DanO

wow.. this came back from the dead...

CTSmechanic

iTrader: (2)

Its better to keep your mouth shut and let people think your an idiot rather than open it and remove all doubt...

chuntington101

im sorry but you cant diss F1 engines like that! you try making a 2.4ltr V8 that will spin to over 20,000rpm (limited to 19K) and make over 750bhp. thats not bad going is it??

also a few things about just how well built these things are. at cold they are effectively solid as the clearances are that tight. they are increadably light and small for their size. they are not just designed to last 9 seconds like a top fueler but more like 3hour plus full race speeds. they dont get to use nittro but have to use normal fuels (they are still pretty special! ).

finally you shouldn't look at just the engine. a F1 car is a total package and that includes the driver!

a recent topgear program over here put a good driver into a ranault F1 car (one of the V10s) to see what he could do. he couldn't even drive the thing fast enough to keep the tires and breaks warm!

now this is just F1 but im sure for all the others you listed there is the same about of detail and time taken to build them.

thanks Chris.

PS using your way of thinking, top fuel dragers are cr*p cos they cnat pull over 3gs in the corners and upto 6 on the brakes!

gun5l1ng3r

But neither of them can make left turns for 3 hours straight!

F1 is the epitomy of handling cars and longevity, while Top Fuel just holds the title of most badass motors on the planet! (20,000 RPMs is a close second to 6,000HP in my book..)

chuntington101

i see where you are coming from, and they are great for pub talk, but yuo wont see anything from them on a road car.

now F1 is pushing boundries in design and engineering. you only have to look how good some of these paddle shift boxes are these days. all that tech has come from F1. god only know how much aero thats on cars these days is thanks to them. and have i mentioned carbon brakes??? im just waiting for a carbon fiber gearbox to be built for road cars!

there is no right or wrong aswers as its just our opinions, which is why is good to talk about this cr*p! lol

cheers Chris.

Harold Sutton

Everything in these engines is specialized. Those heads, which have been redesigned for this coming year flow about 410-420 cfm. The 2.072 estimate for maximum power is for average compression and RPM. That max goes out the window when the rpm goes through the roof. The engine masters is limited to pump gas and uses a rpm range of 2500-6500 rpm. The NMCA Pro Stock class cars are turning up near 10K also and make 1140 H.P. out of 525 cubic inches. The light rings and vacuum pumps are worth 55 H.P. on a mid size engine. My son said you could rope start his 598" BBC. Some of the more technical engines use multiple vacuum pumps, spray bar cooling on the valve springs and underside of the pistons, oil management and all use dry sump oiling systems. They are probably all using using ceramic bearings at every critical wheel and rear end bearing position. Lots more things we mere mortals don't know about.

briannutter

BMEP is a tougher nut to crack than horsepower. Therefore I respect the classes where the formula has been kept the same for years, yet the gains keep coming. That's talent. I'd say the components in a NHRA pro stock engine or Cup engine are better optimized than those in F1 as a whole because they've been working against the same formula longer. Knowledge of materials between the 3 camps is about the same, but the rulesmakers have limited their usage.

2 strokes, rotaries, turbines, OHV vs. uhv, OHC vs. UHC, coil springs versus airsprings, injection versus carb, the number of combinations is endless. What would happen if you gave a 5 horse briggs to Warren Johnson, Robert Yates, Heinz Paschen and said here's $5000, I'm giving you the month off, and we'll have a dyno test in a month. Do you think they would beat the guy currently building the best 5 horse briggs race motors today for go-carts?

chuntington101

thats a good point about keeping it the same. i read a artical a Coswroth Engineer wrote regarding the swtich from running the old V10 engines for just the race weekend to runing them for two weekends. he said "everything needs redesigning"!!!!

the problem with F1 is the ruels dont sit still for long enough. whenever the rules change the big teasm pile money into them to maximise them as much as possable. this means that the engines at the start of the seasson are cr*p compeared to the ones at the end!

im not sure how it is in nascar but in F1 its not allways about all out power. due to the way the engines run, hugely high rpms more than what GP bikes run(!!), its the way they map the engines aswell. like the GP bikes its about making the power useable and driveable. comoing out of a tight hairpin bend and just spinning the rear tires dose nothing for lap times! traction controle (andother thing that F1 has really pushed forward on road cars) helps but its not the answer and a well tuned engine thats easy to drive will always be more effective!

anyway hope you have all had a nice Christmas.

Chris.

Ari G

iTrader: (25)

The F1 fuel is not real pump gas,the % of each chemicals is totally diffrent

Comparing F1,NASCAR & NHRA is just like comparing Apples,Oranges & Bananas

Z ROADSTER

Well lets see now , A top fuel dragster puts out ( 750 horse power ) out of each of its 8 cylinders , right ?
Case closed ! Say no more !

Steve Bryant

iTrader: (1)

Dan O, I'm glad to see this thread revived as it is a good one.

Brian, you make some excellent points. I would want to know though, if you want the modified B&S engine to run for 30 seconds or several hours? Do you want a narrow or broad powerband? All of these things have to be considered differently in the various racing games.

Z Roadster, you can say no more and consider the case closed if you choose, but I would encourage you to keep an open mind! There are things to be taught and learned by all . . . you and me included.

I think that it's important to consider that reliability/durability and power to weight ratios are important in all racing engine design. However the balance points of these considerations influence the overall design goals and execution. First consider that a top fuel dragster is mainly focused on maximum power output and transferring that into straight line acceleration. Then, the whole game changes when you have to consider handling in turns, fuel economy and braking (any oval track motor sport) and again when you have to add full spectrum handling (SCCA/F1/etc).

Steve

slick1851

From my understanding the older turbo F1 cars were to dangerous, and thats when they started putting a lid on things

Just like group B rally, cars were getting to fast to be safe so they started limiting them

Ari G

iTrader: (25)

5-6Bar on 2l engines making 1500hp+,using "pump fuel"

The Fuel rule was that you could only use chemicals fond in pump fuel but he mix was 97% toluene and 3% N-heptine,or close to that,so that´s not really pump fuel

CTSmechanic

iTrader: (2)

I think that to understand the engine you have to understand the rules which govern the series... NASCAR teams have been working with the same basic foundations for 30 years... 358 inches 1 830 carb... Heads and blocks supplyed by the manufacturer... Its the perfect example of refinement....back when it was 18 and 23 deg stuff 600 hp was a big deal.. then 600 to the tire... now its creaping up on 900 horse and 750+ to the tire..New heads and new mfg's have raised the bar... Chevy with the SB2 in 97 98 99 then Dodge with the R5 Ford with the SC1 Toyota with the phase 11 now chevy with the R07. Materials have gotten better than anyone would of thought 10 years ago allowing lighter more reliable packages....If there were no rules then Im sure a cup motor aould be a 2500 hp twin turbo something or other.... but theres lots and lots of rules...If you have even been to a post race tear down you'd see this...When you think of what they are.... 358 inches single 830 carb... pushrods .... on race gas making well over 800 hp 9300 RPM's (they would be over 10,000 if not for gear ratio rules)

Sparetire

Its rapidly getting to the point where humans are the limiting factor. F1 cars are slower than they need to be due to driver controlled shifting for instance. The sick thing about those cars as a whole though is that while the newbies who have been running around in Formula 3000 do learn to harness the acceleration of the F1s OK after a time, they have massive troubles dealing with the deceleration under braking.

Imagine 5Gs around a tight oval track. 25 laps in you would start seeing drivers pass out and become grease spots on the wall.

Its sad, but the regs are there for a reason. I wish I had been born to see the days when the drivers needed all the power and handling and breaking they could get.

Pretty soon we will need genetically engineered drivers to handle this stuff. It'll have massive inner-ear parts for balance and equilibrium, shorter extremities and a bigger heart for circulation under Gs. Probably run at the metabolism of a rabid humming bird. They will feed it sucrose and protein or something.

germeezy1

They were 1.5 liter engines and BMW was putting out over 1400 hp in qualifying trim. BMW actually used production car blocks that had mileage on them for longevity reasons.

chuntington101

i heard that BMW used production blocks to. it was the 2002ti engine wasn't it?? they slanted it right over to get the weight as low as they could and then reduced the stroke and strapped a turbo on! lol

also guys its worth noting that the F1 car back then where pushing thecnolagy as much as they are today! turbocharging back then was new to that platform and that those kind of power levels. the turbos used would be classed as CRAP these days and the engine managment (did they even run any??) wouldn't be enough to operate a digital watch these days!

the same gose for the Group B rally cars. everything was new back then! turbos wehre still in there infancy on racing cars, elctronics where still pants, materials where nothing like we have today. even the 4WD system where best discribed as agriculturely! compeard to a new WRC car, i think they would be slow on a rough and twisty gravel surface.

Cheers Chris.

chuntington101

i was only joking and its nothing like real pump fuel! i think the rules say they can only use the same chemcials as whats in pump fuel but they can mix them how they like. not sure though.

its something else thats really fasonating about F1 i feel and is something else they push as hard as they can. shell even sell fuel over here that is supposed to be dirived from F1 fuels (yeah right!). lol.

you are right on the F1, NASCAR, NHRA and apples, oranges and bananas thing, they all teast good to me!

Chris.

chuntington101

i think the Germans have already tired that with Schumacher.

Ari G

iTrader: (25)

I rememberd it as 2l,but you both are probably right

Yes they used prod. blocks that where used to get internal stress out of them or sum like that

Yes they sell the Formula V-power 99octane here,