anyone running a de-coupled TA?
09-30-2006, 09:29 AM
#1
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anyone running a de-coupled TA? im going to be re-doing my suspension over the winter chipping away at it piece by piece, but right now im still trying to get my plans together so il know what i have ahead of me. so i stumbled across this sweet looking piece today, http://www.unbalancedengineering.com/Camaro/
its pretty pricey but it sounds like a quality piece and i understand the theory behind it so im considering it but im wondering if anyone here could give me some feedback on it? how does it compares to your typical H/D TA? any ET's before and after? autoXer's any thoughts? and how does it mount up? ..cause it looks like its still tranny mounted but idk.. any thoughts? ive havnt seen anything on these before
its pretty pricey but it sounds like a quality piece and i understand the theory behind it so im considering it but im wondering if anyone here could give me some feedback on it? how does it compares to your typical H/D TA? any ET's before and after? autoXer's any thoughts? and how does it mount up? ..cause it looks like its still tranny mounted but idk.. any thoughts? ive havnt seen anything on these before
09-30-2006, 12:23 PM
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They seem to be a great idea in theory, i've never run one. There is a nice discussion on them over at FRRAX.
http://frrax.com/rrforum/index.php?act=ST&f=3&t=2303&
It is something that I am going to have to look more into right now actually. This would probably be more AX or RR friendly than for a drag car. I'm still kinda skeptical on the arm just floating out there, and it seems like it would be a pain to change pinion angle? But it does look to be like the Ultimate solution, "long" arm to control brake hop and a short one to provide good squat.
Jon
http://frrax.com/rrforum/index.php?act=ST&f=3&t=2303&
It is something that I am going to have to look more into right now actually. This would probably be more AX or RR friendly than for a drag car. I'm still kinda skeptical on the arm just floating out there, and it seems like it would be a pain to change pinion angle? But it does look to be like the Ultimate solution, "long" arm to control brake hop and a short one to provide good squat.
Jon
Last edited by Jon B.; 09-30-2006 at 12:34 PM.
10-01-2006, 09:02 AM
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sweet, thanks for the link! its an interesting piece.. the mount still seems a little funny, but i guess it bolts up to the floorpan? they say you can tweak with the pinion angle more than anyone would want to tho. id like to see one on a fbod and take a ride, im curious as to how smooth it is going from decoupled to coupled, like what happens when your going WOT and then slam the brakes? is there a thunk or what?
10-01-2006, 03:11 PM
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There has GOT to be some noise, but I doubt it would be anymore than most people "complain" about in any aftermarket TQ. Arm. As far as I could gather the front mount is the same crossmember that everone else uses, just replacing the stock one. After looking through it again, it seems that it is relatively quiet. Re-reading that link lets me know about pinion angle as well, I am seriously going to consider going this route.
Jon
Jon
10-01-2006, 06:15 PM
#5
*raises hand* I think I have the 4th production unit. It's been on the car for about 2 years. I do absolutely zero drag racing.
The only noise I get is if the preload on the hard rubber snubber is wrong. The snubber will move away from the chassis during braking, then rise back to the chassis as the front end rises. It's just a thump. I haven't noticed it at all after switching to my current spring rates. It's more annoying to have the preload too low and have the arm bang against the bottom of the safety loop.
It's certainly more difficult to get it to work correctly on a softly sprung car, although Sean appears to have success with it - perhaps he'll chim in. It was not tested on these types of cars because it was more designed for road race applications. I think they tested with either a 3" or 3.5" driveshaft... I can't find my notes on it, though. It's a bit of a tight fit against the fuel lines, but no issues so far. If your exhaust hangs low, it may interfere with the chassis brace. Mine rubs, but I need new headers & intermediate pipe anyway so I'm just dealing with the rattle.
Off the top of my head:
Rear arm mounts in the stock location on differential. Attached is a threaded heim joint which minutely extends the length of the arm. You want the snubber to pull away from the chassis maybe a max of 1/4" during your hardest braking effort, although the safety loop prevents the arm from going too low (4", I think?)
