Watts Link--F-body (it's real and we're taking pre-orders)
07-23-2008, 11:14 AM
#63
It is legal for E-Street Prepared class in SCCA.
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Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
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13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
07-23-2008, 01:59 PM
#64
Now I see... Amazing what a little communication will get you. 
If a car can squat that much, then the arc of the PHB can most certainly become a factor, and the watts link doesn't allow the body/axle relationship to change left and right at all, unlike a PHB. It allows the axle to move purely up and down, no lateral change regardless of ride height or roll.
So in this context, I guess it could work for you. Again, not my bag really and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I guess it's not any different than those guys not knowing the tricks to turning corners--it's not their thing.
If a car can squat that much, then the arc of the PHB can most certainly become a factor, and the watts link doesn't allow the body/axle relationship to change left and right at all, unlike a PHB. It allows the axle to move purely up and down, no lateral change regardless of ride height or roll.
So in this context, I guess it could work for you. Again, not my bag really and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I guess it's not any different than those guys not knowing the tricks to turning corners--it's not their thing.
I saw the thread on this, and it did strike me as intresting. I would like to ask Madman what he thinks of this actually, he would proabbly be the one that would know.
07-23-2008, 08:05 PM
#65
It'll be close.... But if anything I think you'll gain just a touch more room since the top of the Watts runs straight out to the left for a much longer distance then the stock upper PHB brace does (notice how it angles up).
As much as I hate to say it, you know how it is with custom parts like duals.... really a matter of how well they fit to start with. R&D on new items is generally done on pretty stock cars because that's what most cars are. I reiterate that I think you'd gain room, but I can't guarantee that. I'm 99.98% postitive you won't lose an ounce of room.
As much as I hate to say it, you know how it is with custom parts like duals.... really a matter of how well they fit to start with. R&D on new items is generally done on pretty stock cars because that's what most cars are. I reiterate that I think you'd gain room, but I can't guarantee that. I'm 99.98% postitive you won't lose an ounce of room.
alright cool. As hard as it is to tell by that pic, it clears the upper PHR by about a 1/2"..maybe a little less. so if i dont lose clearance i should be good. i think this will be my winter mod this year
last year was your springs/shocks/sways, this year will finish the setup again (for now) 
07-24-2008, 01:59 AM
#67
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i had been drawing up some plans to actually implement this myself...but hell since you did it for me why complain, im glad i wasn't the only one thinking of it
07-25-2008, 03:35 AM
#68
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Quick question on the watts.
Right now I'm planning out my suspension upgrades.
I'm thinking of getting a set of Koni 4/3 setup and Strano sway bars.
I'll be using stock springs because my car is a daily driver. I drive on
some crappy roads and very steep hills. Plus I have catted long tubes
so ground clearance is very important. When the car is retired from daily
driver duty I'll get Strano springs.
Are there issues with a watts link on stock height setups?
Right now I'm planning out my suspension upgrades.
I'm thinking of getting a set of Koni 4/3 setup and Strano sway bars.
I'll be using stock springs because my car is a daily driver. I drive on
some crappy roads and very steep hills. Plus I have catted long tubes
so ground clearance is very important. When the car is retired from daily
driver duty I'll get Strano springs.
Are there issues with a watts link on stock height setups?
07-25-2008, 10:46 AM
#69
No issues. Watts works at stock heights, or on lowered cars.
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www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
07-25-2008, 12:27 PM
#70
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Sam,
Just a quick question. From the photos, it looks like the pivot points where the watts links attach to the axle are at different heights. One of the issues with 'unlevel' panhard bars is that they impose a different vertical load on the axle in right hand turns than in left hand turns, and can cause the rear to become upset during rapid transitions. Is this the case with an 'unlevel' watts linkage?
Just a quick question. From the photos, it looks like the pivot points where the watts links attach to the axle are at different heights. One of the issues with 'unlevel' panhard bars is that they impose a different vertical load on the axle in right hand turns than in left hand turns, and can cause the rear to become upset during rapid transitions. Is this the case with an 'unlevel' watts linkage?
07-25-2008, 12:41 PM
#71
No, that is not how a Watts link works.
Please fella's--watch some of the video links I originally posted. You can see the watts in action and how it causes no jacking effect. The whole point of a watts link is to balance the forces. When one side is pulled the other is pushed an equal amount. The propeller balances the movement. Basically it's a balance bar.
And fwiw, the issue isn't just with "unlevel" PHB's, because at any point other than when a car is sitting static the PHB becomes crooked due to body roll and suspension movement. It can start level, but dynamically doesn't stay that way which is why the roll center is always moving up and down.
Please fella's--watch some of the video links I originally posted. You can see the watts in action and how it causes no jacking effect. The whole point of a watts link is to balance the forces. When one side is pulled the other is pushed an equal amount. The propeller balances the movement. Basically it's a balance bar.
And fwiw, the issue isn't just with "unlevel" PHB's, because at any point other than when a car is sitting static the PHB becomes crooked due to body roll and suspension movement. It can start level, but dynamically doesn't stay that way which is why the roll center is always moving up and down.
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Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
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13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
07-25-2008, 03:11 PM
#72
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I agree with your second statement.
As for the first statement, humor me.. Look at it from the standpoint of
a flat road, and the car is basically flat. You go around a right turn, and one of the watts links is in compression, and one in tension. Because the links have pivot points at their ends, the forces are applied from pivot point to pivot point only (cant apply torque thru a pivot). The vertical component of the force is the result of the angles of the links. Now you go around a left turn. The forces in the links reverse, going to tension and compression now. If, and only if the links are at the same angle, are the vertical components of the forces equal (unless you alter the offset distances of the links to the rotation point of the center bellcrank). When they are not equal, the rapid transition from left to right turns will cause the vertical loading to change.
I would think that the most transitionally stable design might be to have the vertical loading equal for right and left turns.
This all turns to crap when the body leans.
Is there a reason for the offset of the mounting points?
As for the first statement, humor me.. Look at it from the standpoint of
a flat road, and the car is basically flat. You go around a right turn, and one of the watts links is in compression, and one in tension. Because the links have pivot points at their ends, the forces are applied from pivot point to pivot point only (cant apply torque thru a pivot). The vertical component of the force is the result of the angles of the links. Now you go around a left turn. The forces in the links reverse, going to tension and compression now. If, and only if the links are at the same angle, are the vertical components of the forces equal (unless you alter the offset distances of the links to the rotation point of the center bellcrank). When they are not equal, the rapid transition from left to right turns will cause the vertical loading to change.
I would think that the most transitionally stable design might be to have the vertical loading equal for right and left turns.
This all turns to crap when the body leans.
Is there a reason for the offset of the mounting points?
07-25-2008, 03:26 PM
#73
I'm not going to pretend to know all the engineering behind a Watts link. And frankly a lot of what you wrote above just made my head hurt.
Maybe this will help answer some of your questions. Addressed in this link is talk about the arms needing to be level. http://fays2.net/fays2_watts_link_22_.html Here's a quote (there are some example pictures as well showing the propeller/bell crank at different angles and how the arms look).
"A common misbelief is that the bars have to be parallel at ride height in order for the geometry to work. Our instructions guide you in setting up the bars parallel at ride height because we feel it looks best when viewed from the rear. But in reality, as the cars suspension moves up and down over the roads surface the bars spend most of their life at equal but opposite angles. So, you can raise or lower your chassis on the suspension to get the geometry perfect and not worry about the bars being parallel as your cars ride height changes through out the day."
Maybe this will help answer some of your questions. Addressed in this link is talk about the arms needing to be level. http://fays2.net/fays2_watts_link_22_.html Here's a quote (there are some example pictures as well showing the propeller/bell crank at different angles and how the arms look).
"A common misbelief is that the bars have to be parallel at ride height in order for the geometry to work. Our instructions guide you in setting up the bars parallel at ride height because we feel it looks best when viewed from the rear. But in reality, as the cars suspension moves up and down over the roads surface the bars spend most of their life at equal but opposite angles. So, you can raise or lower your chassis on the suspension to get the geometry perfect and not worry about the bars being parallel as your cars ride height changes through out the day."
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Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
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Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
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13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
07-28-2008, 05:44 AM
#76
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www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
08-01-2008, 12:23 PM
#77
Update:
Just spoke to Fay2 regarding an update. Things are progressing and the estimated time to ship is now around 2 weeks. No actually date at this time. Parts are being cuts, jigs are made. When I get a more specific time and we get to around 1 week before I will begin to process the pre-orders. It takes time for the money to get transferred and Fays2 will want paid, so in order to get them out ASAP we will process orders when the build begins.
And here's the better news: Black is a go and will happen!
Just spoke to Fay2 regarding an update. Things are progressing and the estimated time to ship is now around 2 weeks. No actually date at this time. Parts are being cuts, jigs are made. When I get a more specific time and we get to around 1 week before I will begin to process the pre-orders. It takes time for the money to get transferred and Fays2 will want paid, so in order to get them out ASAP we will process orders when the build begins.
And here's the better news: Black is a go and will happen!
__________________
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
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13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
08-12-2008, 10:13 AM
#79
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this whole thing pretty much died.
well sam. i do drag race my car and i know it aint for that. but i also love taking turns. so what torque arm do you suggest would go good with this?
thanks
well sam. i do drag race my car and i know it aint for that. but i also love taking turns. so what torque arm do you suggest would go good with this?
thanks
08-12-2008, 11:47 AM
#80
I prefer full length TA's and a TA relocation bracket over tunnel mount TA's. The floorpan area at the tunnel mount is not meant for any kind of load like you'd see through a TA. If you opt for one, 3 pt SFC's are IMHO a *MUST* to take that load and spread it out.
TA relocation kits:
6-speed:http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetai...D=18&ModelID=7
Auto: http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetai...D=18&ModelID=7
TA to go with it:
Adjustable (recommended): http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetai...D=18&ModelID=7
Non-adjustable: http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetai...D=18&ModelID=7
TA relocation kits:
6-speed:http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetai...D=18&ModelID=7
Auto: http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetai...D=18&ModelID=7
TA to go with it:
Adjustable (recommended): http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetai...D=18&ModelID=7
Non-adjustable: http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetai...D=18&ModelID=7
__________________
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion