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02 SS M6 Red 50k miles with H/C/I w/ PICS

 
Old 03-15-2019, 09:08 AM
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Default 02 SS M6 Red 50k miles with H/C/I w/ PICS

Hey guys,

I am looking at buying a beautiful red 2002 Camaro SS M6 that looks pristine. I looked up the options on it and it came with the following SLP options: chrome 10 spokes, center mount exhaust, floor mats, grille, portfolio(what is this) and Y2Y (SLP 2nd sticker content, Not sure what that is). Beautiful car with ebony leather.

It has had come performance work done too (claimed 440 horsepower). The previous previous owner had the work done at 47k miles. it has 50,200 now. The current owner told me it had a stage 2 cam. Not sure what ​​​​​​ that is. It also has a unique cold air intake and stainless long tube headers. He was thinking American Racing Headers or something like that. The guy that did the work is supposed to be really well known in corvette circles around here (Lewis Roberts of Roberts Motor Works) around here and has long wait periods and appointments set up for him to work on peoples cars. I would call him but can't get in touch, I guess he's busy. Either way, ill post pics of the car and CAI, and such, The current owner is trying to find the dyno sheet but isn't sure where it is.

So, what do you guys think the car is worth?

My most important question is can I find out if aftermarket heads were used? Could I find out what kind by just looking at them from a general inspection?

Thank you guys for all the information and support. I always ask questions of you all and wish I could give back in some way. Now that I think of it, Im going to get a premium membership to show my appreciation for all you guys have helped me, if it isn't too much.

Without further ado, here are the pictures of the car.

UPDATE: Just found out this is a salvage/rebuilt title car. More information in my second post below.










Last edited by areax; 03-15-2019 at 10:25 AM. Reason: New information
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Old 03-15-2019, 10:23 AM
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Update guys. I just did a Carfax and found out it is a salvage/rebuilt title. So I imagine the engine work was done while the motor was out of the vehicle for whatever repair was done. The owner is claiming the driver quarter was hit and thats why but the Carfax says it was reported as a total loss. I don't see that as a total loss.
If I proceed, ill have to have it inspected by a vehicle inspector specializing in salvage/total loss vehicles. But what do you guys think the car is worth, now knowing its a rebuilt title?
Any other tips or things I should consider or look out for? I clearly asked the owner if the vehicle had a clear title and he agreed that it did right before I told him I had a Carfax ran and it showed it as salvaged. My point is that I think I should verify everything, if I proceed with this transaction.

Also, any info you guys could provide would be very helpful. We're in the process of making this deal and I'm trying to figure out if I should push forward and get a good deal on a salvaged car or pass on the deal.

Last edited by areax; 03-15-2019 at 10:30 AM. Reason: New Info.
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Old 03-15-2019, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by areax View Post
Hey guys,

I am looking at buying a beautiful red 2002 Camaro SS M6 that looks pristine. I looked up the options on it and it came with the following SLP options: chrome 10 spokes, center mount exhaust, floor mats, grille, portfolio(what is this) and Y2Y (SLP 2nd sticker content, Not sure what that is). Beautiful car with ebony leather.

It has had come performance work done too (claimed 440 horsepower). The previous previous owner had the work done at 47k miles. it has 50,200 now. The current owner told me it had a stage 2 cam. Not sure what ​​​​​​ that is. It also has a unique cold air intake and stainless long tube headers. He was thinking American Racing Headers or something like that. The guy that did the work is supposed to be really well known in corvette circles around here (Lewis Roberts of Roberts Motor Works) around here and has long wait periods and appointments set up for him to work on peoples cars. I would call him but can't get in touch, I guess he's busy. Either way, ill post pics of the car and CAI, and such, The current owner is trying to find the dyno sheet but isn't sure where it is.

So, what do you guys think the car is worth?

My most important question is can I find out if aftermarket heads were used? Could I find out what kind by just looking at them from a general inspection?

Thank you guys for all the information and support. I always ask questions of you all and wish I could give back in some way. Now that I think of it, Im going to get a premium membership to show my appreciation for all you guys have helped me, if it isn't too much.

Without further ado, here are the pictures of the car.

UPDATE: Just found out this is a salvage/rebuilt title car. More information in my second post below.
I'm of the opinion the value is based on current market value from doing diligent nation wide search of similar rides. I swapped a 2017 HD last fall for a 02 SS vert with 13,500k miles to me it was a fair trade as the bike was not getting used (lost interest). The title would not scare me away as the long as the work was done correctly according to someone you trust completing a complete inspection, I feel its does however give you the upper hand in bartering on a sale price, good luck. If you do purchase and would like some assist in decoding the SLP and Vin code labels feel free to touch base with me as I have down loaded all the codes for both labels.
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Old 03-15-2019, 12:09 PM
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Want some advice? WALK AWAY. That salvage title is a deal breaker and will haunt that car for the rest of its life. There are way too many of these cars available with clean titles such that it makes ZERO sense to even consider this one.
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Old 03-15-2019, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by areax View Post
....and Y2Y (SLP 2nd sticker content, Not sure what that is).
Y2Y was simply the RPO used to indicate that the vehicle had additional SLP options above and beyond the base SS (WU8) package.... in the early years. However, by 2002 all SSs came with this RPO; I remember reading that it had something to do with making it easier for a purchaser to add optional SLP content later in the build process if they wanted to, after placing the initial order. In the earlier years, you would only see this RPO on an SS if it had extra content.

In this case, all those SLP options you mentioned above (chrome wheels, CME, floormats, grille, etc.) would be considered "Y2Y (second sticker, i.e. not GM) content".

Originally Posted by areax View Post
Any other tips or things I should consider or look out for? I clearly asked the owner if the vehicle had a clear title and he agreed that it did right before I told him I had a Carfax ran and it showed it as salvaged. My point is that I think I should verify everything, if I proceed with this transaction.

Also, any info you guys could provide would be very helpful. We're in the process of making this deal and I'm trying to figure out if I should push forward and get a good deal on a salvaged car or pass on the deal.
When buying a used car, it's always somewhat a leap of faith in terms of information you get from the seller. Any time that a seller actively tries to hide something which is obviously a concern, I would personally lose all faith in the seller and assume the worst about everything that's questionable. In this case, the salvage title definitely reduces value significantly, but the bigger issue is the fact that the seller lied about this. He owns the car, so he certainly knows about the title issue and should have been honest when you asked him. I would consider every piece of information he's provided to be highly suspect at this point; this is not a person I would trust at all. If it were me, I'd walk away from this one based on principle (blatantly lying seller) if nothing else.

Having said all that, it might still be a perfectly decent car for the right price. The problem is, it's a modified car with a rebuilt title - so you'd have to be certain that all repairs AND modifications were done to an appropriate standard. Sometimes modified cars, even ones with clean titles, are a mess because the install work or tuning was done poorly, and/or with low quality parts, but in this case you also have to worry about the body/paint/structural repairs - and you're dealing with a known-to-be-dishonest seller. So it's a lot to think about, and you'd have to be very comfortable with your knowledge of these cars and your ability to inspect one for issues based on the above concerns.
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Old 03-15-2019, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by areax View Post
Update guys. I just did a Carfax and found out it is a salvage/rebuilt title. So I imagine the engine work was done while the motor was out of the vehicle for whatever repair was done. The owner is claiming the driver quarter was hit and thats why but the Carfax says it was reported as a total loss. I don't see that as a total loss.
If I proceed, ill have to have it inspected by a vehicle inspector specializing in salvage/total loss vehicles. But what do you guys think the car is worth, now knowing its a rebuilt title?
Any other tips or things I should consider or look out for? I clearly asked the owner if the vehicle had a clear title and he agreed that it did right before I told him I had a Carfax ran and it showed it as salvaged. My point is that I think I should verify everything, if I proceed with this transaction.

Also, any info you guys could provide would be very helpful. We're in the process of making this deal and I'm trying to figure out if I should push forward and get a good deal on a salvaged car or pass on the deal.
Can you post a copy of the Carfax with the VIN & personal info obscured?

Yes, regard every word from that seller as untrue until it is proved otherwise.

Examples
A) "The current owner told me it had a stage 2 cam"
Maybe the car has an aftermarket cam. Maybe that's true or not. I'd have to see receipts and other details.

B) It has had come performance work done too (claimed 440 horsepower). Unless there is a Dynograph, receipts for parts, no reason to believe that. I've seen a lot of claimed 450 hp engines that didn't make 300whp on a dyno or run well at the track.