The chassis piece is bolted to the rear passenger seat floorpan with 13 bolts, and six more bolts in the stock brace location (3 each side). You may need to remove the front passenger seat to get the third one on the passenger side under the carpet.
Unless you have the appropriately sized tools, adjusting the preload is tedious without removing the driveshaft.
The only noise I get is if the preload on the hard rubber snubber is wrong. The snubber will move away from the chassis during braking, then rise back to the chassis as the front end rises. It's just a thump. I haven't noticed it at all after switching to my current spring rates. It's more annoying to have the preload too low and have the arm bang against the bottom of the safety loop.
It's certainly more difficult to get it to work correctly on a softly sprung car, although Sean appears to have success with it - perhaps he'll chim in. It was not tested on these types of cars because it was more designed for road race applications. I think they tested with either a 3" or 3.5" driveshaft... I can't find my notes on it, though. It's a bit of a tight fit against the fuel lines, but no issues so far. If your exhaust hangs low, it may interfere with the chassis brace. Mine rubs, but I need new headers & intermediate pipe anyway so I'm just dealing with the rattle.
Off the top of my head:
Rear arm mounts in the stock location on differential. Attached is a threaded heim joint which minutely extends the length of the arm. You want the snubber to pull away from the chassis maybe a max of 1/4" during your hardest braking effort, although the safety loop prevents the arm from going too low (4", I think?)
The chassis piece is bolted to the rear passenger seat floorpan with 13 bolts, and six more bolts in the stock brace location (3 each side). You may need to remove the front passenger seat to get the third one on the passenger side under the carpet.
Unless you have the appropriately sized tools, adjusting the preload is tedious without removing the driveshaft.
10-03-2006, 11:46 AM
#6
If you read past threads much, you'll find I'm not in favor of such a torque arm. I've run them, and I don't like them.
I run a full length adjustable unit on my car. I don't run a dropped PHB, or huge springs. Basically I don't run what I consider the west coast setup, and the east coast cars were the ones that were on top this year when we raced.
I understand all the theory, I understand the want to tinker with a car. I don't understand trying to fix what isn't IMHO broken. All I can tell you is the proof is in the pudding and the results don't lie. I'd love to tell you I'm smarter than the next guy and built all kinds of fun toys to mess with. Alas, I'm just smart enough to not re-invent a wheel that's not square.
As for those who have made such things work, be careful. That's a relative term and you need to know what it's based on. Lots of folks say something works, like stock shocks on Sportlines.
I run a full length adjustable unit on my car. I don't run a dropped PHB, or huge springs. Basically I don't run what I consider the west coast setup, and the east coast cars were the ones that were on top this year when we raced.
I understand all the theory, I understand the want to tinker with a car. I don't understand trying to fix what isn't IMHO broken. All I can tell you is the proof is in the pudding and the results don't lie. I'd love to tell you I'm smarter than the next guy and built all kinds of fun toys to mess with. Alas, I'm just smart enough to not re-invent a wheel that's not square.
As for those who have made such things work, be careful. That's a relative term and you need to know what it's based on. Lots of folks say something works, like stock shocks on Sportlines.
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Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
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10-03-2006, 03:15 PM
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Sam,
As we all know, the one you drove was not set up correctly and I believe it was one of the first one or two events that it was on the car in question. I do not believe you've ever driven a car with eiter the PHR brackets or TA that was completely sorted.
For those that have made such things work "be careful"??? I must have missed something, do they explode if not watched?
Obviously, I have a bias since I developed the arm in question along with the PHR brackets and the "west coast" setup and Sam is biased as well since he wants to sell you a full length TA and his springs. From my perspective math, theory, and testing do not lie. For a broader perspective, do some searching on FRRAX.
As for the results at nationals, now much is driver, how much is tire (Hoosier vs. Kumo) and how much is setup?
To answer some of the other questions, there isn't really any noise at all in normal operation. If you jump from the gas to the brakes ect several times you will feel (more than hear) a mild thump.
