desertLS1

iTrader: (8)

Has anyone Heard about VDF VOGTLAND Fourth gen Lowering springs?
Part #959213

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Yes.

I don't run them because the rates are very, very different from what I feel the car needs. I have Vogtland make my springs for me, so it's not a quality issue so much as a "way they work and could be better" issue. Those rears are much stiffer, and the fronts are much softer than Strano springs. Being the car is a glorified pick-up (solid axle, not a lot of weight over it), putting too much spring on has a really bad effect on ride and stability on surfaces that aren't so smooth. And in front, more spring rate has little effect on ride because each front wheel carries so much weight (over 1100 pounds) and dampers have more to do the ride quality up there. But extra rate does lessen roll and pitch more, and you need a certain amount to not end up using the bumpstops as spring. Bumpstops when used like springs ride way worse than higher rate springs, and too little spring rate puts you on them hard and fast, which hurts and makes the car darty and sudden.

desertLS1

iTrader: (8)

Thanx Strano!
Ill prolly just save up and buy your set up!

reason im intersted is because my stock set up is just horrific as of right now, car has 67k and when i hit small bumbs i get this wierd clank noise from the rear driver side, like if something is loose. Any ideas?

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Your shocks are the issue now, not springs. But I'm sure you are thinking if you are doing one you might as well do the other and save time and labor (which is smart).

GETGONE

iTrader: (5)

Sam doesn't like it when I talk about my Vogtlands so I'll just say I have em.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

You can talk about them all you want. I sell them too..... I just don't think it serves a purpose to discuss things without detail. Considering I sell Vogtland and have them make my springs, it would have been silly of me to make my own (to very different specs) if I didn't think I could do it better.

I have NO issue with anyone discussing products (whether I sell them or not). I just think that buying parts should be based upon more than what amount to a poll of folks saying "I have these and like them". Ever notice I, and my customers, tend to invoke more specifics about things than others? I will not apologize for details mattering to me, I think that's what makes my customers happy.

GETGONE

iTrader: (5)

Just as I expected. I can't even say I own them without a 2 paragraph rant from you.

z28bryan

iTrader: (7)

If someone makes a thread asking for a recommendation and someone says they recommend something that I don't agree with, then I'll post reasons why I would make a different choice. I try to only post when I am confident in a specific area. No one has to listen to my advice. If someone takes my recommendations personally, I could care less. When I can, I like helping people learn so they can make their own decisions.

Sam explained and gave reasons why the normal Vogtland springs are overkill for the rear. No one has to listen to his advice either, but I'd trust Sam more than 100 avg Joes from this message board saying "You should get thing X because I have it and haven't had any problems".

Instead of complaining and being butt hurt, just explain why you like the Vogtland springs.

GETGONE

iTrader: (5)

I'm not butt hurt, I'm just tired of getting ripped on when I say I have something and explain MY experience with it. Just because I don't do things the way everyone else does, doesn't make it wrong, just different.

Sam claims they have too high a rear spring rate, but that is only what he knows from reading the specs. I had them on my car at first with Tokico shocks. The car was BOTTOMING OUT over large bumps. IF they were really that high of a spring rate as he describes, then it would have been jumping off the pavement. I've driven various trucks for years so I know what having too stiff of a rear suspension with little weight feels like. The car never jumped around over bumps like an oversprung pickup would. I changed over to Koni shocks and haven't had an issue with them bottoming out yet. I had read up on what I could find on these springs before I bought them and found that the springs highest spring rate is when the spring is compressed beyond where the bumpstop will keep it from traveling to while in the car. The fronts rode great with the Tokico shocks and still feel the same with the Konis I put on. I feels only slightly stiffer than stock but rides very nice over bumpy and uneven roads(I live in Michigan, ask me about bad roads). I've pushed it hard into corners on the road and it doesn't twitch, jump, or give me any other negative reactions that would cause me to believe there is anything wrong with the spring rates. I've also drag raced it and still pull 1.8x 60' times, the same as what I had with the stock suspension, so I didn't lose anything there like I thought I would being lowered.

JD_AMG

You are taking things WAY out of hand here.
Sam said:
"I don't run them because the rates are very, very different from what I feel the car needs."
He is giving his own opinion, he is not saying "wrong" or "right."
Seeing that he has years of experience driving, and multiple wins, I think he has the right to state what he feels is "better" for handling...

