raven154

iTrader: (14)

First off, this is my car. 2004 CTS-V LS6

Has anybody tried the oval or 90mm LS6 intake TPiS is selling? How are they mounting the new neck and has anybody had any durability issues with it?

Currently my car is stock. Hopefully headers and 3" are in the works as well as a tune. I have a Volant CAI. I was wondering what kind of gains could be seen running this or would it be better to buy the FAST 90mm. This car is still fairly new to me in terms of modifying as it is my first GM vehicle and first LSX motor I have had the pleasure of playing with.

Eventually ported stock LS6 heads or better will go in as well as a cam. Would I be better off over buying now and have a better match for my mods later? Or will the stock intake and maybe a ported stock TB handle a mild cam and head work?

JonCR96Z

iTrader: (33)

http://www.tpis.com/plog/index.php?o...Id=14&blogId=1

I can't remember ever hearing of anyone having the TPiS modified LS6 intake, so I can't say on that one. I have the Fast 90, and it gives pretty good gains. With FAST90 electric waterpump, homemade cold air kit, and dyno tuned I made 372rwhp 363 rwtq. I didn't have a stock dyno to compare it to, but most 04 CTSVs are putting down somewhere in the 330s.
Heres the link to my dyno results

04ctsvfl

iTrader: (4)

jon are those #'s with your new ram air, or with your old ffv style intake.

raven154

iTrader: (14)

Thank you for the article on the intakes. Its seems the stock intake would be able to handle those mods fairly easy only giving up roughly 15 or so hp. Not saying I wont eventulay change it, just wanting to know if it was going to be a major factor. When I do the heads I will probably go with the fast 90. I dont think I would be moving enough air untill I got the heads to justify the 90 anyway. I was looking at the electric water pumps too. What is the typical life span of a high quality electric pump?

Anybody with the TPiS modified intake feel free to chime in on the quality and durability as well as the looks. I really dont want something the looks like it was glued together or something. I like the stock apperance, mainly cause it really is but with the bigger neck.

JonCR96Z

iTrader: (33)

That was with the old setup. 3.5 inch tubing, stock air box, and K&N filter.

I think that the Meizere EWP is rated for 3000+ hours. So if I drove an hour a day , it would last over 8 years. In reality I drive it 1-2 hours a week, so I shouldn't have anything to worry about there. If you're considering this, I have to say that it doesn't fit in a CTSV without some heartache. You have to cut the fan shroud quite a bit to get it to clear, and you have to pull the radiator out to get the shroud back in because of the lack of room. Here's a link where I posted some pics of the waterpump.

Jon

Rey Kirkman

I have about 15K miles on a TPIS-modified LS6 with an LS-2 ported throttle body. Absolutely no issues with it. Driveability is stock. Power increase is very good. I also have a Lingenfelter filter box and home-engineered 4" intake.
As for looks, it looks bone stock. TPIS cuts off the stock throttle body mount and glues the LS2 throttle body mount. They use a special glue and the glue seam is amost not detectable.
The FAST intake has become, more or less, the "Gold Standard" for aftermarket intakes, but it has issues itself. The modified LS6 manifold will match the FAST at most rpm levels with a stock displacement motor. FAST works best with big motors. FAST is eye candy, and that is always worth something. FAST is expensive, and the TPIS alternative is a fraction of the cost.
I have never dynoed my Caddy, but TPIS's '04 with headers, open air filter, modified LS6 intake, TPIS 90mm throttle body, and TPIS tune has done 385 RWHP.

raven154

iTrader: (14)

Thanks Rey! Just what I was looking for!

JonCR96Z

iTrader: (33)

What do you mean by open air filter. I take it that it means just a filter on the front of the TB. Which will give better results on a dyno with the hood open than a cold air kit on the street with the hood closed.

If that is the case, then the fact that they would even do that just says to me that they're looking to pump up results.

Otherwise those numbers and my numbers would be pretty close if we had the same mods other than the intake (headers, ewp). Which would say that for the money, TPiS is an good alternative to the FAST for a basically stock engine.

I would still go for the FAST, just because it definitely has more potential with a combo that needs more air. It also can be ported for even better results.

Jon

AAIIIC

iTrader: (19)

Because I like pretty pictures and graphs, I transferred the numbers from the article into Excel and made some graphs. I messed around with the torque scale (on the right of each graph) so that the peak torques didn't all fall right on top of the HP curves - it just makes it less cluttered looking. Note that the TQ scale for the first curve is different than the other two, and I'm too lazy to go back and change it to make them all look the same.

The first one is a comparison of the intakes they tested with the 75mm throttle body:


Then we have the intakes with the bigger TBs. (They didn't specifically say how big the "ported TB" on the Weiand was, but I'm sure it was quite a bit less than 90mm based on other ported TBs I've seen.)

Note that I didn't include the 75x90mm oval TB, since the curves for it were basically right on top of the LS6 w/90mm round T curves.

And then we have a comparison of best (FAST w/90mm GM TB) vs worst (LS1 w/75mm TB).




Honestly, I'm underwhelmed by the differences as there's really nothing to be had under 5000rpm. I'd be interested to see how that would change with ported heads and a more aggressive cam.

raven154

iTrader: (14)

Very nice work!

2c5s

iTrader: (11)

Rey,

Stop being the TPIS poster boy. Step up and do some testing on your own before hawking someone else's product. The fact is, the LS6 intake has been around awhile, as has the FAST 90. There is a reason why almost every cathedral port headed LS engine making any real power runs a FAST 90. It's not so much tb size, but the sheer volume or capacity of air the FAST 90 has over the g.m. pieces.

Why did'nt you do a before and after......

04ctsvfl

iTrader: (4)

yes, but smaller motors can take only so much air, I agree 2c on bigger cubes say 383+ your right, or even a big cam 346, but a stock cam ls6 cant take advantage of the fast imo. but its all gravy

93TAWicked1

iTrader: (28)

Hmm my 90mm oval tpis intake put down 473rwhp on a mustang dyno through a 9 inch in a 388 all bore car with a small cam. I'm sure a PORTED Fast would do better but how much, I don't know I'm driving myself crazy thinking about it though.

TPIS is a great company been in business for quite a while treating people right.

trukk

iTrader: (1)

Well,

I've taken the plunge on upgrading intake/tb.

My current setup is stock ls6 + katech ported 78mm GM TB. With my other boltons, I'm currently at 370 rwhp (headers, cat back hi flow cats, CAI, tune) on a Mustang dyno SAE corrected.

I have my Fast 90, and purchased Chris' Nick Williams 90 from him., when he swaped back to stock to get rid of his V. Next week I'm sending the Fast to be ported by Tony Mamo. It will probably be about 2 months before I get it back, and installed.

I'll get a before/after dyno on the same day with the new setup.

Keep in mind this will be on a completely stock internals 346. Hopefully this will put to rest the the "is it worth it or not" debate for a stock cubed car. I am sure hoping that I'm feeling after this rather than . This is going to end up costing about as much as my headers ($2k-ish said and done).

Any guestimates on what I'll pick up? I'm hoping not to loose to much down low, and end up with around a 15 rwhp gain ( ). Anything more than that will be pure gravy, considering I still have stock heads/cam. I'll probabaly do cam sometime next, year, and heads further down the line. I epect that this upfront work I'm doing now will pay bigger dividends later.


Interested in your thoughts.

-Chris

Tony Mamo @ AFR

iTrader: (13)

The FAST 90 (ported) will have a slight advantage in the midrange and a much stronger top end charge. Some of the main attributes of the FAST (and the reason it works better) are plenum volume, runner volume and length, better radiused entry etc. NONE of this is addressed with a modified LS6 unless there is MAJOR surgery done inside the manifold which isnt very easy to do. You could hang a 120mm TB on the front of a stock LS6 intake and due to all the reasons above the 90mm FAST will make more power. Its not about the size of the entrance....thats not the restiction. Similar to taking a stock head and opening up the entrance (gasket matching), a common practice in yesterday's 23' engines. Looked great when you were done but did jack to the power curve. Why?....because an inch further down the port it necked down to 75% of that original cross section anyway in the pushrod pinch, plus the short turn and valvejob sucked where the same time invested there would have yielded big results if the guy weilding the grinder knew what he was doing. You have to address the real restriction and short comings of the piece in question.