As for adjusting pinion angle, this is done with shims under the snubber or on the TA chassis beam. It isn't all that difficult and with this TA, pinion angle doesn't impact traction much at all. You just want to keep it arround 0 for the U joints.
The shape is a PIA and was developed to maximize the small amount of space available in the stock tunnel. It does mount to the floor pan and to the g-load brace mounts.
Not trying to step on any toes, just wanted to voice my perspective,
Jason S.
As we all know, the one you drove was not set up correctly and I believe it was one of the first one or two events that it was on the car in question. I do not believe you've ever driven a car with eiter the PHR brackets or TA that was completely sorted.
For those that have made such things work "be careful"??? I must have missed something, do they explode if not watched?
Obviously, I have a bias since I developed the arm in question along with the PHR brackets and the "west coast" setup and Sam is biased as well since he wants to sell you a full length TA and his springs. From my perspective math, theory, and testing do not lie. For a broader perspective, do some searching on FRRAX.
As for the results at nationals, now much is driver, how much is tire (Hoosier vs. Kumo) and how much is setup?
To answer some of the other questions, there isn't really any noise at all in normal operation. If you jump from the gas to the brakes ect several times you will feel (more than hear) a mild thump.
As for adjusting pinion angle, this is done with shims under the snubber or on the TA chassis beam. It isn't all that difficult and with this TA, pinion angle doesn't impact traction much at all. You just want to keep it arround 0 for the U joints.
The shape is a PIA and was developed to maximize the small amount of space available in the stock tunnel. It does mount to the floor pan and to the g-load brace mounts.
Not trying to step on any toes, just wanted to voice my perspective,
Jason S.
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10-03-2006, 04:08 PM
#8
First it's Kumho, not Kumo. And I think the tire had little to do with it as 17 open classes were won on each tire, about as even as you could get.
And as for the driver's, well.... I'm now a 3 time National Champion. Mark Madarash has won twice. Tom Berry is a 3 time champion. Ken Motonishi is a 2 time champion. Mark Jorgensen was .090 behind me in 2004 and is fully capable of being National Champion. Bottom line, the class was deep with both talent and cars that aren't half-assed, and on both tires.
You can believe what you like about the cars I've driven, and I've driven more cars than you can shake a stick at (and you don't know half the cars I've driven). I could make the same statement about you. I don't believe you've driven a properly sorted car with a setup like mine. And I don't think you have. Your own car didn't have proper shocks (IMHO of course) for the spring rates you ran when your setup was more like mine.
As is usual, it's time to agree to disagree. I'll stand by my results, both past and current, and I'll put more stock in National wins over proven drivers than local experiences, but that's just me.
And I think the tire had little to do with it as 17 open classes were won on each tire, about as even as you could get. And as for the driver's, well.... I'm now a 3 time National Champion. Mark Madarash has won twice. Tom Berry is a 3 time champion. Ken Motonishi is a 2 time champion. Mark Jorgensen was .090 behind me in 2004 and is fully capable of being National Champion. Bottom line, the class was deep with both talent and cars that aren't half-assed, and on both tires.
You can believe what you like about the cars I've driven, and I've driven more cars than you can shake a stick at (and you don't know half the cars I've driven). I could make the same statement about you. I don't believe you've driven a properly sorted car with a setup like mine. And I don't think you have. Your own car didn't have proper shocks (IMHO of course) for the spring rates you ran when your setup was more like mine.
As is usual, it's time to agree to disagree. I'll stand by my results, both past and current, and I'll put more stock in National wins over proven drivers than local experiences, but that's just me.
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Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
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10-03-2006, 04:10 PM
#9
First it's Kumho, not Kumo. And I think the tire had little to do with it as 17 open classes were won on each tire, about as even as you could get.
And as for the driver's, well.... I'm now a 3 time National Champion. Mark Madarash has won twice. Tom Berry is a 3 time champion. Ken Motonishi is a 2 time champion. Mark Jorgensen was .090 behind me in 2004 and is fully capable of being National Champion. Bottom line, the class was deep with both talent and cars that aren't half-assed, and on both tires.
You can believe what you like about the cars I've driven, and I've driven more cars than you can shake a stick at (and you don't know half the cars I've driven). I could make the same statement about you. I don't believe you've driven a properly sorted car with a setup like mine. And I don't think you have. Your own car didn't have proper shocks (IMHO of course) for the spring rates you ran when your setup was more like mine.
As is usual, it's time to agree to disagree. I'll stand by my results, both past and current, and I'll put more stock in National wins over proven drivers than local experiences, but that's just me.
And if you peruse the Nationals results you'll find I also ran really, REALLY fast compared to some other classes on Hoosier's, Kumho's, and even slicks. I think that speaks well about the setup of my car.
And I think the tire had little to do with it as 17 open classes were won on each tire, about as even as you could get. And as for the driver's, well.... I'm now a 3 time National Champion. Mark Madarash has won twice. Tom Berry is a 3 time champion. Ken Motonishi is a 2 time champion. Mark Jorgensen was .090 behind me in 2004 and is fully capable of being National Champion. Bottom line, the class was deep with both talent and cars that aren't half-assed, and on both tires.
You can believe what you like about the cars I've driven, and I've driven more cars than you can shake a stick at (and you don't know half the cars I've driven). I could make the same statement about you. I don't believe you've driven a properly sorted car with a setup like mine. And I don't think you have. Your own car didn't have proper shocks (IMHO of course) for the spring rates you ran when your setup was more like mine.
As is usual, it's time to agree to disagree. I'll stand by my results, both past and current, and I'll put more stock in National wins over proven drivers than local experiences, but that's just me.
And if you peruse the Nationals results you'll find I also ran really, REALLY fast compared to some other classes on Hoosier's, Kumho's, and even slicks. I think that speaks well about the setup of my car.
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10-03-2006, 04:23 PM
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Once again, we disagree. I was mearly pointing out that there is more than one perspetive on the issue, especially since 3 (or was it 4 not sure who's car Fedja finished in) of the top 5 had a lowered PHR. I've never said mine was the only setup, nor that other setups don't work. I have maintained that a lowered PHR is easier to drive.
You knowing what I have and haven't driven is also valid. I've driven many, many cars on the west coast (f-body and other), and again just because I haven't won a national championship (too far from the left coast), I must not be able to think either
Jason S.
You knowing what I have and haven't driven is also valid. I've driven many, many cars on the west coast (f-body and other), and again just because I haven't won a national championship (too far from the left coast), I must not be able to think either
Jason S.
10-03-2006, 04:51 PM
#11
Well, proving your product is a integral part of the process I guess. I didn't say you couldn't think. But when you are talking about speed, the proof is in the results. I've stopped arguing with you about road race stuff despite having tracked my setups, seeing what was on the top A-Sedan cars in the US and how my setup was so similar. But I don't "road race" so was seen as ignorant.
Further information: I PAXed 11th out of almost 1200 people. We ran the dirtiest courses as we ran 1st heat (8 AM) on Tuesday/Wednesday. The top PAXing car was on Kumho's (I was on Hoosier's). 3 of the top 5 had lowered PHB's. The one in 1st didn't, and it won by 1.189 seconds and was the heaviest car in the class @ 3429 pounds (about 100 more than Botkin's car) and with a driver that weighs about twice as much too. The Talon that was 2nd and 4th on day one broke, I expect they would have been in there had they not and there is no PHB or TA argument to be made with them. FWIW, the 7th place car was one of "mine". Brian won his first Nationals trophy, and he did it without a tire warming co-driver.
I'm out. I suggest anyone consider both options take the time to call both Jason and myself for more detail as this won't get anyone anywhere.
Further information: I PAXed 11th out of almost 1200 people. We ran the dirtiest courses as we ran 1st heat (8 AM) on Tuesday/Wednesday. The top PAXing car was on Kumho's (I was on Hoosier's). 3 of the top 5 had lowered PHB's. The one in 1st didn't, and it won by 1.189 seconds and was the heaviest car in the class @ 3429 pounds (about 100 more than Botkin's car) and with a driver that weighs about twice as much too. The Talon that was 2nd and 4th on day one broke, I expect they would have been in there had they not and there is no PHB or TA argument to be made with them. FWIW, the 7th place car was one of "mine". Brian won his first Nationals trophy, and he did it without a tire warming co-driver.
I'm out. I suggest anyone consider both options take the time to call both Jason and myself for more detail as this won't get anyone anywhere.
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Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
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2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
10-03-2006, 05:00 PM
#12
Originally Posted by Sam Strano
I've run them, and I don't like them.
10-03-2006, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Jon A
Wow. I’ve seen some misleading statements before, but that’s a new low. Reading that one might actually think you’ve run them or something.
This is classic isn't it? The same person that believes 4130 is a better material for panhard bars than mild steel. I'll keep buying my parts from a degreed and licensed PE with winning RR cars.
First it's Kumho, not Kumo.
Last edited by RobMeadway; 10-03-2006 at 06:12 PM.
10-03-2006, 06:11 PM
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To clarify, I realize that Fedja's Talon doesn't have a PHR
However, he jumped into someone else's car to finish didn't he?
Again, my statements about tire and driver apply. How much faster could you have gone Sam if you'd been on the "Right" setup
As anyone who hasn't already guessed, this isn't a new topic of discussion for Sam and I.
In any case, I don't want to re-hash everything that's been beaten like a dead horse, I just wanted to bring some balance to the thread. Again, do a FRRAX search....
Jason "PE who can't spell" S.
However, he jumped into someone else's car to finish didn't he?
Again, my statements about tire and driver apply. How much faster could you have gone Sam if you'd been on the "Right" setup
As anyone who hasn't already guessed, this isn't a new topic of discussion for Sam and I.In any case, I don't want to re-hash everything that's been beaten like a dead horse, I just wanted to bring some balance to the thread. Again, do a FRRAX search....
Jason "PE who can't spell" S.
10-03-2006, 07:00 PM
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Thanks Mitch. I didn't bring those datapoints up since this was a TA discussion:
At mid Ohio I think 2-5 were under the influence. Unfortunatly a Mustang took 1st so I couldn't help him
The TA doesn't apply there of course since only stock TA's are legal. The PHR brackets were legal until Nick won all 3 races (including an invert) and reset the track record with them the 1st weekend they were on the car. Then we were banned until they re-wrote the rules :-\
Jason S.
At mid Ohio I think 2-5 were under the influence. Unfortunatly a Mustang took 1st so I couldn't help him
The TA doesn't apply there of course since only stock TA's are legal. The PHR brackets were legal until Nick won all 3 races (including an invert) and reset the track record with them the 1st weekend they were on the car. Then we were banned until they re-wrote the rules :-\
Jason S.
10-04-2006, 08:17 AM
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wow big debate going now.. so im more into corners then straights, especially since the nearest strip is about 200 miles away, but i dont want to run somin that will hurt my ET's either.. so how does this piece do at the strip?
some one has to have before and after times..?
wel thanks for all the responses guys, sean & sam, il be giving you guys a call im sure closer to decsion time i just bought a new DD so that set me back a bit but the car is off the road now & up on blocks getting ready.
and one last thing- what does lowering your PHB do?
Originally Posted by JimMueller
I do absolutely zero drag racing.
wel thanks for all the responses guys, sean & sam, il be giving you guys a call im sure closer to decsion time
i just bought a new DD so that set me back a bit but the car is off the road now & up on blocks getting ready.and one last thing- what does lowering your PHB do?
10-04-2006, 09:01 AM
#20
Originally Posted by z_speedfreak
what does lowering your PHB do?
You may be sorry you asked.....
http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/index.p...4&hl=lower+phb
http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/index.p...4&hl=lower+phb
http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/index.p...6&hl=lower+phb
Enjoy!