View Poll Results: Which do you feel to be superior in a racecar/track/roadcourse application?
Hydroformed Aluminum Frame
79
62.20%
Hydroformed Steel Frame
48
37.80%
Voters: 127. You may not vote on this poll
Aluminum VS Steel Frame
05-10-2006, 06:50 PM
#1
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Aluminum VS Steel Frame I've been asking this question on CorvetteForum aswell as DC but I realized i'd probably get my best answers from this forum. Although the question refers more specifically to the C6 and C6 Z06 frames I'd like all your opinions! Below is what I wrote in the other forum.
If you'd like too don't forget to answer the above poll!
I've been asking this question around lately and hopefully this thread will join all the answers. I have somewhat of a fascination with the difference in both frames, some Z owners seem to lay weight on the "superiority" of their cars over the base C6. The Frame is one of the unmodifiable aspects of our cars and I was wanting to know the true advantages Vs the true disadvantages of Aluminum Vs Steel in the C6 frame application. I know the steel frame to be undeniably stiffer than the Aluminum, not only based on the properties of Aluminum but also from a post quoting a GM engineer mentioning it was 97% as rigid as the steel frame including its magnesium fixed roof. This said, the Aluminum frame is undeniably lighter.
Browsing this forum i've learned that good Torisonal Chassis Rigidity is essential in a well handling race car. On the other hand, weight is also the enemy of a performance car. I can understand the advantages of the aluminum application in the street scenario but is the Z06 Aluminum frame really superior? For the highly stressful racecar application what do you believe to be the best choice in frames. I take notice that although the Aluminum frame is 97% as rigid, which is really close to the steel it does so with a fixed roof. In a racecar/track application the Steel frame would also be accompanied by a fixed roof. Judging that Aluminum flexes more and also has no Fatigue limit and so overtime is more prone to damage I can't seem to place it to be as superior in all extreme situations as I feel steel. Set me straight, maybe this thread will justify what I feel or give me more trust in aluminum. All my thoughts are based almost purely on speculation so once again I hope the experts chime in.
By the way I know it's rather annoying that I keep bringing this subject up regarding both cars but it's a subject I feel not only is appliable to our vehicles but all vehicles aswell as vehicles in the future. I keep dropping to PM's to certain forum members regarding this and I feel i'm somewhat bombarding with my questions so i'll leave it to this thread hopefully to help me out with all the technical aspects that I may or may not understand. I'm up for reading any technical data you provide no matter how intensive it may be. Thank you!
If you'd like too don't forget to answer the above poll!
I've been asking this question around lately and hopefully this thread will join all the answers. I have somewhat of a fascination with the difference in both frames, some Z owners seem to lay weight on the "superiority" of their cars over the base C6. The Frame is one of the unmodifiable aspects of our cars and I was wanting to know the true advantages Vs the true disadvantages of Aluminum Vs Steel in the C6 frame application. I know the steel frame to be undeniably stiffer than the Aluminum, not only based on the properties of Aluminum but also from a post quoting a GM engineer mentioning it was 97% as rigid as the steel frame including its magnesium fixed roof. This said, the Aluminum frame is undeniably lighter.
Browsing this forum i've learned that good Torisonal Chassis Rigidity is essential in a well handling race car. On the other hand, weight is also the enemy of a performance car. I can understand the advantages of the aluminum application in the street scenario but is the Z06 Aluminum frame really superior? For the highly stressful racecar application what do you believe to be the best choice in frames. I take notice that although the Aluminum frame is 97% as rigid, which is really close to the steel it does so with a fixed roof. In a racecar/track application the Steel frame would also be accompanied by a fixed roof. Judging that Aluminum flexes more and also has no Fatigue limit and so overtime is more prone to damage I can't seem to place it to be as superior in all extreme situations as I feel steel. Set me straight, maybe this thread will justify what I feel or give me more trust in aluminum. All my thoughts are based almost purely on speculation so once again I hope the experts chime in.
By the way I know it's rather annoying that I keep bringing this subject up regarding both cars but it's a subject I feel not only is appliable to our vehicles but all vehicles aswell as vehicles in the future. I keep dropping to PM's to certain forum members regarding this and I feel i'm somewhat bombarding with my questions so i'll leave it to this thread hopefully to help me out with all the technical aspects that I may or may not understand. I'm up for reading any technical data you provide no matter how intensive it may be. Thank you!
05-10-2006, 07:04 PM
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A lot of it has to do with the specific alloy of aluminum. While pure aluminum is actually stronger than steel by weight, it's not as flexible, so to speak, and will break sooner than steel. Now 7075 alloy though, has about 100,000 psi yield strength, compared to 36,000 psi for mild steel. So depending on the aluminum alloy, it could be much better or much worse than steel.
Titanium would be another good choice if you had a wallet the size of your trunk.
Titanium would be another good choice if you had a wallet the size of your trunk.
05-11-2006, 12:43 AM
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This probably won't help any, but you might find it interesting . . . the Corvette Racing C6.R's use hydroformed steel chasis, but I believe it's more do to rules in the ALMS than material preference. Sadly I have yet to take Strength of Materials, so I'm little help here but hopefully we can both learn something from this thread.
*edit* forgot to mention that the C6.R's use the same frame rails as the regular C6.
*edit* forgot to mention that the C6.R's use the same frame rails as the regular C6.
Last edited by KillerBrink182; 05-11-2006 at 12:51 AM.
05-11-2006, 01:23 AM
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Yeah I also hear it's due to rules, but I wonder if they'd switch to aluminum. It's still awesome that the C6 has the same steel rails. In the end we'll have to see what happens with the aluminum. Either way i'm not sure if I should get a new Z06 or heavily mod my C6 for the track.
05-11-2006, 01:32 AM
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Another thing I forgot . . . I'll be going to the Lone Star Grand Prix on the 12th to watch the Corvettes race, so hopefully I'll be able to get some chat time with one of the engineers or someone else that has extensive knowledge about the chasis. When I get back I'll give you all the information/opinions I can gather from the people that actually make these cars race winners!
05-11-2006, 02:09 AM
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Great bud I really appreciate it! If ya'll want i'm attempting to gather as much information as I can, so i'm just attempting to connect as many car techies I can to lend their opinions in the following thread.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...1388625&page=2
If you want just lend some information to that thread to help keep things together
I can't wait for the information you receive!
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...1388625&page=2
If you want just lend some information to that thread to help keep things together
I can't wait for the information you receive!
Trending Topics
05-15-2006, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by H8 LUZN
www.matweb.com
...I will say that on my teams race vehicle we go with a 4130 steel tubing even though we can use aluminum if we wanted to
...I will say that on my teams race vehicle we go with a 4130 steel tubing even though we can use aluminum if we wanted to
Speaking of material choices, since stiffness is usually far more important than UTS for race car chassis (roll hoops perhaps excepted) and all steel alloys have essentially the same modulus of elasticity, why use chromoly? It makes sense in very thin tubes, where dent resistance becomes important, but elsewhere...?
05-15-2006, 07:38 PM
#10
TECH Senior Member
A space-frame/chassis will have some components in compression and some in tension,
so this is why you want higher UTS/YTS.
I'm not an expert, this is just what I remember from college classes a long time ago
(I'm an EE but I did take various ME classes also (wanted to and was required to)).
Interesting question, adds value to the thread...
so this is why you want higher UTS/YTS.
I'm not an expert, this is just what I remember from college classes a long time ago
(I'm an EE but I did take various ME classes also (wanted to and was required to)).
Interesting question, adds value to the thread...
05-15-2006, 09:44 PM
#11
TECH Enthusiast
Originally Posted by 2002_Z28_Six_Speed
I feel that aluminum was used for weight concerns and not ridigity.
Someone earlier mention 7075 as being much stronger. While that's true, it's probably impossible to hydroform--at least as the technology exists today. Plus, there could be corrosion issues with 7075.
05-15-2006, 11:51 PM
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Well this is straight from the guys at Corvette Racing. I got a chance to talk to several of the crew members including Binks (the crew chief) at the Lone Star Grand Prix and it boils down to the fact that stock for stock, the ZO6 aluminum frame would be torn apart from the races. Material strengths or not, if you're talking about stock frame rails my (and Corvette Racing's) vote goes to steel. Do you want to be the one to argue with champions?!
*edit* even after all of the strengthening and reinforcing that goes into their #3 and #4 cars, the aluminum frames just wouldn't hold or provide what they need . . . they also replace the aluminum A-arms with steel ones. (well they replace practically everything, but i thought it might be good info)
Hope all this helps. Great info coming in BTW . . . an aspiring engineering could get lost in the materials area alone.
*edit* even after all of the strengthening and reinforcing that goes into their #3 and #4 cars, the aluminum frames just wouldn't hold or provide what they need . . . they also replace the aluminum A-arms with steel ones. (well they replace practically everything, but i thought it might be good info)
Hope all this helps. Great info coming in BTW . . . an aspiring engineering could get lost in the materials area alone.
Last edited by KillerBrink182; 05-15-2006 at 11:58 PM.
05-16-2006, 01:22 AM
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Thank you I really appreciate it! Don't forget to drop us any other awesome info i'm more than looking forward to hearing it!
Last edited by Tavarez; 05-16-2006 at 01:28 AM.
05-16-2006, 06:38 AM
#14
if you want the strrongest "chassis" for the least weight then i would go for carbon fiber! you can get race/track cars with carbon tubs now but they are still exspencive!
a VERY good alternavtive to carbon fiber is a steel space frame! these have been proven for years (esp. over here in the kit car market) and canbe made exstreamaly strong! the problem is they can be costly make as a one off.
back to the topic of a road car! well id gr for ally! you CAN make an ally chassis just as strong and just as rigid as steel! it just takes good enginering. the lotus elise is a great example of what you can do with ally.
thanks Chris.
a VERY good alternavtive to carbon fiber is a steel space frame! these have been proven for years (esp. over here in the kit car market) and canbe made exstreamaly strong! the problem is they can be costly make as a one off.
back to the topic of a road car! well id gr for ally! you CAN make an ally chassis just as strong and just as rigid as steel! it just takes good enginering. the lotus elise is a great example of what you can do with ally.
thanks Chris.
05-16-2006, 09:58 AM
#15
From a clean sheet of paper the trade of is the ratio of stiffness (elasticity) vs. yield and fatigue strength, with the boundries of buckling (too thin), packaging, corrosion, and fabrication (machinablity, formability, weldability).
One of the knock on the Z06 aluminum frame is that it was a design replacement for a steel frame. If the car had been designed for an aluminum frame, the boxed sections would have been larger.
I believe the use on the Z06 was a GM test for future production car use, more than a move toward the ultimate car. I imagine they might have used in on the Cadillac XLS-V, if it wasn't a roadster.
One of the knock on the Z06 aluminum frame is that it was a design replacement for a steel frame. If the car had been designed for an aluminum frame, the boxed sections would have been larger.
I believe the use on the Z06 was a GM test for future production car use, more than a move toward the ultimate car. I imagine they might have used in on the Cadillac XLS-V, if it wasn't a roadster.
05-16-2006, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by KillerBrink182
Well this is straight from the guys at Corvette Racing. I got a chance to talk to several of the crew members including Binks (the crew chief) at the Lone Star Grand Prix and it boils down to the fact that stock for stock, the ZO6 aluminum frame would be torn apart from the races. Material strengths or not, if you're talking about stock frame rails my (and Corvette Racing's) vote goes to steel. Do you want to be the one to argue with champions?!
*edit* even after all of the strengthening and reinforcing that goes into their #3 and #4 cars, the aluminum frames just wouldn't hold or provide what they need . . . they also replace the aluminum A-arms with steel ones. (well they replace practically everything, but i thought it might be good info)
Hope all this helps. Great info coming in BTW . . . an aspiring engineering could get lost in the materials area alone.
*edit* even after all of the strengthening and reinforcing that goes into their #3 and #4 cars, the aluminum frames just wouldn't hold or provide what they need . . . they also replace the aluminum A-arms with steel ones. (well they replace practically everything, but i thought it might be good info)
Hope all this helps. Great info coming in BTW . . . an aspiring engineering could get lost in the materials area alone.
05-16-2006, 10:20 PM
#18
Originally Posted by LTSpeed
There is also a lot of talk that the '07 C6's will be sharing the Z06 aluminum frame.
05-17-2006, 03:01 PM
#19
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Originally Posted by DavidNJ
I believe they needed the fixed roof to regain stiffness. Wouldn't that make C6 Coupe and Convertible versions unlikely?
As for a convertible, it wouldn't be the first 'vert to need stiffeners!
05-17-2006, 03:44 PM
#20
The safety factor would apply to yield and fatigue strength. In this case it would be a loss of stiffness that would show up cowl shake and other not nice things. Steel is actually stiffer per unit weight than aluminum. However, since alumnum is thicker for a given stiffness, it is advantageous where buckling is the limiting factor. For example, how thin can you make a wheel rim?