67LSX454

A question to any of those with experience here.
Can a rotor from a 13 vane pump (such as from a 4L65E) be installed in a 10 vane pump housing with a 10 vane pump slide?
I can across an excellent deal for a billet 13 vane pump rotor and was told by the manufacturer that it's a "drop-in replacement".
Drop-in is relative though.
Transmission is a 91 4L60.
I came across this tech article at Pro Built Automatics. It touches on the subject but my year of transmission is excluded from the conversation.

http://www.700r4l60e.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5

If it's a matter of getting a 13 vane pump slide to go along with the rotor and dropping them into a 10 vane housing (checking side clearances of course), then that's easy enough. If it's question of having to adapt a 13 vane pump housing into the 91 case, I'd rather not.

Jays_SSZ28

iTrader: (2)

You can put a 13 vane pump in a 1982 700R4 (4L60) all the way up to whatever year they came with them from the factory. No modifications necessary.

67LSX454

By 13 vane pump, do you mean the entire assembly? That is a complete housing?
I'm asking specifically if a 13 vane rotor can be used in a place of a 10 vane rotor in a 10 vane pump.
The reason I ask is because I have a complete transmission (91 4L60 being rebuilt) and have come across an excellent deal on a billet 13 vane pump rotor. Just the rotor and no other parts are included.
If I can simply substitute that for the existing 10 vane rotor then I'm set.

Jays_SSZ28

iTrader: (2)

Yes to all. You can replace just the slide. You can replace just the rotor. In fact heres all the 10 vane parts left over from when I swapped a 13 vane kit into a 4L60/700R4 last year.

You seem to already know to make sure anything you replace is the same thickness as the pump pocket plus clearance.

You can take the slide out of one pump, the rotor out of another, put it in any 700R4/4L60/4L60E/65E/70E, etc. as long as the pump pocket clearance is ideal with all the swapped in parts it'll work.


Left overs from common pump rotor upgrade.



Slide, you can replace it if you want to.

67LSX454

That's the plan. It was too good of a deal to pass up at $170 CDN. This stuff is typically double that cost up here (and from a Canadian manufacturer no less).
Thanks for the info.

mrvedit

Jays's is exactly correct.
I would suggest also replacing the steel ring and the o-ring seal under the slide.
On final assembly, don't forget the o-ring!

I realize parts are more expensive in Canada, but $170 CDN seems high.

At least in the US, I suggest contacting sponsor Finish Line Transmission (FLT) for a billet pump rotor designed and built to their specifications. Prices might have gone up, but it should be well under $100 US. You might need to add the vanes and rings, but you can use those from a basic 13-vane kit for around $30.

67LSX454

As a follow up to my previous post, it'd interesting to note that the transmission in the Chevelle IS a Finish Line Transmission. Picked it up in Chicago about 5 years ago.
Never thought to look for a rotor through them. That said, while they don't have a listing for the rotor specifically, it is a $100 (USD) upgrade on a few of their units. To my door usually doubles the cost so it's pretty much a wash.
Thanks for that just the same. (Wish I still had business in the states. Car parts were aplenty when I was making regular trips to the Chicago area).

mrvedit

Chuck (owner of FLT) and I discussed several years ago getting a new source for billet rotors and I worked on getting one spec'd and built in the Detroit area. Before I was ready to pay for a prototype, Chuck found a new source. My current trans has this rotor in it.

67LSX454

I was a little surprised to find a manufacturer on this side of the border although TCS's location (on the west coast of BC) has a thriving international racing community. It makes it a little easier not having to deal with border issues.
For what it's worth mrvedit, it was your thread here that lead me to the PN's for the planetary gear sets I've picked up for this transmission and another for a spare. I'll say thanks for that.
We'll see where this rebuild gets me. I'm not expecting to stress the components too mych as this unit is destined for a mild 450/450 355 Gen 1 SBC. I'd hope that at the very least I've built some longevity into it.
This particular failure came about when the splines in the torque converter turbine gave up. Best guess is that the continuous beating of having too harsh a 1-2 shift, even at part throttle (or idling up the street for that matter) and the high mileage (maybe 50k) eventually took it's toll. One of things I'll have to address this time around is balancing the elevated line pressures with the shift logic via the shift kit (TransGo 700-2&3) , accumulators and associated valving. Last time around I selected the firmest of everything in terms of springs. That might have not been the best idea.
(somewhere along the way one of my posts was omitted so I apologize if the continuity has been lost somewhat).

67LSX454

Now it's becoming a little contradictory.
This reply from a member here (and elsewhere) who'd advice I solicited earlier.

Re: 13 Vane (billet) Rotor/10 Vane Slide and Housing

"DO NOT use the 13 vane rotor in the 700R4 or any pump that did not use the 13 vane setup to start with without doing the modifications that I state here. You lose pump volume if you do not do the. You would have to get a back half of a 1995 and up PWM pump and copy (match) the entrance and exit slots of the back of the PWM pump to the 700R4 back half of the pump. You will need to use a Dremel or end mill and this will take some work. Then use the 13 vane slide with the 13 vane rotor. Now it will work correctly. Just use the 10 vane rotor setup in all 700R4's, they work fine. Add the TransGo steel rings and priming spring to the setup to make it bullet proof. The 13 vane setup is "quieter" than the 10 vane, but most people are not putting them in "real quiet" vehicles."

Now I'm unsure of what to think. The above does not say that it won't work but comments on reduced volume. Reduced volume compared to what? 10 vane? 13 vane? Or am I setting myself up for failure here?
I've asked the above poster for clarification.

Jays_SSZ28

iTrader: (2)

Well, theres no noticeable difference between a 10 vane and 13 vane as far as driving the vehicle. Some say the 13 vane was used to reduce noise, others claim it's to increase volume.

DavidBoren

Unless the 13 vane rotor's vanes are thinner than the vanes used in the 10 vane rotor, then yes, you will be decreasing the internal volume of the pump by the volume of the 3 extra vanes. Does that matter? I don't know, but it is pretty simple to understand logically.

The modifications in the quote sound more like a entrance/exit timing thing, more than a volume thing. The 13 vane rotor may favor different entrance/exit port characteristics versus the 10 vane rotor. But I doubt there is any serious harm running without grinding the pump housing. Other people have said it is a direct swap without any mention of grinding, so I would imagine you would probably be ok without the modifications to the pump housing.

mrvedit

Looking in the ATSG Update Handbook, it states that them pump internals (worm tracks) are identical between the 10-vane '95-'96 pump and the later 13 vane pumps.

CORRECTION: Expert PBA (Dana) says my sentence above is incorrect. See post #20 below. I apologize for my mistake.

However it mentions that the pump slide is different between 10 and 13 vane units.
The pump internals are for even a '95-'96 is different than earlier units, but that is likely due only to the PWM change.

I have no knowledge of anything earlier than '95 and certainly not 4L60/700R4.

From what I have read the 10-vane might have a bit higher volume, but the 13 provides more even pressure. I think these pumps have plenty of volume.

67LSX454

So I've heard. The noise thing more than anything.

That's the part that's general consensus. Drop in and go. And yes, the volume things makes sense.
But reading below regarding interchangeability...

That I haven't read. I have the ATSG THM 700-R4 "Update Handbook" which lists all of the changes made to the 700 over it's years of production (up to 1993) as well as changes made to it's successors, the 4L60E and 65E, and which upgrades are directly adaptable to the older models. No mention of the pumps other than the change from 7 vanes to 10 in 1987.

http://shop.ukrtrans.biz/wp-content/...gs/TH700R4.pdf

mrvedit

In the ATSG 4L60E Update Manual page 31, it states "Longer Porting Slots in the 13 Vane Pump Slide". I don't know exactly what the means, but its a stated difference.
Since you likely need to buy a complete 13 vane kit anyway for the other parts, it will have the correct Pump Slide.

Jays_SSZ28

iTrader: (2)

I think the best answer would be to call Dana at Pro Built.

There must be a lot of people out there with 13 vane pump upgrades and no modifications to the pump body slots to take full advantage of it.

67LSX454

The quote in post #10 is Dana from Pro Built.
His answer, although much appreciated, created more questions than it answered. I've replied to his post on his web-site and am waiting for an answer.
I've never considered volume or noise to be an issue with a 700 or a 4L60E. What I'm after, bottom line, is durability. The billet rotor isn't likely to give up as I've seen the OEM pieces do.
also, using the 13 vane vane pump slide, to me, only makes sense, even if the general population says "swap and go" regarding the new rotor into in the old slide.

Jays_SSZ28

iTrader: (2)

I mean get him on the phone. I hope he doesn't mind this suggestion.
I've talked to him over an hour one night, he not only answered my questions but he also gave me some good advice, and just good conversation. He's a good guy and knows what he's talking about.

DavidBoren

Personally, if you already have the 13 vane billet rotor, I think you should probably pick up the 13 vane pump piece to go with it. I fully understand that you can install and go, as many have gotten away with, and some have suggested. I do not see any harm in using the 13 vane rotor with the 10 vane pump housing, but in the interest of doing things correctly the first time around... I think you should invest in the 13 vane pump housing. This really should not be as hard as we are all making it. 13 vane rotor... 13 vane pump housing... problem solved, problem staying solved.

PBA

"Looking in the ATSG Update Handbook, it states that the pump internals (worm tracks) are identical between the 10-vane '95-'96 pump and the later 13 vane pumps." Wrong....
Go look at the back half on a 1997 and up pump and you will see the difference. In a street vehicle I gather the 13 vane rotor in a 10 vane pump is not a major No No. The billet is stronger, but I have rarely seen the rotors present a problem in terms of breakage. GM went from 10 to 13 vanes and other pump mods for quietness and for smoother pump pressures below 3,000 rpm at WOT. You can hear the difference on a transmission dyno between the two.