Exner 4l60e
02-14-2008, 12:39 AM
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Exner 4l60e So i live in houston and needed the transmission rebuilt or replaced. So i figured id get the stocker built. I asked around and was recomended to go to exner transmission. He was supposed to build me a transmission capable of 555 ft/lbs of tq. Anyways he built it 3 times and the same thing happened every time. The 3rd and 4th gear would burn up and i would lose them. Finally he replaced the internals from another 4l60 he had laying around. This time instead of 3rd and fourth going out 1st to second is shifting slow and i think burning up my second gear. my buddys dad has a snap on scan tool and we recorded what the transmission was doing. it had great line pressure between every shift. Only 1-2 took .45 where 2-3 and 3-4 shifts only took .25 and .24 to shift. Im assuming this is how long it takes it to shift in seconds. The transmission did this as soon as i got the car back. The guy at exner says it has to be the car telling the transmission to shift wrong and thats why its screwing up. I went to mti and they told me the tune on the tranny was stock.... I asked around and everyone said exner was great for older turbo trannys but they wouldnt take anything new to him. So honest opinion. What yall think. He said he wont mess with it anymore so im out 1400$. Do yall think its the tranny or my computer? Wierd that it would be screwed up as soon as i get it.
02-14-2008, 05:17 PM
#2
There are only a handful of transmission builders that have been able to consistently get a 4L60E to hold up to that kind of power. The 3-4 is one of the many weak areas of the 4L60Es.
Do it once and do it right the next time and don't look back. You are likely getting just upgraded cltches and bands in the Exner transmission. They can build the old school stuff pretty good, but as far as our sponsors go, I know FLT and Circle D have earned a positive reputation getting the 4L60E to hold up to big HP.
Do yourself a favor and stop in at Circle D and let Dave show you what they do to get the 4L60E to hold up to big power strokers and power adder cars. It's pretty amazing actually.
Do it once and do it right the next time and don't look back. You are likely getting just upgraded cltches and bands in the Exner transmission. They can build the old school stuff pretty good, but as far as our sponsors go, I know FLT and Circle D have earned a positive reputation getting the 4L60E to hold up to big HP.
Do yourself a favor and stop in at Circle D and let Dave show you what they do to get the 4L60E to hold up to big power strokers and power adder cars. It's pretty amazing actually.
02-14-2008, 06:24 PM
#3
That's right. There are only a handfull of comapnies that I am aware of nationwide that have actually researched and developed the 4L60E into a Racing Transmission. It only takes a cursory search here at Tech to find out it takes much, much more than good parts to get a 60E to the point it can take some serious abuse and not fail.
If I had to guess... the current local builder is good at what he does and has done, but he is not well versed in these units. You cannot take a good 700R4 builder and hand him a 60E and expect it to live long in a high horsepower combination. It is possible that there is a problem in the servo now.
But, that is a mute point. If this builder did not understand the unit well enough to keep the 3/4's living in the 2st build or two it is best he not spend any more time on it. Not a shot at him, it's just that he does not posses the knowledge necessary to finish the job.
Certainly Vince at FLT and the gang at Circle D have game... but if you would like to discuss your options in detail feel free to give me a call in the a.m. I am delivering a car to a customer who is pulling in from Houston early and then have another coming in from Austin, but I will be free mid morning or so.
Good Luck either way. Hate to see you go through this.
g
If I had to guess... the current local builder is good at what he does and has done, but he is not well versed in these units. You cannot take a good 700R4 builder and hand him a 60E and expect it to live long in a high horsepower combination. It is possible that there is a problem in the servo now.
But, that is a mute point. If this builder did not understand the unit well enough to keep the 3/4's living in the 2st build or two it is best he not spend any more time on it. Not a shot at him, it's just that he does not posses the knowledge necessary to finish the job.
Certainly Vince at FLT and the gang at Circle D have game... but if you would like to discuss your options in detail feel free to give me a call in the a.m. I am delivering a car to a customer who is pulling in from Houston early and then have another coming in from Austin, but I will be free mid morning or so.
Good Luck either way. Hate to see you go through this.
g
02-14-2008, 06:52 PM
#4
If you are running a stock tune, then I would guess it is a problem with the transmission, but you never know. We can check it out for you if you want to bring it by assuming it is drive-able. If you are interested I will ask David when he can look at it. David can put our scanner on it and go for a short drive and give you his opinion. PM me and let me know.
We have done a few things for the 60e to get them to hold up. TXCAMSS has proven this with his 9 second time slip. Custom 3-4 clutch pack, custom billet pistons, custom input drums.
Chris
We have done a few things for the 60e to get them to hold up. TXCAMSS has proven this with his 9 second time slip. Custom 3-4 clutch pack, custom billet pistons, custom input drums.
Chris
02-14-2008, 07:42 PM
#5
Man you guys in Texas dont know how good ya got it. The best engine builders, tranny builders, racing weather, gun laws and babes. New england sucks. Sorry for my mid winter rant. carry on and good luck with your trans.
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02-18-2008, 01:13 PM
#10
What is the reason for going to a different unit?
10 years on transmission and 2-3 rebuilds in a high performance application is not bad at all to be honest. Unless of course it has been an abnormally short period of time between builds.
And if that's the case, you need a different builder.
Don't hesitate to give me a call, I can help you with any decisions you are looking at. We help guys with conversions frequently.
g
02-18-2008, 03:47 PM
#11
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I heard the 700r4 or a th350 is a better way to go... what do you think? stay with the 60E? I have had much better luck with it than I have with any of my t-56 cars.
02-18-2008, 04:07 PM
#12
Yes. There is no doubt in my mind that I would stay with the 60E.
The 700r4 is simply the analog version of the 60. The rotating assy is virtually the same.
The 350 is only better if you plan on putting it on a trailer and dragging it to the spots, tracks or car show. 3 speeds are fine if you have massive power and don't drive on the highways much. A 350 Lock Up is tolerable.
But stick with the 60E IMHO. Just be sure to use a high quality builder. Do your homework on who you choose to build it.
g
The 700r4 is simply the analog version of the 60. The rotating assy is virtually the same.
The 350 is only better if you plan on putting it on a trailer and dragging it to the spots, tracks or car show. 3 speeds are fine if you have massive power and don't drive on the highways much. A 350 Lock Up is tolerable.
But stick with the 60E IMHO. Just be sure to use a high quality builder. Do your homework on who you choose to build it.
g
02-18-2008, 04:18 PM
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Thanks for the advice. Guess I will just have it built again, I drive my WS-6 on weekends only, but I do drive on the highway a lot so having overdrive is a necessity especially with 3.73 gears. I get 13MPG as it is. Do you know of any reputable shops in the gainesville/jacksonville Florida area?
02-18-2008, 04:55 PM
#15
Thanks for the advice. Guess I will just have it built again, I drive my WS-6 on weekends only, but I do drive on the highway a lot so having overdrive is a necessity especially with 3.73 gears. I get 13MPG as it is. Do you know of any reputable shops in the gainesville/jacksonville Florida area?
But take that with a grain of salt.... I know many shops cna do it and do it well and they don't advertize here. But.... I know of more shops that say they can handle them but cannot. I have one here now and delivered 2 last week from shops that meant well, tried like hell but could not handle the job.
Do your homework on the shop you choose! We offer shipping nationwide and place a 6 month 6,000 mile warranty on all of our units. What you are looking for is a shop that can handle the job right the first time, providing you with a unit that will last for a very long time.
Don't hesitate to call me if you have any questions about the feasibility and logistics of purchasing a unit from us!
Good Luck either way you go...
Oh... and thanks for the nice comment Chris! I'll be letting you guys know what we found in his unit tomorrow.
g
02-18-2008, 05:12 PM
#16
I have not spoken to the OP today... so this will be a bit of news to him.
But.... when we removed his unit this a.m. the following is what we found. I am posting it here for a very good reason. Not to belittle the guys who did the work... far be it from that. I want the readers to know that if they want a job done right the first time they have to take their car / transmissions to folks who know their cars and actually care about what kind of work goes out the door. Not just shops that have a good reputation or say they can do something.
Previous installation errors and ommissions:
The rubber Vent Tube Hose was pinched close between the Torque Arm Mount and the Extension Housing on one end and was not connected at the Vent Tube on the case itself.
The Bellhousing had 2 bolts missing. The topmost bolt and the hard to get bolt at the 3:00 position on the passengers side.
The Engine block has Bellhousing bolt holes that are hammered on... just like someone used an airgun to try and start the bolts. Pics soon.
The Crossmember Mounting bolts were mismatched. One is not original.
I mention this because some shops do not take the time to actually do the job correctly. All is takes is "giving a damn" to do it right. Nothing more, nothing less.
It truly is frustrating to see work like this. We aren't perfect here at ACE and we sure are not pointing any fingers as it may have been like this way before the aforementioned shop got to it. But, the OP can rest assured it will be correct when it leaves here... key word being correct.
It is my hope that someone can learn from this young mans experience.
g
But.... when we removed his unit this a.m. the following is what we found. I am posting it here for a very good reason. Not to belittle the guys who did the work... far be it from that. I want the readers to know that if they want a job done right the first time they have to take their car / transmissions to folks who know their cars and actually care about what kind of work goes out the door. Not just shops that have a good reputation or say they can do something.
Previous installation errors and ommissions:
The rubber Vent Tube Hose was pinched close between the Torque Arm Mount and the Extension Housing on one end and was not connected at the Vent Tube on the case itself.
The Bellhousing had 2 bolts missing. The topmost bolt and the hard to get bolt at the 3:00 position on the passengers side.
The Engine block has Bellhousing bolt holes that are hammered on... just like someone used an airgun to try and start the bolts. Pics soon.
The Crossmember Mounting bolts were mismatched. One is not original.
I mention this because some shops do not take the time to actually do the job correctly. All is takes is "giving a damn" to do it right. Nothing more, nothing less.
It truly is frustrating to see work like this. We aren't perfect here at ACE and we sure are not pointing any fingers as it may have been like this way before the aforementioned shop got to it. But, the OP can rest assured it will be correct when it leaves here... key word being correct.
It is my hope that someone can learn from this young mans experience.
g
02-19-2008, 12:12 AM
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WoW! Im shocked they would do such a crappy job on simple things like that. Keep the knews coming G. Im waiting for news on what was screwed up internally!
02-19-2008, 11:38 AM
#18
This morning John dissasembled the unit we removed from the vehicle yesterday.
We found several reasons why this unit was symptomatic and had no hope of living long term. We found no "performance" parts in this unit, at least none that we recognize. We have not gone through the valve body in detail, it may have modifications that have not been observed as of yet.
The 1-2 accumulator piston is incorrect. The pin bore size is too large for the pin in the accumulator housing and therefore it could never have had a 1/2 shift that did not slip.
Image of the 3/4 accumulator piston and pin to be used as a reference for how a piston should fit the pin.
The next two images are of the rear planetary gear assy... most importantly the oil slinger / retainer. It should be pressed onto the planet assy in order to retain oil in the gearset for lubrication and cooling. Without this in place these gears would have failed in short order.
Next is the used reverse input drum. In order to achieve 2nd and 4th gears the band is applied and stops this drum from spinning. It is clearly a reused component, notice the sanding marks. This is a common practice in the world of retail transmission rebuilding. However, in the world of high performance transmissions it is unacceptable. In our shop this drum would have not even been given a second chance in any transmission.
Look closely below my thumb in this image and you can see the very typical "blistering" that takes place when steel is overheated. It is very obvious that the band had been slipping on this drum either prior to the original rebuild or after.
Next is the valve body seperator plate. It is used, not a new part. Again, it is common in retail rebuilding shops to reuse this part after cleaning it up. I provided this image in order to point out the torn gasket, notice how one corner is missing. The missing piece was not found inside the transmission. It is not unusual for a gasket to tear upon dissasembly... it is unusual to not find all of the gasket though.
The input sprag is a single cage unit. We would only run the dual cage part in our high performance transmissions. This part was operating properly. It is common to reuse this part in a typical retail environment.
Inferior paper material 3/4 clutches that are on their way out. These clutches have obviously been slipping. There was excessive clearance in the clutch pack upon dissasembly. The color of the top clutch represents the natural color of these components. Notice how they are already compromised at a very low mileage. Our opinion is that these would not have lasted very much longer at all. In our opinion this condition exists because of inferior clutch material and stock 2/3 hydraulics.
This is the unit as we found it.
It is not my intention to point a finger at any one company or to call out any one builder here in this thread. It is my sincere intention to help anyone who is shopping for a high performance 4L60E. There are very good builders out there who simply do not understand this unit. If I can help one other consumer make a good choice about who to have build his transmission then I feel like I have succeeded here.
This is the 3rd unit in a row that we have been asked to make repairs on after another shop has been inside the unit for one reason or another. Be careful who you choose to do your work. I tell all of our potential customers to do their homework prior to deciding on a shop... whether they go with us or not.
No doubt we can help this customer. Won't be long now until he is driving his car with the confidence that his unit was done right the first time at ACE.
g
We found several reasons why this unit was symptomatic and had no hope of living long term. We found no "performance" parts in this unit, at least none that we recognize. We have not gone through the valve body in detail, it may have modifications that have not been observed as of yet.
The 1-2 accumulator piston is incorrect. The pin bore size is too large for the pin in the accumulator housing and therefore it could never have had a 1/2 shift that did not slip.
Image of the 3/4 accumulator piston and pin to be used as a reference for how a piston should fit the pin.
The next two images are of the rear planetary gear assy... most importantly the oil slinger / retainer. It should be pressed onto the planet assy in order to retain oil in the gearset for lubrication and cooling. Without this in place these gears would have failed in short order.
Next is the used reverse input drum. In order to achieve 2nd and 4th gears the band is applied and stops this drum from spinning. It is clearly a reused component, notice the sanding marks. This is a common practice in the world of retail transmission rebuilding. However, in the world of high performance transmissions it is unacceptable. In our shop this drum would have not even been given a second chance in any transmission.
Look closely below my thumb in this image and you can see the very typical "blistering" that takes place when steel is overheated. It is very obvious that the band had been slipping on this drum either prior to the original rebuild or after.
Next is the valve body seperator plate. It is used, not a new part. Again, it is common in retail rebuilding shops to reuse this part after cleaning it up. I provided this image in order to point out the torn gasket, notice how one corner is missing. The missing piece was not found inside the transmission. It is not unusual for a gasket to tear upon dissasembly... it is unusual to not find all of the gasket though.
The input sprag is a single cage unit. We would only run the dual cage part in our high performance transmissions. This part was operating properly. It is common to reuse this part in a typical retail environment.
Inferior paper material 3/4 clutches that are on their way out. These clutches have obviously been slipping. There was excessive clearance in the clutch pack upon dissasembly. The color of the top clutch represents the natural color of these components. Notice how they are already compromised at a very low mileage. Our opinion is that these would not have lasted very much longer at all. In our opinion this condition exists because of inferior clutch material and stock 2/3 hydraulics.
This is the unit as we found it.
It is not my intention to point a finger at any one company or to call out any one builder here in this thread. It is my sincere intention to help anyone who is shopping for a high performance 4L60E. There are very good builders out there who simply do not understand this unit. If I can help one other consumer make a good choice about who to have build his transmission then I feel like I have succeeded here.
This is the 3rd unit in a row that we have been asked to make repairs on after another shop has been inside the unit for one reason or another. Be careful who you choose to do your work. I tell all of our potential customers to do their homework prior to deciding on a shop... whether they go with us or not.
No doubt we can help this customer. Won't be long now until he is driving his car with the confidence that his unit was done right the first time at ACE.
g
02-19-2008, 12:57 PM
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Thanks for another fine technical explanation of the workings inside an auto transmission. I feel bad for the OP, but enjoy learning what goes into a bad rebuild versus a good one.