C)The previous previous owner had the work done at 47k miles. it has 50,200 now. Ask for contact details to call and talk to this previous previous owner. You might verify the story or you might learn some interesting details. That sounds like 2 owners in 3,000 miles and the car is for sale again. That's sort of a red flag to me with the other details. I wouldn't be surprised if the car can't pass inspection or had an issue or two.

Regarding salvage title and engine being out of the car. Not necessarily the case. Salvage or totaled often imply the damage to the car was just more than the value of the car. Cost more to fix than the car is worth.

I'd find another car due to the seller personally. You have money. The seller wants it. The seller appears deceitful. The seller will probably tell you anything to sell the car.



Last edited by 99 Black Bird T/A; 03-15-2019 at 10:27 PM.
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Old 03-15-2019, 09:58 PM
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While the car looks great everything you say seems super sketchy. What is the asking price???
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Old 03-16-2019, 11:45 PM
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I really appreciate the help guys. I will provide more information. He initially asked $15k for it, as of august 2018 (saw the post on his Facebook page) but now has lowered the price to $12,500 on the Facebook Marketplace. The price was 12,500 when we first made contact.

(NOTE: If you guys have any trouble with the links, let me know and I will try to fix them, Thanks.)

Here is a link to the car that is for sale on Facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...4280508738099/

GImmieLSx, I agree. I was looking for a pristine car to put up and keep for the rest of my life. Perhaps as a family heirloom or for one of my future children to have, I just turned 31 on the 15th. I have found a 30k mile 02 SS 6 speed black for sale for 14.5 that I am seriously considering now. I just dont know what it would cost to make some good horsepower with it. (perhaps 400-450 HP or a little more).

RPM WS6: Yes, the seller has blatantly lied to me on multiple occasions. He still maintains that he spend 12,500 for the car plus 5k for the engine mods. His dishonesty has seriously made me doubt that I will continue with the purchase of this car. After telling him I found out the car was salvaged, he told me he spent $10,000 on the car instead of $12,500. He also mentions spending $5,000 on motor work.
The carfax states two owners but seller mentioned an individual that runs a salvage auto rebuilding shop doing the performance work to the car, Lewis Roberts of Roberts Motor Works in London, KY. The seller said this man installed the cam, CAI, and had the car tuned in Stanford.The seller said Ed Turner was the first owner of the car and he was the one who had damaged done to the driver side quarter panel, which is why the title is salvaged.The telephone number that was given to me, by the seller, for Roberts Motor Works is (615)400-5957, which is a nashville TN phone number. I actually went to this shop but everyone was gone at 5pm. THe phone number that I just mentioned was on the front window, though. Even after finding out about the salvage title and telling the seller, he maintains that he gave 12,500 for the car. He says that the first owner had the car fixed in 2017 and then sold it to him. He then had Roberts Motor Works do the cam, CAI ,and tune to achieve 440 HP but he cannot find the dyno sheet or the receipt for the work done.He also says it has long tube headers but isnt sure of the brand. He guesses that it is American Racing with a full exhaust done. He says he spent 4,000 to 5,000 in for the work done by Roberts Motor Works.

When the seller could tell me no more information about the work on the motor except for that it had a CAI, stage 2 cam, and a tune done in Stanford. I decided to call the shop where the work was done but could not get an answer. I called multiple times and believe I was actually "hung up" on, as the phone only rang a couple of times then went to voicemail. I left 2 voicemails and contacted the person that done the motor work via Facebook, as well, but did not get a response.

The owner also told me that he purchased the car from David Hammons in Lincoln county and gave me his phone number. He said the first owner owned the car for 10 years. When I told him that I ran a car fax and told him I found out about the salvage title, he said "I thought I told you about that back quarter panel and that it had been fixed before". This is completely false. The first owner was Ed Turner and before the seller acquired the car, it was fixed and modified by David Hammonds, which is known for doing shady work on vehicles. I have some friends that told me about David Hammonds and his dealings with him. A friend had a motor worked on by David Hammonds and ended up having to take it somewhere else to fix the mistakes made by David Hammonds. (I do not know this for a fact but I have a reliable friend whom told me about this encounter with David Hammonds and his work).

99 Black Bird: Yes, I will post the car fax and a video that he sent to me of the car running. He also sent a picture of the RPO codes.

Here is a link to the CarFax.
https://www.carfax.com/showroom/repo...FP22G922148122


I will also post a photo of the RPO codes and the video of it running. It has a bit of a cam lope so it does have some type of cam replacement.


This is what was said by the seller, via text message, after I found out about the salvage title:

I understand if you don't want the car. I did not lie to you. The car was fixed when I bought it from David Hammons. I don't know when he fixed it. He told me he had the car for about ten years. I'm attaching pics of the paperwork when I bought the car as well as pics of the registration papers that was in the car when I bought it.

By the way I'm not trying to make any money on the car I've got 15,000 in the car I bought it for 10 and five in the motor and I did all the work to moto
He then sent me these two pictures of the registration for the car.


After receiving this message and the pictures below, I then asked if he could provide a picture of the title for the car, with the VIN number visible but have not heard back from him yet.






Here are the photos of the RPO code sticker




I figured out a way to get the video to upload (I think) but it had to be cut really short and put into URL format. When you click the link and it opens up, just hit the blue download button and it should play for you.

https://www.zamzar.com/getFiles.php?uid=77114757b843aabc40fe79fc84d49477-3ec4efeb32d04f11&targetID=12Sr3NF0Ch82fNRomRbEjA_I _I

Last edited by areax; 03-17-2019 at 02:26 AM. Reason: Grammar, Added Link
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Old 03-17-2019, 08:06 AM
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I'll keep this simple as I agree with some others. WALK AWAY>> This price for a bad title car is outrageous on top of it.
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Old 03-17-2019, 01:18 PM
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NC01TA - You are exactlyy right. He will not budge off 12,500. He said he may come down to the 11 rage so I guess that means 11-11,500 but its still a rebuilt title car. I found a clear title with 30k miles for 14.500 I just hate to see someone else get burned.

But I have an update. Heres the vehicles title. I didn't want to share any sensitive info so I tried to blank it all out. Let me know if I didn't get it all, please.

Also, did all the links and attachments above work okay?


Last edited by areax; 03-17-2019 at 01:20 PM. Reason: grammar, editing text
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Old 03-17-2019, 01:22 PM
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Id love to share this thread anytime he posts the car for sale and misrepresents the state of the title but I cannot afford to get in a dog fight with this guy, as I must protect my reputation for future work prospects.

Im still kind of interested in the car, with the work that has been done to it but I suppose I could make a 450-475hp car out of the 02 SS M6 I already have, I just don't know the cost. I will post in another section about seeing what it will cost to get there.

Also, this may not be the right spot but is there anyway to purchase premium membership anymore? I want to contribute back to the site for what all you guys have done for me.

Also, to get to 440 HP, if it really has that much HP, would a cam only car, with a CAI be able to do it? That cam sounded pretty mild which leads me to believe it should have some type of heads or headwork done. Maybe 243s?

Last edited by areax; 03-17-2019 at 01:27 PM. Reason: added text
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Old 03-17-2019, 08:26 PM
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^^Wouldn't mess with this one, salvage, unknown cam/tune/mods, I would walk away (looks like the tires are way over inflated or the incorrect size too, they look really tall). I have seen 400+rwhp cam only LS1's in the past but who knows with this car. Seller does not seem honest and unless he can provide proof I wouldn't believe him.
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Old 03-18-2019, 02:22 AM
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Originally Posted by TransAmWS.6 View Post
^^Wouldn't mess with this one, salvage, unknown cam/tune/mods, I would walk away (looks like the tires are way over inflated or the incorrect size too, they look really tall). I have seen 400+rwhp cam only LS1's in the past but who knows with this car. Seller does not seem honest and unless he can provide proof I wouldn't believe him.
That makes sense. He told me that the original owner put two new tires on the car and when the seller received the car, he put two more matching tires on the car to make a 4 matching set.
I agree. I am walking away from this one. There are other fish in the sea. I see you have an 01 or 02 SOM SS in your signature. I actually have an 02 SOM SS m6, myself. Unfortunately, its age is showing and I will have to put some serious money into it to get it back in shape. I will get there though, funds allowing!
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