ride. If there IS a lot of thumping, the arm isn't set up right
However, you may notice that mundane everday driving situations, like leaving a stoplight in the rain, braking in the rain, etc, are also improved.
1) corner exit
2) launch
3) braking
4) commuting
1) At the corner exit, I found that the UETA made things a lot less touchy. I can get on the gas harder and sooner. This one was basically a no-brainer: just drive it!
2) Launching may require some change in technique. Note that I am launching on sticky-but-stiff autocross tires in parking lots. On drag strip glue, YMMV. Basically, the harder you launch, the harder it hooks. I usually launch easy at around 2500~3000 rpm just to get a little drivetrain-saving wheelspin (10 bolt here) and then immediately go to full throttle. Unless the pavement is extremely slick, I just ignore the wheelspin altogether and it will just automatically hook and go without any feathering of the clutch or gas, and without smoking the tires. I can launch it with no wheelspin at all, but choose to let them spin just a little.
3) Braking is where all the tuning work may be, depending on your car setup. As long as the torque arm doesn't bottom in the safety loop, the brakes will be incredibly improved. You can brake later and harder without inducing axle hop. In fact, I can't make mine hop anymore, even if I try. When the arm is first installed however, it probably WILL bottom. Once that happens, the brake hop will be severe. Getting it adjusted to work right with street tires is easy. On a softer car (especially with stock LCAs), getting it right with race tires may take some work (already discussed at length on frrax.com). On a car that already has rod-ended LCAs (or probably poly, though that isn't the best choice for a car that turns corners) and somewhat stiffer springs, it should be fairly easy.
4) During commuting, the UETA isn't very noticeable. You may feel a slight thump through the seat if your shifting is sloppy, but not much. You probably won't hear the thump at all. You may also notice a very slight increase in gear/road noise from the rear end (as in, "Is something different? I'm not sure...."), but really an aftermarket shifter makes a bigger difference (and that's not much). Catbacks, lowering springs, and other performance mods make a much bigger difference in noise/vibration/ride. If there IS a lot of thumping, the arm isn't set up right
However, you may notice that mundane everday driving situations, like leaving a stoplight in the rain, braking in the rain, etc, are also improved.
10-13-2006, 05:15 PM
#46
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Originally Posted by trackbird
You can jump into autocross for the cost of entry fees. Run the car stock, or figure out where it runs with the current mods (whatever they are). You might not be in a class you can win at first, but it takes practice and experience to start winning in most cases anyway. Don't get discouraged, just show up, tell them you're new, ask for help and have fun. It's a blast and you can do it for pretty cheap.
and thanks for the write up sgarnett, btw what rear pads do you run with your UETA?
10-13-2006, 08:06 PM
#47
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I'm using the stock replacement brake pads from GM on the rear. These look a little different than the original pads, but they are made by PBR and look like semi-metallics.
At the front, I'm running PBR/Axxis Metal Master semi-metallics. For all I know, the front and rear may or may not be the exactly the same compound.
At the front, I'm running PBR/Axxis Metal Master semi-metallics. For all I know, the front and rear may or may not be the exactly the same compound.
10-13-2006, 08:43 PM
#48
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Originally Posted by z_speedfreak
so.. the panhard's bushing type doesnt effect anything with the TA but the position of it does? sorry, suspension physics and geometry is still pretty greek to me, but im learning
1) Yes, you need a good double-adjustable PHR with high-quality rod ends. Anyone who turns corners or uses wide tires needs one. This is one of the very few places where a race-suitable part really has no drawbacks for daily driving (due to the way a PHR is loaded, but that's another topic), so do it right the first time. Don't mess with poly, and don't mess with cheap rod ends. It will cost more to buy a cheap bar and upgrade the rod ends, than to just buy the right part up front. Sam and Jason both sell bars with high quality rod ends. Personally, I'd also insist on getting one that can be adjusted on the car (reverse threads at one end).
2) No, this is not inherently related to using a decoupled torque arm. However, clearance is tight in the tunnel, so a good PHR will make your life easier.
3) The only relationship between lowering the PHR and installing a decoupled torque arm is, as I said earlier, the fact that many of the same people have both. Lowering the PHR is an entirely separate issue from upgrading to a good rod-end double adjustable PHR (though lowering a crappy stock PHR would be foolish). You do NOT have to lower the PHR to use a decoupled torque arm.
4) LCA bushings ARE very important for setting up the UETA. The stock star bushings suck. The 1LE bushings are better, and are legal in the ESP autocross class. Double rod ends are probably best for UETA setup, but may affect the ride/noise. Several of us run a compromise setup, with a rod end at the rear of the LCA and a Howe rubber bushing (threaded like rod end, MUCH stiffer than a 1LE, but just soft enough for a decent ride) at the front of the LCA. These are described on frrax.com.
10-15-2006, 02:28 AM
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I guess I am going to have some work cut out for me next year. I have Sams suspension set up and I have an UETA ready to be installed soon. Looks like I will be looking for some new bushings for my LCA's.
Oh Yeh and I run on the west coast. So far Sams set up has worked for me. I am SFR(SCCA's biggest region), Sacramento, and Fresno regions SCCA ESP champion for 2006.
Oh Yeh and I run on the west coast. So far Sams set up has worked for me. I am SFR(SCCA's biggest region), Sacramento, and Fresno regions SCCA ESP champion for 2006.
10-15-2006, 06:32 AM
#51
Enough of us have tried enough things with the arm so far, we (especially Sean) should be able to help you get it set up well. Don't fret, I think you'll really like it.
10-16-2006, 12:37 PM
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Thanks for the details Sean. Brian, the UE TA has been setup on a few ESP cars with 1LE bushings and drastically different spring rates. Drop me a line and we can discuss the best options for your setup.
Jason S.
Jason S.
10-17-2006, 05:58 PM
#55
I just ordered Jason's rod end LCA's to celebrate the two year anniversary of my UETA 
Since my right wrist is still basically non-functional, maybe I should have gotten two left-hand rod-ends (inside joke).
Since my right wrist is still basically non-functional, maybe I should have gotten two left-hand rod-ends (inside joke). Last edited by JimMueller; 10-17-2006 at 07:18 PM.
10-18-2006, 12:27 AM
#56
Originally Posted by UnbalancedEngineerin
Nope, Everett WA.
12-30-2006, 05:02 PM
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Just read through this thread and several others about the UE TA.
I have some questions:
1) Is the reason for less axle hope during braking that moment arm becomes much longer instantly and the force needed to balance the moment (force into the rear springs) is much less, meaning the dampers don't have as much spring force or osillation to control?
2) If the above is correct, then the means that there will be more front end dive as well, correct?
3) Can't you control axle hope with stiffer dampers and slightly softer rear springs?
4) If there is more front end dive, then doens't this affect brake bias? If so, could the rears lock up more easily? (But not hoping)
I'm not critisizing anyone here, and I hope I don't come off like I am. I admire people who have innovative ideas like the UETA. The above are just some questions that popped into my head when I read the theory on how it works.
I have some questions:
1) Is the reason for less axle hope during braking that moment arm becomes much longer instantly and the force needed to balance the moment (force into the rear springs) is much less, meaning the dampers don't have as much spring force or osillation to control?
2) If the above is correct, then the means that there will be more front end dive as well, correct?
3) Can't you control axle hope with stiffer dampers and slightly softer rear springs?
4) If there is more front end dive, then doens't this affect brake bias? If so, could the rears lock up more easily? (But not hoping)
I'm not critisizing anyone here, and I hope I don't come off like I am. I admire people who have innovative ideas like the UETA. The above are just some questions that popped into my head when I read the theory on how it works.
