Is This WS6 Formula Priced Right?
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Teching In
Joined: Mar 2012
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From: Little Orleans, MD
Is This WS6 Formula Priced Right? Hey guys....just registered and am "slightly more than casually" looking for a 1998 or newer LS1 F-Body. I have located a garage-kept 1999 Formula WS6. I talked to the owner's wife this evening and she seemed to have a decent grasp on the car. It's a 6-speed, T-top, leather seats, ram air hooded Formula. It's also white in color. I commented to her that I see plenty of white Camaros but not many 'Birds...especially Formulas in white. This '99 also only has about 57K on the clock.
Now, they are asking $9500 for the car. The wife kept mentioning that the car is "rare," a subjective term if there ever was one! But I kinda had to agree in that white Formula WS6 'Birds are not too common in my area.
So, in the opinion of all you other Firebird fans, assuming the car is clean when I go to look at it, might that $9500 be fair, high or.....??? I realize condition is important but I'm just looking for a general feeling from you guys.
Thanks in advance fellas!
Now, they are asking $9500 for the car. The wife kept mentioning that the car is "rare," a subjective term if there ever was one! But I kinda had to agree in that white Formula WS6 'Birds are not too common in my area.
So, in the opinion of all you other Firebird fans, assuming the car is clean when I go to look at it, might that $9500 be fair, high or.....??? I realize condition is important but I'm just looking for a general feeling from you guys.
Thanks in advance fellas!
Perfectly fair asking price IMO.
Esspecially if It's low mileage, assumingly 1 or 2 owner? (older people it sounds like), plus it is about the rarest trim 4th gen there is. Id say go for it if you're in the market. Just varify it's a real ws6.
Esspecially if It's low mileage, assumingly 1 or 2 owner? (older people it sounds like), plus it is about the rarest trim 4th gen there is. Id say go for it if you're in the market. Just varify it's a real ws6.
If I had $9500 and was looking for another F-Body I would be all over it. I live in Memphis, a pretty big city, and I never see any Formulas....much less with that kind of mileage on it. I bought a 2000 SS Camaro with 41k and I paid 12,500 2 years ago for it and it was in mint condition and completely untouched. And I talked him down almost 2 grand on the price.
TECH Junkie
Joined: Aug 2006
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From: Western North Carolina
Good advice posted thus far. If everyone's suggestions pan out, it sounds like a 
if the title is clear and the Carfax checks out.
This may get moved to the "What's It Worth' section though.
if the title is clear and the Carfax checks out.This may get moved to the "What's It Worth' section though.
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 11
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From: Little Orleans, MD
Thanks for the info guys. I got an insurance quote and it's not too hateful for a 45 year old I guess! I get to see the car I'll definitely ask to see the title. And if I can record the VIN, I can have a friend at our local Chevy dealer check to see what I suspect would be a generic type of "build sheet" (for a lack of a better term) in his GM system. I could also probably get him to do a CARFAX check too (we're good friends thankfully).
In terms of pricing, NADA and Kelley Blue Book allowed me to add a ram air option. Edmunds however would not allow it to get that specific. And not surprisingly, Edmunds had the car in clean condition maxing out around $4K (!!!!) private party. The other two sources ranged from $8300-$9600.
Once again guys thank you!
In terms of pricing, NADA and Kelley Blue Book allowed me to add a ram air option. Edmunds however would not allow it to get that specific. And not surprisingly, Edmunds had the car in clean condition maxing out around $4K (!!!!) private party. The other two sources ranged from $8300-$9600.
Once again guys thank you!
TECH Junkie
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,914
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From: Western North Carolina
If Edmunds actually states $4,000 then they are worthless as a price guide. I never look at them anyway. KBB and NADA are usually closest but each car is unique with it's own history and needs to be priced individually. Price guides are useful tools but so much more needs to be put into the equation. These price guides don't differentiate if a 50,000 miles car was owned by 6 owners (with a 16 year old as the last one learning to use a stick), or a one owner well maintained garage kept car by a 60 year old. We all know which one we want. They only are interested if 'fair' or 'good' etc... That's no way to price a car. That's why we almost all agreed that this $9,500 car is priced right if all conditions are satisfied. Good luck!
