hawkls7

I have an expensive engine and have had many issues with my car and the latest isue is that my tuner was tuning my car with its new engine . he has called and said that there is a problem , which is the no 1 intake valve on the head has been brocken off at the base off the cone and has done dammage. if there are any real tecks out there can you please explain. he has said it could be the composition off the valves construction. the valves are stainless steel ferea valves the heads used are et and it has tripple valve springs with roller rokers. this engine has been run before at 1000rwhp , and has been stripped and rebuilt and machined and all componets inspected and re assembled . What could be the possible causes to this failure please!

Old Geezer

iTrader: (3)

"this engine has been run before at 1000rwhp , and has been stripped and rebuilt and machined and all componets inspected and re assembled".
Valves, like rings, brgs, rods, springs, are items w/ limits on thier useful life.
Just because the items were "inspected" does not mean they are reuseable.
@1000Hp, depending on the length of service, the above items could have been at the end of thier useful lifespan.
Were all the items magnafluxed, zygloed, etc, or were they "visually inspected"??? BIG difference..
The valve failure could be due to other component failure[s], such as weakened spring[s],, Valve tags the piston, head breaks off... engine done.
A THOROUGH inspection of all parts should be done, prior to rebuilding...
IMO, I'd NOT use any of the most "suspect" parts.
A 1000rw is likey well over 1200FW... Lots of highly stressed parts to do that...
I would start over w/ new valves, springs, rods, brgs, lifters, and a complete inspection of the basic parts. [Block, heads, cam, etc]

FWIW, I just inspected a failed stage 2 Buick.. Hi dollar Carillo rods.. "fresh engine", 2nd pass. 2 rods broken. Cause? Rods were "assumed" good. Obviously were not.
One last comment:
Were the components designed for that kind of power output? LOTS of "quality levels" to choose from on many components...Valves included.
Sorry for the problem[s].. Hope you get it back together, soon..

XtraCajunSS

iTrader: (2)

Old Geezer said it all... Been there. Done that.

It is always better to be safe than sorry. At this point, if you don't trust the opinions of those working on your engine, I would find a third party to do a failure analysis of the engine before its taken too far apart. It is sometimes fairly easy to figure out what happened... then again, sometimes you never find out.

Good luck, it sounds like you have a serious beast there regardless.

Shane

edcmat-l1

iTrader: (10)

We had an ETP head break an intake valve head off a couple years ago. Destroyed the whole motor except the other head. Wonder if it's just the two piece, piece of crap valves.
We're building another car that has ETPs on it. Think I'll see about replacing ALL the valves in it.

1997bird

iTrader: (2)

Ed, the Ferrea valves used on that build were a one piece valve. The fact was the connecting rod broke at a classic failure point when their indurance have been surpassed. I have had the same brand and material valves not break even when the bottom end let loose and the piston's tag the head @ 7000 rpm (23 degree SBC). In fact I still have them on my desk at work sitting next to each other in a V formation as a joke for the "new Harley V-rod valves". I believe that it has to do with the 11 valve angle and when the piston hit the cylinder head the valve had more stress put against it than it could withhold. Remember that the bottom half of the valve guide was busted out of the head itself. I still have the peices that are left and have studied them throughly and consulted with an ASE certified engine failure analist. I never did agree with your prognoises on this matter. Anyway the car is up and running again with several of the old problem's that the engine had before fixed, so I guess that this was a mute point. I just didn't want people on this board thinking that the Ferrea valves "are crap"!

hawkls7

This engine has made its hp figure on the dyno, only .It has always been at tuning stages , never been complete . i have never recieved my car from my builder . there has always been a problem near completion its almost been 2 years since back then when the warhawk block was released. i have spent lots off $$$ on this build and now have hit a brick wall , im near depression stages. what should i do? . Is this engine capable of making hi hp but only on dyno will my car ever come home or am i only paying for someones r and d ?

1997bird

iTrader: (2)

Call the tech's at Ferrea and talk to them and see what they say. They will probably want to see some picture's, that way they can see part of the problem. These valves should have been able to hold your HP needs depending on what series of valve's that were used in the actual build.

edcmat-l1

iTrader: (10)

Interesting assessment. Looked like it broke the head right off to me.
I have a motor in right now, ETP heads, broke a rod, bent an intake valve. Didn't knock the head off it though. The break in Don's motor was right where a 2 piece valve would have been put together.
What pieces do you still have? Can you take pictures for me? I'd like to re visit it.

Edit: Going over this in my head, basically reviewing what it all looked liked, the biggest reason I believe it broke the valve FIRST is because of the extent of the damage. Pretty much every broken rod I've seen, the piston was pretty much left intact. Dons motor, on the other hand, pulverized the piston, which to me is a sign the valve broke the head off, and the piston, still connected to the crank, beat the livin **** out of itself as the valve head bounced around.
The motor we have in right now that broke a rod, the piston is just fine, with the exception of a ding from the valve. All the damage from the broken rod is under the piston. It broke the block, oil pan, etc. but the piston remained intact.
Had 2 lightnings blow up, broken rods and blocks. Pistons tops were ok.
Also, most of the time a rod will break on the down stroke, basically pulling apart. When that happens, even if it hits the piston after it's detached, it cannot force it high enough to break the valve head off.
No, reviewing it mentally, and what that piston looked like, I would still say the valve broke first.

1997bird

iTrader: (2)

I will get all of the pieces rounded up for you to look at again. I've moved the shop since then but I'm pretty sure that I still have everything. As my memory serves there is an impression on the bottom of the head by the head gasket fire ring from where the piston hit it (not just a chunk).

mebuildit

I have had similar problems with valve train issues. If you can show us some pictures of the parts in question we might be able to help.

Usually, I have seen valves just bend and get slammed into the port. If a rod broke then depending on how and where it broke it won't move up and down since it's not connected to the crank. So there are several questions I (we) have to try to help you out.

Hope this helps you out.

STOCK1090

iTrader: (1)

I don't know who is talking about what engine in this thread but Hawk get with your cam guy and check out the closing ramps. You may be dropping the valve to hard.(possibly bouncing it) If the keepers were harder than usual to get out of the retainers this is where you may need to look. Check the stems to see if the keepers marked up the valves. Did you have to lightly file the top of the valve to get it through the guides? If you did this is also a sign of an unhappy valvetrain.

In Stock we have to drop the valves hard. The ones we have broken have happened in either #1 or #2. We change the valves in the SS car once a year and in the Stockers every freshen up. Just cheap insurance. Kind of the same thing Old Greezer recomended.

hawkls7

Thanks guys for all your help but the problem has been resolved . I dont want to mention it , he has taken full responsability , the ferea valves did not cause the problem in my books they are still a quality item .We are going to replace all pistons and re hone all cylinders due to a few gauls , replace all valves and springs on one side of the head. but my question is , that there is a few larger gauls on the head in cylinder 1 and is it possible to weld and clean and still have a quality product. have any off you done this before any negative issues that are concerns . Also i had my pistons coated from ross and after several dyno runs the engine was stripped , still fresh and i noticed the coatings had already started faiding , to me it looked like the coatings dont last very long what do you think on this matter , once again i thank you all for your help.

mebuildit

If you have aluminum heads, then yes you can have them welded up depending on how bad they are damaged. Just make sure you take it to a reputable place that has done this before.

As for the coatings on the pistons, did you ceramic the tops? or are you talking about the skirts? If there is flaking then usually it is because of the way they were prepped. Take them back and have them look at the pistons.

Good luck

hawkls7

Tops were coated as well as the skirts . there was no flaking only that the coatings were thinning out , they looked fine and faded.should i coat my new pistons .

mebuildit

So if I'm understanding you correctly, you have ceramic coated piston tops and moly based coating on the skirts?

If the skirt coating is wearing off that is normal. But if the top ceramic coating is wearing off that is not good. Ceramic coating should stay on, and if it is flaking or wearing thin, then I would take them back and have the coating re-applied.