LQ4 into a 3rd Gen/1972 Nova
12-19-2012, 11:10 AM
#1141
Drednot... Thanks, it took a lot of effort to get "the stance i've been imagining since day one".. but if I've learned one thing, it's do it right the first time no matter the effort. And I wasn't originally planning on documenting the mini-tub, because I figured it's such a common thing there must be a couple threads out there already, however upon searching it's either for a Camaro or it's a pretty minimal write up for a Nova. I figure if I'm doing it, might as well take a bunch of pics and document it like everything else I've done.. maybe I can end up being helpful to someone on here! 
Steve68... I used hatch belts, but I believe they're the same for coupes. I'd imagine the 'vert belts would have a much shorter belt length since the shoulder point needs to be lower, and that might not work out so well for where my shoulder point bracket places the shoulder hinge..
Steve68... I used hatch belts, but I believe they're the same for coupes. I'd imagine the 'vert belts would have a much shorter belt length since the shoulder point needs to be lower, and that might not work out so well for where my shoulder point bracket places the shoulder hinge..
12-19-2012, 12:37 PM
#1142
here's a 3rd gen DSE mini-tub thread.
ps - I used neon belts in mine. No problems, though they take a little more modification, and you have to put the anchor nut in the inside of the plate (as opposed to joe, who put his on the outside) due to the reel bracket being straight.
clint, I disagree - peep tom's (DGGM WX3) build on pt. he did some SERIOUS work on his suspension and front subframe.
ps - I used neon belts in mine. No problems, though they take a little more modification, and you have to put the anchor nut in the inside of the plate (as opposed to joe, who put his on the outside) due to the reel bracket being straight.
clint, I disagree - peep tom's (DGGM WX3) build on pt. he did some SERIOUS work on his suspension and front subframe.
12-19-2012, 03:10 PM
#1144
clint, I disagree - peep tom's (DGGM WX3) build on pt. he did some SERIOUS work on his suspension and front subframe.
Last edited by -TheBandit-; 12-19-2012 at 03:18 PM.
12-20-2012, 09:43 AM
#1146
Clint, I just moved this past weekend (3-car garage FTW), so I know the feeling. Yesterday I finished my neon console install instead of fixing the pool-area lights like I promised the fiancee. I've still got a couple other projects I'm working on when I get time, though I'm happy to report I've driven her to work every day this week, and have loved every second of it.
12-20-2012, 09:44 AM
#1147
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Drednot... Thanks, it took a lot of effort to get "the stance i've been imagining since day one".. but if I've learned one thing, it's do it right the first time no matter the effort. And I wasn't originally planning on documenting the mini-tub, because I figured it's such a common thing there must be a couple threads out there already, however upon searching it's either for a Camaro or it's a pretty minimal write up for a Nova. I figure if I'm doing it, might as well take a bunch of pics and document it like everything else I've done.. maybe I can end up being helpful to someone on here!
12-20-2012, 12:17 PM
#1148
I am happy with the G-link so far. For me, out of all the 4-link systems out there, the top two (from a behind-the-computer-screen analysis) would be the DSE Quadralink and the CA G-link. Reasons being:
DSE: maintains the NVH ride compliance of rubber bushings without the torsional binding under roll due to DSE's patented Swivel-link (from talking at SEMA, "swivel link" is actually just a "top hat" bushing with the linear bushing part for link twist, and brim of the top hat for handling axial load in the link under brake/accel). Also, a fair bit of sheetmetal trimming and likely seat rear seat structure trimming is needed to install the upper link pockets on the floorpan.
Alston: The G-Link has spherical link pivots, but the nice thing is they're rebuildable and greasable. I believe they have nylon races which could likely be replaced if need be, and being rebuildable is nice as grease will over time attract road grime, etc. The G-link has a great degree of freedom for roll, which would make tuning a rear sway bar nicer, as well as better bump compliance under hard cornering/roll. Nice to have multiple link mountnig holes for tuning anti-squat, as well as length-adjustable links both upper & lower for adjusting wheel position and pinion angle. Major downside of this system is the upper link pockets aren't tied together to spread the loads between framerails, but I fixed that.
Other popular systems..
CA G-Bar/Ridetech 4-link: Simple, very cost-effective system for what you get. Adjustable ride height with adjustable upper links but non-adjustable lower links. Rubber bushings everywhere (at least on the cheapest setup, heim joints are an optional upgrade) so some bind will occur. Upper link pockets are reinforced side-to-side which is nice, as well as it being a true bolt-in system.
Speedtech torque arm: Good price, added weight of the torque arm (at least in the 1st generation of the Speedtech torque arm without milled windows in side plates on the arm), however they seem to have a bushing'd link setup called the ArticuLink, similar to the DSE's Swivel Link.
BMR torque arm: See above for Speedtech, minus the articulating link.
Total Cost Involved: Another torque arm, fairly inexpensive. Claims to be 100% bolt in but from looking at the pictures, the forward lower link pockets appear to be pretty bulky, not sure how they'd fit around the stock framerails as bolt-on only. I have no opinion on ride height or install as I didn't look into it much at all.
Heidt's 4-link: not sure how popular, but another bolt-in 4-link. Have no opinion on this one either as I never really considered it seriously.
Lateral Dynamics 3-link: Not sure if this is still produced, but was a very nice, well-engineered system, unfortunately (but unavoidably) the upper link's forward pocket took up a lot of area in the rear seat so you have to go either sans seat or make a custom 2-bucket setup.
Generic Art Morrison 3-link or 4-link: These are both real nice pieces, but only for those that are seriously chopping up their car and removing a ton of sheetmetal, and love the braindamage of doing so much fabrication. Also has the same style of link pivots as the G-link, but developed by Currie and named "Johnny Joint".. essentially a bigger version of the rebuildable spherical rod end from Alston.
One side comment.. I'm still wary of systems that use a rubber bushing in the link, but also that the link is adjustable and so is threaded with a jam nut. I fear over time the roll in the system and the relatively-not-super-forgiving rubber bushings will rotate the bushing housing end of the link and work the jam nut loose.
I should say that roll for all these applications should normally be 1-2degrees or less if the car is stiffly sprung and has good sway bars, maybe 3degrees max under extreme cornering. So my talk of roll bind might be a bit **** sounding, but then again if a rear susp system can be freer-moving in any respect, why not..
DSE: maintains the NVH ride compliance of rubber bushings without the torsional binding under roll due to DSE's patented Swivel-link (from talking at SEMA, "swivel link" is actually just a "top hat" bushing with the linear bushing part for link twist, and brim of the top hat for handling axial load in the link under brake/accel). Also, a fair bit of sheetmetal trimming and likely seat rear seat structure trimming is needed to install the upper link pockets on the floorpan.
Alston: The G-Link has spherical link pivots, but the nice thing is they're rebuildable and greasable. I believe they have nylon races which could likely be replaced if need be, and being rebuildable is nice as grease will over time attract road grime, etc. The G-link has a great degree of freedom for roll, which would make tuning a rear sway bar nicer, as well as better bump compliance under hard cornering/roll. Nice to have multiple link mountnig holes for tuning anti-squat, as well as length-adjustable links both upper & lower for adjusting wheel position and pinion angle. Major downside of this system is the upper link pockets aren't tied together to spread the loads between framerails, but I fixed that.
Other popular systems..
CA G-Bar/Ridetech 4-link: Simple, very cost-effective system for what you get. Adjustable ride height with adjustable upper links but non-adjustable lower links. Rubber bushings everywhere (at least on the cheapest setup, heim joints are an optional upgrade) so some bind will occur. Upper link pockets are reinforced side-to-side which is nice, as well as it being a true bolt-in system.
Speedtech torque arm: Good price, added weight of the torque arm (at least in the 1st generation of the Speedtech torque arm without milled windows in side plates on the arm), however they seem to have a bushing'd link setup called the ArticuLink, similar to the DSE's Swivel Link.
BMR torque arm: See above for Speedtech, minus the articulating link.
Total Cost Involved: Another torque arm, fairly inexpensive. Claims to be 100% bolt in but from looking at the pictures, the forward lower link pockets appear to be pretty bulky, not sure how they'd fit around the stock framerails as bolt-on only. I have no opinion on ride height or install as I didn't look into it much at all.
Heidt's 4-link: not sure how popular, but another bolt-in 4-link. Have no opinion on this one either as I never really considered it seriously.
Lateral Dynamics 3-link: Not sure if this is still produced, but was a very nice, well-engineered system, unfortunately (but unavoidably) the upper link's forward pocket took up a lot of area in the rear seat so you have to go either sans seat or make a custom 2-bucket setup.
Generic Art Morrison 3-link or 4-link: These are both real nice pieces, but only for those that are seriously chopping up their car and removing a ton of sheetmetal, and love the braindamage of doing so much fabrication. Also has the same style of link pivots as the G-link, but developed by Currie and named "Johnny Joint".. essentially a bigger version of the rebuildable spherical rod end from Alston.
One side comment.. I'm still wary of systems that use a rubber bushing in the link, but also that the link is adjustable and so is threaded with a jam nut. I fear over time the roll in the system and the relatively-not-super-forgiving rubber bushings will rotate the bushing housing end of the link and work the jam nut loose.
I should say that roll for all these applications should normally be 1-2degrees or less if the car is stiffly sprung and has good sway bars, maybe 3degrees max under extreme cornering. So my talk of roll bind might be a bit **** sounding, but then again if a rear susp system can be freer-moving in any respect, why not..
Last edited by frojoe; 12-27-2012 at 01:56 PM.
12-20-2012, 12:28 PM
#1149
Geez.. all that and I didn't even fully answer Drednot's question... To add to the G-link comments.. all the effort was worth it to me to get that ride height I wanted without compromising bump travel by going to shorter & stiffer springs, or by a shorter shock, or by lowering the lower shock mounting brackets (and making them dangerously close to the ground and road obstacles IMO).
If I were to do it all over again, and if I had known the effort involved to get the ride height I wanted, I probably would've gone with the DSE for the rubber bushings, as well as the fact that I ended up cutting my trunk floorpan out between the framerails anyways.
That being said, I don't regret getting the G-link and modifying it at all.. it was one of those things that I just couldn't really know for sure until I had the thing purchased, unwrapped, mockup-installed, and slammed the wheels/axle in full compression.
If I were to do it all over again, and if I had known the effort involved to get the ride height I wanted, I probably would've gone with the DSE for the rubber bushings, as well as the fact that I ended up cutting my trunk floorpan out between the framerails anyways.
That being said, I don't regret getting the G-link and modifying it at all.. it was one of those things that I just couldn't really know for sure until I had the thing purchased, unwrapped, mockup-installed, and slammed the wheels/axle in full compression.
12-20-2012, 12:28 PM
#1150
One side comment.. I'm still wary of systems that use a rubber bushing in the link, but also that the link is adjustable and so is threaded with a jam nut. I fear over time the roll in the system and the relatively-not-super-forgiving rubber bushings will rotate the bushing housing end of the link and work the jam nut loose.
I should say that roll for all these applications should normally be 1-2degrees or less if the car is stiffly sprung and has good sway bars, maybe 3degrees max under extreme cornering. So my talk of roll bind might be a bit **** sounding, but then again if a rear susp system can be freer-moving in any respect, why not..
I should say that roll for all these applications should normally be 1-2degrees or less if the car is stiffly sprung and has good sway bars, maybe 3degrees max under extreme cornering. So my talk of roll bind might be a bit **** sounding, but then again if a rear susp system can be freer-moving in any respect, why not..
Second, a question regarding your fear of the jam nut coming loose. If one end of the link has a rubber bushing, and the other a johnny-joint style link, would it even matter if the jam nut came loose. It couldn't go anywhere could it? Both ends are fixed to limit rotation to the 3 degrees max as you said.
I ask because I am considering something like this for a pickup build.
Last edited by Bowtie316; 12-20-2012 at 12:50 PM.
12-20-2012, 12:33 PM
#1151
I have been looking at the speed tech torque arm....not sold on it though.
Seen some videos and it seems to ride nice.
From owning and driving a lot of torque are cars like most of the F bodies, the ride is nice and the cars cornered well.
My 2000 camaro had suspension mods and it felt like it drove on rails.
Could only hope to have the ride and cornering that I had in my camaro but added to my Nova....if only...
Seen some videos and it seems to ride nice.
From owning and driving a lot of torque are cars like most of the F bodies, the ride is nice and the cars cornered well.
My 2000 camaro had suspension mods and it felt like it drove on rails.
Could only hope to have the ride and cornering that I had in my camaro but added to my Nova....if only...
12-20-2012, 12:35 PM
#1152
First off, Epic build thread man, love it. and thanks for your insight into the different suspension systems.
Second, a question regarding your fear of the jam nut coming loose. If one end of the link has a rubber bushing, and the other a johnny-joint style link, would it even matter if the jam nut came loose. It couldn't go anywhere could it? Both ends are fixed to limit roatation to the 3 degrees max as you said.
I ask because I am considering something like this for a pickup build.
Second, a question regarding your fear of the jam nut coming loose. If one end of the link has a rubber bushing, and the other a johnny-joint style link, would it even matter if the jam nut came loose. It couldn't go anywhere could it? Both ends are fixed to limit roatation to the 3 degrees max as you said.
I ask because I am considering something like this for a pickup build.
The jam nut keeps tension to eliminate the clearance on one side of the meshed thread.
But jam nuts are prone to loosening over time and constant load-type situations...nature of the beast.
12-20-2012, 12:53 PM
#1153
If the jam nut comes loose, the ID threads will get pounded to bits because the clearance between the ID/OD of the threads will constantly get "worked" as the direction of load is changed. After a while, it will basically wear the threads out and both pieces are then junk.
The jam nut keeps tension to eliminate the clearance on one side of the meshed thread.
But jam nuts are prone to loosening over time and constant load-type situations...nature of the beast.
The jam nut keeps tension to eliminate the clearance on one side of the meshed thread.
But jam nuts are prone to loosening over time and constant load-type situations...nature of the beast.
12-20-2012, 01:54 PM
#1154
First off, Epic build thread man, love it. and thanks for your insight into the different suspension systems.
Second, a question regarding your fear of the jam nut coming loose. If one end of the link has a rubber bushing, and the other a johnny-joint style link, would it even matter if the jam nut came loose. It couldn't go anywhere could it? Both ends are fixed to limit rotation to the 3 degrees max as you said.
I ask because I am considering something like this for a pickup build.
Second, a question regarding your fear of the jam nut coming loose. If one end of the link has a rubber bushing, and the other a johnny-joint style link, would it even matter if the jam nut came loose. It couldn't go anywhere could it? Both ends are fixed to limit rotation to the 3 degrees max as you said.
I ask because I am considering something like this for a pickup build.
12-20-2012, 02:20 PM
#1155
On snowmobiles, if you do not crank the jam nuts on all of the radius rods, they will work themselves to the point that the metal spherical rod end will "file" out the threaded ID of the rod...and then the front end falls apart...ask me how I know...
Having long jam nuts does help too.
Most of the time, the jam nuts are the half nuts that are super short.
If you play your cards right and leave yourself enough room, having a longer nut is best to have more contact area to keep the nut from backing off.
Having long jam nuts does help too.
Most of the time, the jam nuts are the half nuts that are super short.
If you play your cards right and leave yourself enough room, having a longer nut is best to have more contact area to keep the nut from backing off.
