Government wants up to 62 mpg by 2025
10-01-2010, 02:36 PM
#1
Government wants up to 62 mpg by 2025 http://money.cnn.com/2010/10/01/auto...dex.htm?hpt=T2
They come out of the woodwork don't they?
I love it when the people making our laws can't differentiate between what is plausible and what is impossible.
They come out of the woodwork don't they?
I love it when the people making our laws can't differentiate between what is plausible and what is impossible.
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The federal government is looking to raise corporate average fuel economy requirements to something between 47 and 62 miles per gallon by 2025, according to documents released today by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and the Environmental Protection Agency.
Currently these requirements, known as CAFE, call for an increase in fuel economy to an average of 34.1 mpg by 2016.
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The requirements proposed Friday are for the next round of fuel economy increases scheduled to begin in 2017.
The government's proposed 2025 goal would reflect annual increase of 3% to 6% per year from 2017 to 2025, according to a Notice of Intent issued by the agencies today.
Not a done deal yet: The proposed fuel economy changes still need to go through various steps before the final rule that automakers must adhere to is announced on July 31, 2012.
The fuel economy figures used to calculate CAFE don't reflect "real world" driving. According to the agencies, real fuel economy figures run about 20% lower than the CAFE numbers.
The cost of vehicles would increase by anywhere from $770 to $3,500 as a result of these goals, the agencies said in a report.
Meanwhile, the average owner could save between $4,900 and $7,400 in fuel costs over the lifetime of a 2025 model year vehicle, even factoring in the added cost of the car itself, the report said.
Hybrids need to pick up the slack: The upper goal of 62 mpg would require significant sales of electric vehicles, according to the agencies' report. Plug-in electric vehicles would have to make up 7% to 14% of all car sales by 2025. Non-plug-in hybrid cars, like today's Toyota Prius, would have to make up 55% to 68% of all car sales. Hybrids currently make up only a small fraction of new car sales.
The lower end of the range, 47 mpg, would require that hybrids make up only 11% to 25% of cars sold and fully electric vehicles would not have to make up any significant portion of the new car market.
Several consumer and environmental groups have been pushing for the government to require CAFE fuel economy of 60 mpg or more by 2025.
"Sixty miles per gallon falls at the high end of the range of future standards contemplated by the Notice of Intent," said Mark Cooper, director of research for the Consumer Federation of America. "We look forward to convincing the agencies that 60 mpg is technically feasible and economically practicable, as well as good for consumers and the nation."
Currently these requirements, known as CAFE, call for an increase in fuel economy to an average of 34.1 mpg by 2016.
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The requirements proposed Friday are for the next round of fuel economy increases scheduled to begin in 2017.
The government's proposed 2025 goal would reflect annual increase of 3% to 6% per year from 2017 to 2025, according to a Notice of Intent issued by the agencies today.
Not a done deal yet: The proposed fuel economy changes still need to go through various steps before the final rule that automakers must adhere to is announced on July 31, 2012.
The fuel economy figures used to calculate CAFE don't reflect "real world" driving. According to the agencies, real fuel economy figures run about 20% lower than the CAFE numbers.
The cost of vehicles would increase by anywhere from $770 to $3,500 as a result of these goals, the agencies said in a report.
Meanwhile, the average owner could save between $4,900 and $7,400 in fuel costs over the lifetime of a 2025 model year vehicle, even factoring in the added cost of the car itself, the report said.
Hybrids need to pick up the slack: The upper goal of 62 mpg would require significant sales of electric vehicles, according to the agencies' report. Plug-in electric vehicles would have to make up 7% to 14% of all car sales by 2025. Non-plug-in hybrid cars, like today's Toyota Prius, would have to make up 55% to 68% of all car sales. Hybrids currently make up only a small fraction of new car sales.
The lower end of the range, 47 mpg, would require that hybrids make up only 11% to 25% of cars sold and fully electric vehicles would not have to make up any significant portion of the new car market.
Several consumer and environmental groups have been pushing for the government to require CAFE fuel economy of 60 mpg or more by 2025.
"Sixty miles per gallon falls at the high end of the range of future standards contemplated by the Notice of Intent," said Mark Cooper, director of research for the Consumer Federation of America. "We look forward to convincing the agencies that 60 mpg is technically feasible and economically practicable, as well as good for consumers and the nation."
10-01-2010, 04:03 PM
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They can want all they want, that doesn't mean it's going to happen.
It is typical of modern capitalism to continue expect to maintain positive gains forever...that's how companies forecast revenue and that's how growth is measured these days. However, the law of diminishing returns, or more appropriately in this case, the laws of physics dictate that everything has a point at which it can no longer be improved.
Fuel mileage is not far from that point, barring a complete fundamental change in how we power automobiles.
More than likely, what will eventually happen is we will phase out oil in favor of alternate energy in the name of environmental conservation, and end up with a far more environmentally destructive source of energy (i.e. electric power). This irrational thinking is typical of human beings. Once we get an idea in our heads, no amount of logic can get it out.
It is typical of modern capitalism to continue expect to maintain positive gains forever...that's how companies forecast revenue and that's how growth is measured these days. However, the law of diminishing returns, or more appropriately in this case, the laws of physics dictate that everything has a point at which it can no longer be improved.
Fuel mileage is not far from that point, barring a complete fundamental change in how we power automobiles.
More than likely, what will eventually happen is we will phase out oil in favor of alternate energy in the name of environmental conservation, and end up with a far more environmentally destructive source of energy (i.e. electric power). This irrational thinking is typical of human beings. Once we get an idea in our heads, no amount of logic can get it out.
10-01-2010, 04:13 PM
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Does that mean that if we keep our cars till then, since the demand for fuel due to the increased fuel economy will drop, we will be able to buy premium 93 fuel for less than $1 per gallon 
10-01-2010, 06:59 PM
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We will all drive jetta TDIs, riding bikes, or walking LOL. Even for a fleet average that seems absurd to me, it would hardly leave room for a full sized V8 anything.
10-01-2010, 08:10 PM
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They can want all they want, that doesn't mean it's going to happen.
It is typical of modern capitalism to continue expect to maintain positive gains forever...that's how companies forecast revenue and that's how growth is measured these days. However, the law of diminishing returns, or more appropriately in this case, the laws of physics dictate that everything has a point at which it can no longer be improved.
Fuel mileage is not far from that point, barring a complete fundamental change in how we power automobiles.
More than likely, what will eventually happen is we will phase out oil in favor of alternate energy in the name of environmental conservation, and end up with a far more environmentally destructive source of energy (i.e. electric power). This irrational thinking is typical of human beings. Once we get an idea in our heads, no amount of logic can get it out.
It is typical of modern capitalism to continue expect to maintain positive gains forever...that's how companies forecast revenue and that's how growth is measured these days. However, the law of diminishing returns, or more appropriately in this case, the laws of physics dictate that everything has a point at which it can no longer be improved.
Fuel mileage is not far from that point, barring a complete fundamental change in how we power automobiles.
More than likely, what will eventually happen is we will phase out oil in favor of alternate energy in the name of environmental conservation, and end up with a far more environmentally destructive source of energy (i.e. electric power). This irrational thinking is typical of human beings. Once we get an idea in our heads, no amount of logic can get it out.
Truthfully, MPG could be improved some by simply reducing weight. But the cost of producing comparable components from lighter materials may or may not be worth it.
Environmental impact is debatable, since production of lighter materials may eventually prove to be as or more harmful than fuel consumption otherwise. And as stated above, alternative energy may also be as or more harmful long term.
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10-01-2010, 08:59 PM
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There is absolutely no reason that an automaker's average can't be 62mpg by 2025. Regular gasoline-powered cars are getting more efficient (direct injection will help quite a bit, and who knows what's on the horizon?), gas/electric hybrids are really catching steam, and plug-in electric cars are becoming more of a feasible alternative for many people. There are hydro and wind power stations going up everywhere, and a couple new nuclear power plants being built as well. So soon electricity will be far less "dirty." Don't settle into apathy, because that is the very idea which caused GM/Ford/Chrysler to go in the ******* a couple decades ago. Companies should ALWAYS be trying new methods and ideas, trying to become better and put out better products.
10-01-2010, 09:17 PM
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How about they just invest some damn money in hydrogen powered cars, which are the end-all of alternative fuels? For those who watch Top Gear, we have already seen what the hydrogen car can do. For those who don't watch this...it explains it perfectly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AUurBnLbJw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AUurBnLbJw
10-01-2010, 09:36 PM
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How about they just invest some damn money in hydrogen powered cars, which are the end-all of alternative fuels? For those who watch Top Gear, we have already seen what the hydrogen car can do. For those who don't watch this...it explains it perfectly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AUurBnLbJw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AUurBnLbJw
10-01-2010, 10:29 PM
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10-01-2010, 10:37 PM
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There's no reason for that not to improve in the next 15 years. If we can put a man on the moon in 8 years, we can figure out a way to make hydrogen production more efficient and install hydrogen pumps in 15.
10-01-2010, 11:17 PM
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That's the thing the video shows, the infrastructure is already in place and nothing needs to change but the fuel that powers the cars. Well, ok so there will be changes in how its stored but its not something so unreasonable that it cant be done in 15 years. Think of how things have changed since 1995. We got rid of that boat anchor LT1. 
but seriously, we have come a long way in terms of fuel efficient engines. Now, as RPM said, we just need to drop some damn weight off the cars and it will only help the situation out even more.
but seriously, we have come a long way in terms of fuel efficient engines. Now, as RPM said, we just need to drop some damn weight off the cars and it will only help the situation out even more.
10-02-2010, 12:10 AM
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There is absolutely no reason that an automaker's average can't be 62mpg by 2025. Regular gasoline-powered cars are getting more efficient (direct injection will help quite a bit, and who knows what's on the horizon?), gas/electric hybrids are really catching steam, and plug-in electric cars are becoming more of a feasible alternative for many people. There are hydro and wind power stations going up everywhere, and a couple new nuclear power plants being built as well. So soon electricity will be far less "dirty." Don't settle into apathy, because that is the very idea which caused GM/Ford/Chrysler to go in the ******* a couple decades ago. Companies should ALWAYS be trying new methods and ideas, trying to become better and put out better products.
Originally Posted by Cole Train
GM's been working on Hydrogen vehicles for years. It's just right now that it takes alot of energy to make the hydrogen that is useable in vehicles. Also there is NO infrastructure for hydrogen fuel pumps either or any money to convert them
10-02-2010, 12:15 AM
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I've always been a fan of the hydrogen powered cars, it seems to be the cleanest most cost effective idea. Battery/electric cars are plain and simple, one of the biggest gimmicks on earth. But hydrogen, as said, it seems like the clearest most realistic possibility. I must have missed that ep. of top gear a while back.
I always love to play devils advocate with them though, water vapor is a green house gas man! It's a pollutant! lol
I always love to play devils advocate with them though, water vapor is a green house gas man! It's a pollutant! lol
10-02-2010, 12:47 AM
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It's a shame that so few people realize that water vapor is a much larger contributor to the greenhouse effect than carbon dioxide. Nothing like taking a step or two backward and trying to claim that we're actually going forward.