So other than looking at the specs, how are you supposed to know???
No actually it would cause the car to either understeer or oversteer more...

hpjunky98

iTrader: (3)

What your going to find is all else equal, your setup is going to be more prone to oversteer compared to a more neutral setup like the Strano or Mac springs. The front of the car could be stiffer, to help turn in and nose dive while braking, and the rear could be softer to help the car feel more balanced around a corner and less prone to snap oversteer. Your setup isn't a bad one, you have some badass shocks, and your springs are not the worst in the world. Sam never said that the springs your running are crap. Hes a sponsor. He sells a product specialized for handling applications for F-bodys, and he knows his **** better than you or I ever will. Why don't you calm down and just give your opinion and move on. He never had a "2 paragraph rant" like you said. He just tried to tell you why he wouldn't run your springs in an optimized setup and attempted to explain why.

Stop bitching...

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Here is my 2 paragraph rant (actually it's my explaining what I think it happening, with some technical detail for relevance).

Your opinion is that, and you are entitled to it. Have you used other springs? No. You seem to think that "bottoming out" (and by that I'd estimate you are speaking of hard rear impacts) is because of the springs, and it is not, it is due to dampers. If you were to look at the rear axle, you'd find a clean spot where you still hit the bumpstops. It's better now because you changed to better shocks in the Koni's. The extra spring rate didn't make for less harsh impacts, the shocks did. So why run extra rate?

But, what do I know? I've only tried about a thousand setups and can speak directly the differences. The fact you like what you have it just fine. But I'm allowed an opinion as well, and being that I've had direct experience with different springs, and can and do explain why I feel a certain way doesn't make me a bully, or wrong. It's background information and it's information I feel it both relevant to the discussion and important. I don't run rear rates nearly as high as you do. Works for me, my car clearly handles pretty well. I've made a lot of folks happy with what I do.

Seems to me what it comes down to is that you are unhappy your opinion might count less to some people. I don't really think that's the case. We are two guys with opinions. However, I think when folks disect the opinions they are looking for details that help them with the decision they are about to make.

I'll again point out the car "bottomed out" with the high rate Vogtland's and Tokico's. It does not, or is at least better with the Vogtland's and Koni's. The springs did not change, the dampers did. The spring rate itself did not stop those harder impacts from happening--the shocks did. Which is why, I'm always so adamant about good shocks. Don't worry, there are lots of folks who think I'm wrong about needing good dampers as well and from time to time get bent out of shape about it. I can't please everyone, as much as I try......

z28bryan

iTrader: (7)

I have a question about the "rear going airborn" subject. I was thinking that less shock dampening would help keep the car on the ground and when you turn up the shocks (rebound?) that you would increase your chances of putting the rear end airborn over highway bumps.

Am I right or wrong or is there no relation?

hpjunky98

iTrader: (3)

Your right...kind of. Increasing rear rebound rates too much will make the rear less stable during braking into a corner, and more prone to a loss of traction. Ive never put the rear in the air on the highway though. That would be caused by some crappy or blown shocks and way to much spring in the rear and a very big bump.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Rebound damping controls the rate of movement. If you crest a hill quickly, the car will want to continue up while the road drops. Less rebound makes this happen more quickly. If you want the car better tied down to the road you'd want MORE rebound control, not less.

I think in your example there might be a little mis-understading or mixed interpretation of how rebound and compression work and when. Compression damping is more responsible for how supple things are, and how well the tires follow particularly sharp bumps in the road. Too much makes the tires jump around and loose contact. Too little makes the car hit such bumps like someone who's tires running combat boots. Clunky.

hpjunky98

iTrader: (3)

The rebound rate being higher, all else equal would make the rear less stable during breaking though correct? The way i understand it, as the car is braking, the rear will want to move up, but the shocks will not want to rebound as fast as they could in a lower setting, and this in effect will "pull" the tires away from the asphalt, resulting in less traction to the rear . Is this correct or am i missing something? Thats the reason i have my rear shocks on full soft right now...

z28bryan

iTrader: (7)

I see, that makes sense. So if Tokicos had low compression settings, then the high rate springs won't actually jump off the ground like GETGONE was thinking. It would have more to do with how much compression the shocks have.