Revealed - Toyota FT-86 (Scion FR-S/Subaru BRZ in the US) RWD sports car
12-03-2011, 12:51 PM
#141
I don't think anyone here considers 7000rpm "lofty".
For the Camry vs Civic Si same family comment - HONDA Civic, TOYOTA Camry, not offered by the same company.
The looks arguement could last forever as it's purely subjective, so I won't say either way, but I bet this car appeals to certain people no doubt.
Driving dynamics - the arguements on hp vs weight/handling, etc are all valid based on individual driving preferences. Most here want torque, throttle response, then handling/low weight. However, this is a small community of car owners compared to the general public, and the general public rarely cross-shops 1/4 mile ETs when buying a car....
They go into a showroom, take the saleperson's pitch for a test drive, love or hate the car and make their decision from there.
My problem with this type of car is the same as say my issue with the RX-8. It gives the impression that it's fast when driving/riding in this small type of car....then every uneducated kid who gets their hands on one, goes out street racing every car he can find - his/her excuse for losing - "Yeah, but my car handles better and is way lighter than your pig," which is sometimes true, but remember that handling prowess doesn't always go to the lightest car. It is true that a car can have more weight, more power, and BETTER handling.
I'm not trying to say this car is garbage, I don't mind it at all. It's not for me, but I do think they will sell to a certain market. (I will be surprised to see it hit Miata sales figures, but who knows).
For the Camry vs Civic Si same family comment - HONDA Civic, TOYOTA Camry, not offered by the same company.
The looks arguement could last forever as it's purely subjective, so I won't say either way, but I bet this car appeals to certain people no doubt.
Driving dynamics - the arguements on hp vs weight/handling, etc are all valid based on individual driving preferences. Most here want torque, throttle response, then handling/low weight. However, this is a small community of car owners compared to the general public, and the general public rarely cross-shops 1/4 mile ETs when buying a car....
They go into a showroom, take the saleperson's pitch for a test drive, love or hate the car and make their decision from there.
My problem with this type of car is the same as say my issue with the RX-8. It gives the impression that it's fast when driving/riding in this small type of car....then every uneducated kid who gets their hands on one, goes out street racing every car he can find - his/her excuse for losing - "Yeah, but my car handles better and is way lighter than your pig," which is sometimes true, but remember that handling prowess doesn't always go to the lightest car. It is true that a car can have more weight, more power, and BETTER handling.
I'm not trying to say this car is garbage, I don't mind it at all. It's not for me, but I do think they will sell to a certain market. (I will be surprised to see it hit Miata sales figures, but who knows).
12-03-2011, 12:59 PM
#142
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Some people want a great all around performance car without breaking the bank too much, and being reliable. Those people will buy a C5 Z06.
Some people want a light weight, bare bones, all out drivers cars. Those people will buy an Elise.
Some people want to be trendy, brand loyal and get a warranty. Those people will buy the FT86/BRZ.
Good god, the horse is long dead, mangled, limbs coming off and everything. We get it, you think this car will be fun despite its lack power, just drop it already. Will the car be fun pushing the limits on the track? Very likely! Will the car be fun driving around on the street? Highly doubt it, atleast not for some. When you are used to endless torque at the touch of the throttle, beautiful sounds coming out of the exhaust (even at idle), and just that overall muscle feel you will likely be bored driving this on the street.
Ive driven a couple miata's before, I know the they are great fun pushing 11/10ths on the track because of their size/weight, nimbleness and they just go where you point them, easy to control etc. But on the street(not a curvy back road), good lord they are boring. Gutless, slow, sound terrible, and not enjoyable until you push them hard.
In contrast just cruising on the street in something like a C5 Z06, hearing that gorgeous exhaust rumble, and feeling all that torque, without pushing the car at all, is something completely different, fun - and you still get that very tight, taught feel.
Some people want a light weight, bare bones, all out drivers cars. Those people will buy an Elise.
Some people want to be trendy, brand loyal and get a warranty. Those people will buy the FT86/BRZ.
Ive driven a couple miata's before, I know the they are great fun pushing 11/10ths on the track because of their size/weight, nimbleness and they just go where you point them, easy to control etc. But on the street(not a curvy back road), good lord they are boring. Gutless, slow, sound terrible, and not enjoyable until you push them hard.
In contrast just cruising on the street in something like a C5 Z06, hearing that gorgeous exhaust rumble, and feeling all that torque, without pushing the car at all, is something completely different, fun - and you still get that very tight, taught feel.
12-03-2011, 01:41 PM
#143
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Looking at cars in the same price range (under $30k) that have been out for a few years already this car is going to get beat everywhere; so even comparing it to brand new cars shows that it sucks performance-wise. I just don't understand why they build such a great platform and then kill any chance it had at competing by not giving it any power.
12-03-2011, 01:50 PM
#144
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Toyota should stop being retarded and catch up with nissan and and remake the supra and acura should drop the nsx bomb on us already.. I would like to see a worthy import battle again. instead of lame evo vs sti, that is old already.
12-03-2011, 01:51 PM
#145
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Some people want a great all around performance car without breaking the bank too much, and being reliable. Those people will buy a C5 Z06.
Some people want a light weight, bare bones, all out drivers cars. Those people will buy an Elise.
Some people want to be trendy, brand loyal and get a warranty. Those people will buy the FT86/BRZ.
Some people want a light weight, bare bones, all out drivers cars. Those people will buy an Elise.
Some people want to be trendy, brand loyal and get a warranty. Those people will buy the FT86/BRZ.
Good god, the horse is long dead, mangled, limbs coming off and everything. We get it, you think this car will be fun despite its lack power, just drop it already. Will the car be fun pushing the limits on the track? Very likely! Will the car be fun driving around on the street? Highly doubt it, atleast not for some. When you are used to endless torque at the touch of the throttle, beautiful sounds coming out of the exhaust (even at idle), and just that overall muscle feel you will likely be bored driving this on the street.
Ive driven a couple miata's before, I know the they are great fun pushing 11/10ths on the track because of their size/weight, nimbleness and they just go where you point them, easy to control etc. But on the street(not a curvy back road), good lord they are boring. Gutless, slow, sound terrible, and not enjoyable until you push them hard.
In contrast just cruising on the street in something like a C5 Z06, hearing that gorgeous exhaust rumble, and feeling all that torque, without pushing the car at all, is something completely different, fun - and you still get that very tight, taught feel.
Ive driven a couple miata's before, I know the they are great fun pushing 11/10ths on the track because of their size/weight, nimbleness and they just go where you point them, easy to control etc. But on the street(not a curvy back road), good lord they are boring. Gutless, slow, sound terrible, and not enjoyable until you push them hard.
In contrast just cruising on the street in something like a C5 Z06, hearing that gorgeous exhaust rumble, and feeling all that torque, without pushing the car at all, is something completely different, fun - and you still get that very tight, taught feel.
Bottom line the car wasn't aimed at most of the people here who are looking for price for performance and a crapload of power, its for the guys looking for a car similar to the Miata, thats a hardtop etc.
As one person said above though which I fear is that some ricer will take the car and act like its the fastest car on the road just because its a light car.
12-03-2011, 02:07 PM
#146
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So you must think the V6 Camaro REALLY sucks, gocart. Runs 14s AND weighs a thousand pounds more than this
Last edited by Irunelevens; 12-03-2011 at 02:12 PM.
12-03-2011, 02:35 PM
#147
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^Yes I do, but even with an extra 1000lbs of weight I would still put my money on that car beating this one everywhere.
Where did I say anything about a used car? I'm talking brand new cars that have been out for a few years already that beat this car everywhere with an MSRP under $30k. The V6 and V8 Mustang, Genisis V6, V6 Camaro (and possibly the V8 depending on where they price this car), just to list a few.
That is stupid logic because, because comparing a brand new car to a car a few years old, I can get a used C6 Z06 for a lower price than a brand new GT500 and even to an extent less than a brand new fully loaded Gen 5 Camaro or CTS-V. Also we don't know what its gonna do exactly performance wise. They state 197hp and 2689lbs thats all we know. Just because a 2012 Camry can do something performance wise doesn't mean its going to be a better performer all around.
12-03-2011, 02:39 PM
#148
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Wait so you spend how much money buying a brand new car and then dump a bunch of money into it just to make it as fast as what... a stock LS1 from the late 90s?
Forgive my bench racing but I imagine this car stock should be good for 14s. Getting this car into the 12s isn't going to be a piece of cake. It already weighs nothing so I doubt there's much to be gained with weight reduction, it's not already boosted so a turbo setup would have to be fabricated, etc.
For the money I'd rather buy a clean C5 Z06 that'll whoop this little ricer at the dragstrip AND around a circuit.
Forgive my bench racing but I imagine this car stock should be good for 14s. Getting this car into the 12s isn't going to be a piece of cake. It already weighs nothing so I doubt there's much to be gained with weight reduction, it's not already boosted so a turbo setup would have to be fabricated, etc.
For the money I'd rather buy a clean C5 Z06 that'll whoop this little ricer at the dragstrip AND around a circuit.
12-03-2011, 05:02 PM
#150
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Some people want a great all around performance car without breaking the bank too much, and being reliable. Those people will buy a C5 Z06.
Some people want a light weight, bare bones, all out drivers cars. Those people will buy an Elise.
Some people want to be trendy, brand loyal and get a warranty. Those people will buy the FT86/BRZ.
Good god, the horse is long dead, mangled, limbs coming off and everything. We get it, you think this car will be fun despite its lack power, just drop it already. Will the car be fun pushing the limits on the track? Very likely! Will the car be fun driving around on the street? Highly doubt it, atleast not for some. When you are used to endless torque at the touch of the throttle, beautiful sounds coming out of the exhaust (even at idle), and just that overall muscle feel you will likely be bored driving this on the street.
Ive driven a couple miata's before, I know the they are great fun pushing 11/10ths on the track because of their size/weight, nimbleness and they just go where you point them, easy to control etc. But on the street(not a curvy back road), good lord they are boring. Gutless, slow, sound terrible, and not enjoyable until you push them hard.
In contrast just cruising on the street in something like a C5 Z06, hearing that gorgeous exhaust rumble, and feeling all that torque, without pushing the car at all, is something completely different, fun - and you still get that very tight, taught feel.
Some people want a light weight, bare bones, all out drivers cars. Those people will buy an Elise.
Some people want to be trendy, brand loyal and get a warranty. Those people will buy the FT86/BRZ.
Good god, the horse is long dead, mangled, limbs coming off and everything. We get it, you think this car will be fun despite its lack power, just drop it already. Will the car be fun pushing the limits on the track? Very likely! Will the car be fun driving around on the street? Highly doubt it, atleast not for some. When you are used to endless torque at the touch of the throttle, beautiful sounds coming out of the exhaust (even at idle), and just that overall muscle feel you will likely be bored driving this on the street.
Ive driven a couple miata's before, I know the they are great fun pushing 11/10ths on the track because of their size/weight, nimbleness and they just go where you point them, easy to control etc. But on the street(not a curvy back road), good lord they are boring. Gutless, slow, sound terrible, and not enjoyable until you push them hard.
In contrast just cruising on the street in something like a C5 Z06, hearing that gorgeous exhaust rumble, and feeling all that torque, without pushing the car at all, is something completely different, fun - and you still get that very tight, taught feel.
12-03-2011, 06:15 PM
#151
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Who said the person buying the car is going to mod it. Also as a C5 Z06 owner I can tell you there are people who aren't overly concerned with going fast and actually want a car that doesn't have outdated pop up headlights or a sub par interior. Lets not forget to mention the record of that used Z06 you buy due to people like me and some others who possibly will return their cars to stock when they sell them after putting a crap load of mods in the car, making it a gamble with the record of the used Z06.
Like I said before comparing an old car to a new car is retarded at best.
12-03-2011, 06:41 PM
#152
Who said the person buying the car is going to mod it. Also as a C5 Z06 owner I can tell you there are people who aren't overly concerned with going fast and actually want a car that doesn't have outdated pop up headlights or a sub par interior. Lets not forget to mention the record of that used Z06 you buy due to people like me and some others who possibly will return their cars to stock when they sell them after putting a crap load of mods in the car, making it a gamble with the record of the used Z06.
And considering that you can get a C6 these days for under $30k, with its updated styling and better interior, walking away from a clean used C6 (which are mostly owned by 60 year old men who drive them at 40 mph) or C5 Z06 for a slow, ugly Toyota, now that's retarded.
12-03-2011, 08:01 PM
#153
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Wait so you spend how much money buying a brand new car and then dump a bunch of money into it just to make it as fast as what... a stock LS1 from the late 90s?
Forgive my bench racing but I imagine this car stock should be good for 14s. Getting this car into the 12s isn't going to be a piece of cake. It already weighs nothing so I doubt there's much to be gained with weight reduction, it's not already boosted so a turbo setup would have to be fabricated, etc.
For the money I'd rather buy a clean C5 Z06 that'll whoop this little ricer at the dragstrip AND around a circuit.
Forgive my bench racing but I imagine this car stock should be good for 14s. Getting this car into the 12s isn't going to be a piece of cake. It already weighs nothing so I doubt there's much to be gained with weight reduction, it's not already boosted so a turbo setup would have to be fabricated, etc.
For the money I'd rather buy a clean C5 Z06 that'll whoop this little ricer at the dragstrip AND around a circuit.
Cliffs: It has a great setup and huge potential in my opinion. Fix the weak engine with some boost and a tune that takes advantage of the DI, plus internals.. and it will compare to a C5 Z06. On the track, street, or the strip. Especially once it's as old as the Z06 is now.
12-03-2011, 08:20 PM
#154
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Civic Si vs camry, is not even the same class. Civic si would be against corolla, and the camry would have to go against the accord or TL, Honda owns toyota (Excluding SUpra and yes LFA but that is 400k price tag( which is not worth that.) Anyways, subaru and toyota combining to create a car, and this is what they come up with I am dissappointed. Miatas are dead, they should not even make those cars anymore I never see them.
12-03-2011, 09:15 PM
#159
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It's a completely different type of car, it's not meant to be compared to old 10 year old Corvette's and F-Body's. Like I said before, it's a new, inexpensive, responsive, fun, small car, similar to a Miata or an S2000. It is not meant for being super competitive, that kind of thing is for a different market of buyers and this car does not fall into that category. The hillbilly's in here can't seem to comprehend that though...
12-03-2011, 09:17 PM
#160
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It's a completely different type of car, it's not meant to be compared to old 10 year old Corvette's and F-Body's. Like I said before, it's a new, inexpensive, responsive, fun, small car, similar to a Miata or an S2000. It is not meant for being super competitive, that kind of thing is for a different market of buyers and this car does not fall into that category. The hillbilly's in here can't seem to comprehend that though...