12-20-2012, 06:01 PM
#1157
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Geez.. all that and I didn't even fully answer Drednot's question... To add to the G-link comments.. all the effort was worth it to me to get that ride height I wanted without compromising bump travel by going to shorter & stiffer springs, or by a shorter shock, or by lowering the lower shock mounting brackets (and making them dangerously close to the ground and road obstacles IMO).
If I were to do it all over again, and if I had known the effort involved to get the ride height I wanted, I probably would've gone with the DSE for the rubber bushings, as well as the fact that I ended up cutting my trunk floorpan out between the framerails anyways.
That being said, I don't regret getting the G-link and modifying it at all.. it was one of those things that I just couldn't really know for sure until I had the thing purchased, unwrapped, mockup-installed, and slammed the wheels/axle in full compression.
If I were to do it all over again, and if I had known the effort involved to get the ride height I wanted, I probably would've gone with the DSE for the rubber bushings, as well as the fact that I ended up cutting my trunk floorpan out between the framerails anyways.
That being said, I don't regret getting the G-link and modifying it at all.. it was one of those things that I just couldn't really know for sure until I had the thing purchased, unwrapped, mockup-installed, and slammed the wheels/axle in full compression.
I have been looking into all of these systems, even Hot Rods to Hell's trailing arm suspension for quite awhile now. I am ready to pull the trigger and can't decide. This is my first PT full on build and I want a good bang for the buck system that is easy to install. I was liking the BMR torque arm because it appears it is the only fully bolt in system, but looking at the price,it is w/o shocks. So, adding coilovers puts it alot more expensive than the others. The DSE is just too much cutting and fab for me at this point. The full Ridetech system looks good and fairly inexpensive, but the airbar isn't adjustable. I had pretty much decided on ATS and SPC on the front and the G-link in the back and ridetech coils. I figure I may ave to study your mods on this thread to get the ride height tho.
Great thread and it may be invaluable to me in the long run! Thanks for the info.
Slownova,
I am sure there are plenty of guys that can answer your question on the vette rims here, but I was talking to Tobin at Kore3 about some brakes and I told him I was working on a 1974 Nova and he said he was building a 73/74 also. He sent me pics of his and he has C6 rims on it. I asked him about them and he said he made the spacers and if I wanted to use C6 rims he could hook me up with the proper size spacers. That was a couple years ago but you may want to give him a call. I don't know if he ever finished the Nova or if he kept the wheels.
12-20-2012, 07:12 PM
#1158
Slownova,
I am sure there are plenty of guys that can answer your question on the vette rims here, but I was talking to Tobin at Kore3 about some brakes and I told him I was working on a 1974 Nova and he said he was building a 73/74 also. He sent me pics of his and he has C6 rims on it. I asked him about them and he said he made the spacers and if I wanted to use C6 rims he could hook me up with the proper size spacers. That was a couple years ago but you may want to give him a call. I don't know if he ever finished the Nova or if he kept the wheels.
I am sure there are plenty of guys that can answer your question on the vette rims here, but I was talking to Tobin at Kore3 about some brakes and I told him I was working on a 1974 Nova and he said he was building a 73/74 also. He sent me pics of his and he has C6 rims on it. I asked him about them and he said he made the spacers and if I wanted to use C6 rims he could hook me up with the proper size spacers. That was a couple years ago but you may want to give him a call. I don't know if he ever finished the Nova or if he kept the wheels.
12-26-2012, 08:39 PM
#1159
I have been looking at the speed tech torque arm....not sold on it though.
Seen some videos and it seems to ride nice.
From owning and driving a lot of torque are cars like most of the F bodies, the ride is nice and the cars cornered well.
My 2000 camaro had suspension mods and it felt like it drove on rails.
Could only hope to have the ride and cornering that I had in my camaro but added to my Nova....if only...
Seen some videos and it seems to ride nice.
From owning and driving a lot of torque are cars like most of the F bodies, the ride is nice and the cars cornered well.
My 2000 camaro had suspension mods and it felt like it drove on rails.
Could only hope to have the ride and cornering that I had in my camaro but added to my Nova....if only...