Also, if I read one more time a FAST only works on a stroker or a radical 346 I think Im going to throw up. Seems everyone that reads these FAST threads must lose their memory regarding the countless other posts myself and others have made refuting that exact concept with real world results (one example of the many is my former 224 cammed 346 that put up 475-480 RWHP...knock that package down to 450 or so with an LS6....OUCH).

Guys....were moving air here....not atomizing fuel. A better intake is an intake that allows the head to flow more air net to the cylinder....it's the manifold which represents the least restriction to the cylinder heads and allows the intake port to flow closer to its "flowbench potential" (like it would with a radius plate in front of it....zero restriction) . The better the heads the better the manifold you will need to maximize them but I have helped guys with STOCK long blocks with LS1 cams and have seen 12-20 HP (peak and after peak) simply because the little bit of extra air the manifold helped with made it net to the back tire. Granted the same engine would have seen 20-25 peak with a good H/C package but my point is the FAST is still the best game in town and is worth power in EVERY application. The more efficient the combination is at processing air, the better the gains from the install due to reducing some of the intake port restriction (intake port flows more air net with a better intake manifold design).

Essentially, the FAST or ANY manifold that allows a port to flow more air fools the engine into thinking you just bolted on a better cyinder head. There is more NET flow to the cylinders on the intake side and if you have a decent exhaust to take advantage of it you will push the dyno needle a little higher when the smoke clears.

I hope this clears some things up....again...LOL

Tony M.

PS....Some of my comments concerning a better intake just making less of a restriction are taking some liberties. If you radically alter the runner length you will kill the bottom of the curve and help the top. My commenst above are somewhat general in nature but assume similar runner lengths and overall geometry or layout of the runners. Comparing a FAST, an LS6, an LS1, etc. all fit into that "similar" layout category.

93TAWicked1

iTrader: (28)

Tony it really doesn't....if I was buying a new intake and TB I think the FAST would be the way to go with my setup. BUT I already have the TPIS. So here is my dilemma should I spend another 1300 bucks and get the ported FAST setup on a street car. At 5000 to 6700 rpm in a 454 LSX with OK heads and a 252/256 595/595 112 cam is the difference going to be?

30rwhp would be nothing to laugh at and certainly worth the plunge...15rwhp I don't know I think the car will be crazy enough as it is...what do you think based on the graph above figure 10rwhp more for a ported LSX its right at 15....I don't think anyone is debating the ported fast will make more power than the TPIS 90/90 but to quote you on the right setup even the 78mm FAST is a nice peice.

Tony Mamo @ AFR

iTrader: (13)

Not sure what "really doesnt" mean....I assume you mean what I wrote doesn't really clear things up possibly.

Anyway....what's it worth....if I had to guess a ported FAST is worth 15 peak over a modified LS6 (which is 8-10 or so stronger than a stock LS6) with most of those gains seen in the 6000+ range. Considering I shifted my 224 cammed hyd. roller 346 at 7K there is certainly quite a bit of time to enjoy the extra power.

Is it alot more money for the ported FAST?....unfortunately yes. Is it worth it? Depends on each individuals wallet and how he or she values more power or that extra edge.

The TPIS 90 is a nice piece and honestly represents some good value purely looking at dollars spent and ponies gained, but if your looking to maximize the peak numbers of your combination (which always cost more money) and have the set-up to turn the necessary RPM to take the most advantage of it, the design attributes of the FAST (or better yet a properly modified FAST) will lay down the number every time.

Tony

PS....And a ported FAST 78 is also effective ($$$ wise as well) but ultimately gives up 5 RWHP to its larger 90mm brother. However the extra throttle response and huge SOTP grin from the 90mm TB wouldnt be there....I would personally miss that alot more than the extra 5 ponies which of course is nothing to sneeze at percentagewise.

04ctsvfl

iTrader: (4)

on a 454 do to the large cubes, and desire for MAAAAAAD air lol, much improvement will be seen with the fast....I would even maybe suggest doing the larger sized proffesional products intake...I believe its 105mm? Tony will be better able to determine that....but on a 454, you need lots of air to make the desired power and "goal" for all the work youve done

93TAWicked1

iTrader: (28)

Thanks Tony that was the direct comparison I was looking for. Actually the problem is I already have the TPIS setup, so with everything else I need to dial in its hard to justify more $$ right now. My plan was to sit back and see how the sheet metal intakes held up to street duty....