Latest and Greatest Proper Engine Break in Procedure - LS1TECH - Camaro and Firebird Forum Discussion

Notices
Advanced Engineering Tech For the more hardcore LS1TECH residents
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Latest and Greatest Proper Engine Break in Procedure

Reply

Old 03-11-2018, 04:14 PM
  #1  
TECH Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (26)
 
ddnspider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: FL
Posts: 6,916
Default Latest and Greatest Proper Engine Break in Procedure

Continuing from here:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...colypse-4.html

annnnnnnnnd go!
ddnspider is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2018, 04:35 PM
  #2  
TECH Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Central Cal.
Posts: 5,086
Default

Smart move, ddnspider! Good procedure for break-in!
G Atsma is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2018, 04:43 PM
  #3  
TECH Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (26)
 
ddnspider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: FL
Posts: 6,916
Default

Originally Posted by G Atsma View Post
Smart move, ddnspider! Good procedure for break-in!
Hey I don't claim to know anything about this.... Pantera threw me for a loop with his post so looking for others to confirm or deny.
ddnspider is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2018, 06:57 PM
  #4  
TECH Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Central Cal.
Posts: 5,086
Default

I'm just commending you for making it a separate post. Lance put it up, I know.
G Atsma is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2018, 07:25 PM
  #5  
TECH Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (26)
 
ddnspider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: FL
Posts: 6,916
Default

Originally Posted by G Atsma View Post
I'm just commending you for making it a separate post. Lance put it up, I know.
Wheres he at?! Lol. Give me some links or data or something.
ddnspider is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2018, 07:42 PM
  #6  
TECH Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Central Cal.
Posts: 5,086
Default

I know his business is in Santa Ana, California, and he's a sponsor here. Other than that....
G Atsma is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2018, 09:20 AM
  #7  
KCS
Moderator
iTrader: (19)
 
KCS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Conroe, TX
Posts: 7,851
Default

KCS is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2018, 09:36 AM
  #8  
KCS
Moderator
iTrader: (19)
 
KCS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Conroe, TX
Posts: 7,851
Default

FWIW, I don't really do anything weird when I break in an engine, like what Lance posted. I've never seen anyone break in an engine like that and I don't understand why anyone would. I don't think the rings get very hot at idle (no load) so I can't agree with doing it to keep the rings cool so they don't lose their temper.

If the engine is broken in on an engine dyno, it's usually run with no load until it reaches temp. Then it goes through a cycle where the load and RPM is varied and repeated with increasing load and RPM. I think some of the software for the Superflow engine dynos have this program available which does this automatically. The engine is usually broken in within an hour.

If the engine is broken in in the car, I will try to emulate the engine dyno procedure. I let the engine get hot at idle speed while I check for leaks or other issues. Then I'll drive it around with light load or low throttle input and keep the RPM low as well. I'll start gradually putting more load on it and increasing RPM while keeping an eye on the temp and oil pressure, but I don't do any WOT pulls. That will be done on the dyno.
KCS is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2018, 09:45 AM
  #9  
TECH Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (26)
 
ddnspider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: FL
Posts: 6,916
Default

Originally Posted by KCS View Post
FWIW, I don't really do anything weird when I break in an engine, like what Lance posted. I've never seen anyone break in an engine like that and I don't understand why anyone would. I don't think the rings get very hot at idle (no load) so I can't agree with doing it to keep the rings cool so they don't lose their temper.

If the engine is broken in on an engine dyno, it's usually run with no load until it reaches temp. Then it goes through a cycle where the load and RPM is varied and repeated with increasing load and RPM. I think some of the software for the Superflow engine dynos have this program available which does this automatically. The engine is usually broken in within an hour.

If the engine is broken in in the car, I will try to emulate the engine dyno procedure. I let the engine get hot at idle speed while I check for leaks or other issues. Then I'll drive it around with light load or low throttle input and keep the RPM low as well. I'll start gradually putting more load on it and increasing RPM while keeping an eye on the temp and oil pressure, but I don't do any WOT pulls. That will be done on the dyno.
I read all those links and agree with that is how I traditionally have seen engine break in.....which is drastically different from what Pantera is stating. Hence the reason for this thread and as a sponsor it would be nice if he would share his tangible sources of his method.
ddnspider is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2018, 12:17 PM
  #10  
LS1Tech Sponsor
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Santa Ana, CA. USA
Posts: 2,058
Default Engine Start Method

HI ALL, the quotes, I found FUNNY as they referred to an engine with carburetors, flat tappets, etc. The referenced method is similar as I state though they use different terms. SOME ARE Different from my method and may be true WHEN a CAST IRON ring is fitted. This too is found in Cosworth Tech, the cast ring method. Many engines are fitted with a Ductile Iron, moly filled top rings.
I too agree with the OLD SCHOOL method, to a lower extent.

Then the question about "engine manufactures" NON are above referenced, they are engine assemblers !

NEXT my method is Mis-Quoted by spider, NEVER did I state to Idle the engine at startup.