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Definitely throw those guide prices out. Take a look at this thread to get some understanding: https://ls1tech.com/forums/pontiac-f...-question.html
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Teching In
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 11
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From: Little Orleans, MD
Hope to see the car today. Likely won't get a chance to drive it but that's okay. Spoke to the husband last night and he seemed surprised I called back at all (albeit five days later). I recall the wife saying most of the interest in the car has been teenager to 20couple year olds looking for a $4000 car.
So I know to look at the headlight up/down function, power windows function and maybe door panel cracks, etc. Anything else??? I'd like to get the car on a lift but that'll be in due time.
So I know to look at the headlight up/down function, power windows function and maybe door panel cracks, etc. Anything else??? I'd like to get the car on a lift but that'll be in due time.
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Mar 2012
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From: Little Orleans, MD
Saw the car and it's pretty clean. The body is straight (no door dings) with only a few stone chips on the headlight covers. I didn't see any rust either. The interior was very clean too. There was no one home but the owners left it unlocked for me.
So I got the VIN and proceeded to my local GM dealer. The VIN revealed that the car is a Michigan car new until about 23K then went to VA/WV area from 23K to the current 57K. It's had fog lights replaced, rear main seal replaced, driver's door window regulator and a front wheel bearing/hub assembly replaced. The VIN also revealed that it is in fact a factory WS6 Formula. I am still working on a CARFAX check.
Now I need to drive it and try to get in on a lift. Oh yea....I got to get the wife on board. She wanted a rag top but I don't want one of those. This leather trimmed T-Top is really nice though. Not sure if she'll go for it or not....
So I got the VIN and proceeded to my local GM dealer. The VIN revealed that the car is a Michigan car new until about 23K then went to VA/WV area from 23K to the current 57K. It's had fog lights replaced, rear main seal replaced, driver's door window regulator and a front wheel bearing/hub assembly replaced. The VIN also revealed that it is in fact a factory WS6 Formula. I am still working on a CARFAX check.
Now I need to drive it and try to get in on a lift. Oh yea....I got to get the wife on board. She wanted a rag top but I don't want one of those. This leather trimmed T-Top is really nice though. Not sure if she'll go for it or not....
The only concern I have are the 23k miles that were accumulated in Michigan. Salt spray is nasty stuff. It will get in everywhere and start eating the steel. Make sure you get under it and give it a real good inspection. If the carfax comes back clean with no crackups, buy it.
WS6 Formula is mega-cool. And will become even more so as time goes on.
Very cool car man. I have a formula in a rare color myself but its not a WS6. Thats definately a cool car and actually was listed at a good price, not way out there like some of these guys wanting $25k for a T/A WS6 just because its low miles. Congrats!
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Mar 2012
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From: Little Orleans, MD
Well guys, I got to drive the car today. In the lower gears as the RPMs increased there was some surging. The owners only put about 2K miles on it (if that) and after speaking with the wife, it was never pushed too hard. Also, the wife had no way to determine how long the current tank of fuel had been in the car. And she also wasn't sure if hi-test had been put in it at the last fill-up. So the car may still need "blowing out"....I dunno. The A/C never got cold...at all. In fact I think the refrigerant level was so low I don't think the compressor even kicked on. The undercarriage was relatively rust-free though. I did however notice the headlights went up and down at very slightly different times, like something needed adjusting. While looking at the hood...sadly...I noticed two cracks that total was about 1.25 to 1.5 inches long if put end to end (not super noticeable though). I wouldn't think a 13 year cold would just arbitrarily crack. So, with no results back yet on the CARFAX check, I'm wondering if the car was wrecked at one time. There also was a very slight amount of oil on the bottom of the engine/tranny area (rear main issue again?).
So now I wait on the CARFAX to see if any wrecks were reported.............uggg....
None of these issues are end of the world type issues. The car only has 57K on it now. So I wonder, if I still pursue this, what type of offer to make versus the $9500 they were asking.
So now I wait on the CARFAX to see if any wrecks were reported.............uggg....
None of these issues are end of the world type issues. The car only has 57K on it now. So I wonder, if I still pursue this, what type of offer to make versus the $9500 they were asking.
Teching In
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Well guys, I got to drive the car today. In the lower gears as the RPMs increased there was some surging. The owners only put about 2K miles on it (if that) and after speaking with the wife, it was never pushed too hard. Also, the wife had no way to determine how long the current tank of fuel had been in the car. And she also wasn't sure if hi-test had been put in it at the last fill-up. So the car may still need "blowing out"....I dunno. The A/C never got cold...at all. In fact I think the refrigerant level was so low I don't think the compressor even kicked on. The undercarriage was relatively rust-free though. I did however notice the headlights went up and down at very slightly different times, like something needed adjusting. While looking at the hood...sadly...I noticed two cracks that total was about 1.25 to 1.5 inches long if put end to end (not super noticeable though). I wouldn't think a 13 year cold would just arbitrarily crack. So, with no results back yet on the CARFAX check, I'm wondering if the car was wrecked at one time. There also was a very slight amount of oil on the bottom of the engine/tranny area (rear main issue again?).
So now I wait on the CARFAX to see if any wrecks were reported.............uggg....
None of these issues are end of the world type issues. The car only has 57K on it now. So I wonder, if I still pursue this, what type of offer to make versus the $9500 they were asking.
So now I wait on the CARFAX to see if any wrecks were reported.............uggg....
None of these issues are end of the world type issues. The car only has 57K on it now. So I wonder, if I still pursue this, what type of offer to make versus the $9500 they were asking.
TECH Junkie
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,914
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From: Western North Carolina
Somethng is amiss here. Smart to look at Carfax but it is not fool proof, just a helpful tool in your search. The a/c is a concern. There is a leak somewhere and that can get costly. Any number of scenarios could exist there. The gas situation or surging could just be the ethanol separating from the gas which is now becoming a very common issue with cars in storage for long periods of time. Draining the tank may be necessary. Do NOT try to blow it out. It can really mess with the system if it has separated. The headlight issues are common and involve the gears most of the time. Do it yourself for an inexpensive cost or a dealership charge of $300+. Yes, that is what they charge. Cracks in the hood are baffling and raise even more questions. If the owner can't explain, time to walk. As it is, you have some potential costly repairs ahead for you, namely the a/c which could be a few hundred for a bad hose to $1,500 or even $2,000 for major components like the condenser, dryer, etc... You also have to account for the unknown issues which exist with every 'used' car, those which pop up after purchase. I personally would walk away from this car but if you feel the owner will negotiate downwards to about $8,000, then spend $50-$100 and take it to the local GM dealer first and have them do a serious check of the car, especially the a/c. Nothing is worse than new ownership of a 'money pit'. It can really sour the overall experience.
By the way, nice job on checking the car out so far. You are a smart 'looker' and being very thorough.
By the way, nice job on checking the car out so far. You are a smart 'looker' and being very thorough.
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Mar 2012
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From: Little Orleans, MD
Thanks NC01 for the input. I know CARFAX is not full-proof. In fact I told the wife that not everything that happens to a car ends up in a CF report. The cracks are in a weird place too, parallel to the ram air bumps. It's almost like the cracks are in the clear coat and maybe down into the paint. I seriously think that they may have not noticed them when they bought the car two years ago. And regarding the A/C...it's a 13 year old car and I told her that, in theory, the A/C system is a closed system and if it never gets cold then there is a leak somewhere.
These folks seem very forthcoming and they know about the rareness of WS6 Formulas in 1999. But the car does have issues. I would be willing to have our local GM dealer go over the car but a potential $1500 to $2000 for an A/C issue (if it came to that) and the uncertainty of how/why those tiny cracks got on the hood makes my guts twist. if I had more money than I knew what to do with, I'd consider it. But I don't so I'll likely take a pass.
Now if the hubby called me in a week or two and said he'd take $6500 for it as is.........well.........hmmm...........
These folks seem very forthcoming and they know about the rareness of WS6 Formulas in 1999. But the car does have issues. I would be willing to have our local GM dealer go over the car but a potential $1500 to $2000 for an A/C issue (if it came to that) and the uncertainty of how/why those tiny cracks got on the hood makes my guts twist. if I had more money than I knew what to do with, I'd consider it. But I don't so I'll likely take a pass.
Now if the hubby called me in a week or two and said he'd take $6500 for it as is.........well.........hmmm...........
You can get complete working a/c systems on here for a couple hundred dollars.. put it on urself and add the freon easy day.
I'd have them address the issues first as part of the deal or something. Full maintenance. Basically new plugs/wires, o2 sensors, fuel filter, drain fuel tank, oil, clean maf/air filter. Once the tank is drained I'd purge the lines for fuel as well. After that add some injector cleaner or sea foam and should be good to go.
I'd have them address the issues first as part of the deal or something. Full maintenance. Basically new plugs/wires, o2 sensors, fuel filter, drain fuel tank, oil, clean maf/air filter. Once the tank is drained I'd purge the lines for fuel as well. After that add some injector cleaner or sea foam and should be good to go.
A few thoughts.
Surging: I suspect as others that it's lack of driving it.
Oil leak: Could be something as minor as oil splashback from dropping a filter during an oil change.
Headlights: It's pretty common for the doors to open at slightly different times.
A/C: Could be a small leak. Seals can dry out and leak just from sitting. Or the whole system could be damaged.
Cranks in the hood: Not sure on this one, I might be worried. I wonder if it's possible to cause cracks just by doing something dumb like sitting on the hood. Body pro might be able to give you advice on this if you take good pics. Just make sure this thing hasn't been bent up.
A thirteen year old car is going to have some issues, I still think price reasonable. Personally, I could overlook some of this for a WS6 Formula 6 speed. It's not like your buying a used Kia minvan here.
Surging: I suspect as others that it's lack of driving it.
Oil leak: Could be something as minor as oil splashback from dropping a filter during an oil change.
Headlights: It's pretty common for the doors to open at slightly different times.
A/C: Could be a small leak. Seals can dry out and leak just from sitting. Or the whole system could be damaged.
Cranks in the hood: Not sure on this one, I might be worried. I wonder if it's possible to cause cracks just by doing something dumb like sitting on the hood. Body pro might be able to give you advice on this if you take good pics. Just make sure this thing hasn't been bent up.
A thirteen year old car is going to have some issues, I still think price reasonable. Personally, I could overlook some of this for a WS6 Formula 6 speed. It's not like your buying a used Kia minvan here.
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Mar 2012
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From: Little Orleans, MD
Okay fellas, CARFAX showed no REPORTED accidents or salvage title issues. And the couple that owns the car now are the fourth owners (one in Michigan then two in Virginia). The wife said her hubby saw the car in someone's yard two years ago for sale and they bought it for an "investment." Now their priorities have changed and are looking to use the money elsewhere. I hope to take a few pics of the cracks on the hood and show them to our local Corvette restoration guy to get his opinion. And the local LS1 junkie that works in parts at our local Chevy store told me not to be too afraid of the A/C issue (easy for him to say...lol).
And nearly everyone I spoke to re: the intermittent acceleration agreed that old gas and the car being driven about 2500 miles in two years are significant factors. Kinda sounds like the car needs to be driven! I know when I had my Kawasaki ZX7-R 14 years ago, if I putted around on it too long, it would kinda get "loaded up" and not run the way it should. A few healthy twists of the right wrist and up through the gears and all was fine. Kinda like "these hi-strung, hi-performance engines" need to be run and run hard once in a while.
Onward we march...
And nearly everyone I spoke to re: the intermittent acceleration agreed that old gas and the car being driven about 2500 miles in two years are significant factors. Kinda sounds like the car needs to be driven! I know when I had my Kawasaki ZX7-R 14 years ago, if I putted around on it too long, it would kinda get "loaded up" and not run the way it should. A few healthy twists of the right wrist and up through the gears and all was fine. Kinda like "these hi-strung, hi-performance engines" need to be run and run hard once in a while.
Onward we march...