I STATE to follow the prelube tech, with warm oil if possible AND a warm block if possible they bring the engine to 2000+ RPM for short periods of time, stop the engine allowing ring cooling time, then repeat doubling those periods. I would add that the ability to increase the engine load at each interval is agreed.

I believe THIS quest is proper/valid DUE TO CHANGES in piston design AND ring material away from engines created OVER 100 years AGO !

Lance
pantera_efi is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2018, 01:09 PM
  #11  
KCS
Moderator
iTrader: (19)
 
KCS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Conroe, TX
Posts: 7,851
Default

Originally Posted by Pantera EFI View Post
Then the question about "engine manufactures" NON are above referenced, they are engine assemblers !
Hastings manufactures pistons rings, among other things. Do they not count?

Is there any sources you can post from an "engine manufacturer?" I think that is the point of this thread.

Originally Posted by Pantera EFI View Post
NEXT my method is Mis-Quoted by spider, NEVER did I state to Idle the engine at startup.
You misquote Spider. He didn't say that, I did. When Darth stated he only started the car up for a few seconds, obviously without putting load on the engine, you said that to ""start" for a few seconds is BEST." He again commented that he followed the procedure you stated, specifying idle only, to which you did not correct him. That gives the reader the impression that idle speed and no load is required for your break in procedure.

However, now that this miscommunication has been cleared up, it seems the procedure you recommend does not vary much from the accepted procedures stated in the links I posted.
KCS is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2018, 03:06 PM
  #12  
TECH Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (26)
 
ddnspider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: FL
Posts: 6,916
Default

Originally Posted by KCS View Post
You misquote Spider. He didn't say that, I did. When Darth stated he only started the car up for a few seconds, obviously without putting load on the engine, you said that to ""start" for a few seconds is BEST." He again commented that he followed the procedure you stated, specifying idle only, to which you did not correct him. That gives the reader the impression that idle speed and no load is required for your break in procedure.

However, now that this miscommunication has been cleared up, it seems the procedure you recommend does not vary much from the accepted procedures stated in the links I posted.
Thank you. Lance should state exactly how he does a new engine start/break-in and also correct his post in the other thread as it is very misleading going from:

"Your reported "start" for a few seconds is BEST.

THE OLD STORY, to run a new engine, new rings, for 20 minutes at 2500RPM is the WORST POSSIBLE method.

The method that is used by engine professionals is to start (run) for 5 seconds/stop for 10 seconds/run for 10 seconds/let cool for 20 seconds, etc.

The time periods are thus doubled each run/stop sequence.
This will keep the rings cool keeping their temper.

There have been many pictures posted her showing BAD cylinder walls caused by metal transfer with improper engine run in procedure.

Lance"

To:

"I STATE to follow the prelube tech, with warm oil if possible AND a warm block if possible they bring the engine to 2000+ RPM for short periods of time, stop the engine allowing ring cooling time, then repeat doubling those periods. I would add that the ability to increase the engine load at each interval is agreed. "
ddnspider is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2018, 04:21 PM
  #13  
KCS
Moderator
iTrader: (19)
 
KCS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Conroe, TX
Posts: 7,851
Default

I'd like to get more into the reasons why we do the things we do for the break in procedure, and maybe start a conversation about how to do it better.

The links provide some guidance as to what we are trying to achieve during the break in; which is mainly all about seating the rings. To do this, the engine must see load so that the ring faces are forced into the cylinder wall from the combustion pressure and wear into eachother. So how do we load the engine, and how do we increase that load throughout the process? Throttle input? Gear selection?

The engine must also reach operating temperature so that the engine is not damaged during the high loading cycles. Is a 180 degree thermostat a good idea to use, or should a standard thermostat be used for the process?

Last but not least, the oil must also be able to provide adequate lubrication and cooling, as well as wash away the microscopic particles broken off from the cylinder as the rings wear in. One article suggests decelerating in gear so as to create a high vacuum in the cylinder to encourage oiling the cylinder walls and rings. Would a lower viscosity oil be beneficial to "wash" the cylinders better? Would overfilling the pan 1 or 2 quarts be a good idea?

I'm glad this has come up. I should be firing up a fresh engine soon so it's a good time for me to explore this a little more and maybe revise my break in procedure.
KCS is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2018, 04:35 PM
  #14  
TECH Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (26)
 
ddnspider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: FL
Posts: 6,916
Default

I'm in the same boat...rebuilding an ls6 right now. Got a build thread going in the gen 3 internal section. I figured I'd fire it up and let it idle to operating temp to make sure no leaks etc. Let it cool. Come back later and drive it and start varying throttle and dial in the AFR...then wot pulls. Until Lance posted that up and threw me off lol.

I am a strong believer in running an LS at 190 degrees or less. Kept some rather high hp pump gas street cars alive that way even though people claim they're fine at 210.

I also am a pretty strong believer in the Shell conventional Rotella. I don't get into the synthetic stuff and believe in more frequent oil changes in general. A secondary reason for changing the oil other than the oil breaking over time, is that it also cleans and removes junk from the motor. When you change it more frequently you remove debris and impurities more frequently.

Also becoming a big believer in running more than 5.5 quarts and leaning more towards 6.5 or 7. Seeing alot of high hp street guys logging oil pressure with accurate resolution now and hard qcceleration is dropping the fuel pressure significantly even if only momentarily.
ddnspider is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2018, 05:00 PM
  #15  
KCS
Moderator
iTrader: (19)
 
KCS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Conroe, TX
Posts: 7,851
Default

Originally Posted by ddnspider View Post
Also becoming a big believer in running more than 5.5 quarts and leaning more towards 6.5 or 7. Seeing alot of high hp street guys logging oil pressure with accurate resolution now and hard qcceleration is dropping the fuel pressure significantly even if only momentarily.
It's funny you mention this; a buddy just showed me an Engine Masters episode where they tested different oil levels in a BBC. They overfilled a stock pan and an aftermarket pan, and then drained a quart at a time between tests. As they reduced the oil in the pan, they gained power and stabilized a dip in the oil pressure at higher RPM. I think they gained a solid 20hp after all was said and done. It was a solid roller too, so had it been a hydraulic, they probably would have gained more power.
KCS is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2018, 05:26 PM
  #16  
TECH Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (26)
 
ddnspider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: FL
Posts: 6,916
Default

Originally Posted by KCS View Post
It's funny you mention this; a buddy just showed me an Engine Masters episode where they tested different oil levels in a BBC. They overfilled a stock pan and an aftermarket pan, and then drained a quart at a time between tests. As they reduced the oil in the pan, they gained power and stabilized a dip in the oil pressure at higher RPM. I think they gained a solid 20hp after all was said and done. It was a solid roller too, so had it been a hydraulic, they probably would have gained more power.
Was it overfilled to the point of whipping around the crank? If so it would make sense. How less oil fixes an oil pressure drop doesn't compute lol....but if it was again whipping around the crank I suppose that makes sense. Too many other people have logged data and g force during a pull and showed the drop in pressure that was aided by overfilling the pan. This is more real world as opposed to an engine Dyno. Either way it's cool to see changes like that. I always get a kick out dialing in a tune and feeling how the car picks up power and even the pitch of the motor changes tone.
ddnspider is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2018, 05:52 PM
  #17  
KCS
Moderator
iTrader: (19)
 
KCS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Conroe, TX
Posts: 7,851
Default

Originally Posted by ddnspider View Post
Was it overfilled to the point of whipping around the crank? If so it would make sense. How less oil fixes an oil pressure drop doesn't compute lol....but if it was again whipping around the crank I suppose that makes sense. Too many other people have logged data and g force during a pull and showed the drop in pressure that was aided by overfilling the pan. This is more real world as opposed to an engine Dyno. Either way it's cool to see changes like that. I always get a kick out dialing in a tune and feeling how the car picks up power and even the pitch of the motor changes tone.
Yeah, that's the assumption, hp losses and oil pressure issues were from windage and oil aeration, yet they weren't simulating the g forces from accelerating either. It was a good experiment to get the brain working.

I have a pretty long stroke, so to address this I went with a Moroso 7qt pan and a remote filter, however, I don't plan to fill the pan to capacity. Just how ever much oil the engine needs to sustain pressure and keep the windage to a minimum. I hope it's worth something because plumbing the oil lines was a real PITA!
KCS is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2018, 06:06 PM
  #18  
TECH Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (26)
 
ddnspider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: FL
Posts: 6,916
Default

Originally Posted by KCS View Post
Yeah, that's the assumption, hp losses and oil pressure issues were from windage and oil aeration, yet they weren't simulating the g forces from accelerating either. It was a good experiment to get the brain working.

I have a pretty long stroke, so to address this I went with a Moroso 7qt pan and a remote filter, however, I don't plan to fill the pan to capacity. Just how ever much oil the engine needs to sustain pressure and keep the windage to a minimum. I hope it's worth something because plumbing the oil lines was a real PITA!
Nice....just make sure you don't use the slow analog gauge as confirmation you aren't dropping pressure at WOT.

Where are all these minds about engine break in lol??
ddnspider is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2018, 06:34 PM
  #19  
TECH Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Central Cal.
Posts: 5,086
Default

Originally Posted by ddnspider View Post
Nice....just make sure you don't use the slow analog gauge as confirmation you aren't dropping pressure at WOT.

Where are all these minds about engine break in lol??
Hiding in the wood work, my friend..... lol
G Atsma is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2018, 07:03 PM
  #20  
TECH Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (26)
 
ddnspider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: FL
Posts: 6,916
Default

Originally Posted by G Atsma View Post
Hiding in the wood work, my friend..... lol
All these threads on here that everybody gives their 2 cents and bickers over the minutiae....and a rare interesting topic and nada other than you guys. I was hoping to see all the engine builders like Mamo and other vendors jump in. At least we got KCS who knows what he's doing
ddnspider is online now  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: