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Question for you guys using 200+ shots

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Old 12-01-2011, 03:38 PM
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Default Question for you guys using 200+ shots

I am posting in this forum because I am wanting advice coming from experienced folks, not theory or "my buddy". I am currently setting up my system for a 250 shot, I have the nitrous outlet plate, big solenoids, and a nano 4500 kit. I am running the ngk8 series plugs for this size shot as reccomended by N/O. Here is my question, Timing: I HAVE THE LINGENFELTER controller, I Have always heard pull 2 degrees for every 50hp of spray. So for a 250 shot that would mean I need to pull10 degrees, I know my current tune has timing set at 28degrees. So is that enough timing to remove?, too much? What are you guys seeing as a realistic amount, AND,,,how do I know if its the right amount. From what I know too little timing removed would cause detonation and I would see metal on the plug insulator from the piston. And I may or may not hear the detonation. But what about too much timing, how do you tell. I do have a wideband afr gauge in the car, thats what I figure will help me get close to the correct figure between lean and rich, and,trying to read the plugs. The engine setup is in my sig,,thanks in advance for any time you spare helping me try and figure this stuff out, Ronnie
Old 12-01-2011, 04:46 PM
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.

I run a different animal then you and never spray less then 300 anymore, but this is my car, not some buddy.
You can't go wrong with 2 per 50.
You might find it likes some put back, but you start safe.

I also like to be safe on my plugs, at 250 I use a 9 plug, at 300 I use a 10 and with 2 stages I use an 11.

I do have a link somewhere on how to read fuel & timing, but you will need about 50 plugs,
and you must tow the car up & back when testing.
I'll look for it later.

Also if you see metal on the plugs, it's too late and you are way too aggressive on fuel, timing or both.
So definitely start safe and learn what she likes.

Good luck.

.
Old 12-01-2011, 06:41 PM
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What fuel? I'd pull more than 10 and add it back in as you get a better handle on the tune up.
Old 12-01-2011, 06:50 PM
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Couple things to help you. pm me on specifics if it doesn't make sense. Most of these came from Monty Smith.

Heat range
I like to run as cold of a plug as I can and the motor keep it clean. There is approx 160 degrees of tip temperature difference, between heat ranges of NGK plugs. That a pretty good heat difference, so if the motor will keep a -11 clean, at idle, burnout, etc, thats what I run, because it makes the window bigger. You run a slow burning fuel and a cold plug, for the same reasons.........CONTROL THE HEAT.
monte
Timing
This is a prime example of why I say, your goal should not be to stuff as much timing as you can in there.............but to run as LITTLE as you can and not slow the car. A car does usually not have an optimum timing number, but a timing "window" and being in the lower part of the window is always safer. What I mean here is this, and I am just using arbitrary numbers, most combos are not so sensitive that 10 degrees is perfect, 9 degrees slows it down and 11 degrees kills it. There is usually a "window" of around 3 degrees that you have to work with. It it runs as well at 10 degrees total, as it does at 13 degrees total, you should run it at 10. This gives you a cushion and you are never "on the edge" should the weather change.

Monte
Heat in the Strap
An NGK strap, will not really get the purple ring that an Autolite does. The first thing you see on an NGK, is that the cad is sort of just bubbled up and ashey looking, with maybe a goldish tint. A wipe with your finger will clean the strap right off. This is NO heat and usually very safe. When you start getting heat in an NGK, you WILL see it. The strap will obviously get darker, startting at the end and moving toward the bend. The color will be a dark brown, or even black looking, but will be easily seen. If you are having trouble seeing heat in an NGK plug, you probably don't have any

Monte
Timing Mark
The ideal spot for the timing mark, is where the car runs the best. I could care less where the mark is on the strap...............If you think it can handle more, try a degree and see what happens. If it picks up mph, you went the right way. If it does not, don't keep adding, to get to the magic spot. The SAFE way to run it, would be to take timing OUT, until it slows, add one degree back and then lock er down
Old 12-01-2011, 07:09 PM
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One more good one for ya.

by Mike Canter

Other than installing thermo-coupler sensors in the combustion chambers the only real way that you know what is happening inside your engine is to read the spark plugs. Both the fuel mixture and the ignition timing result in coloring of the spark plug’s porcelain and ground strap. The trick is to how to get the correct coloring without going into detonation and destroying the engine or by going too rich and raising the ring lands.

Spark plugs can only be correctly read if the car has been shut down immediately at the end of a run without driving it back to the pits. Get off the track and coast to a place you are safely out of the way and either read the plug there or change one or two with some you have in your pocket so you can read these uncontaminated plugs when back to the pits. Or you should tow the car back to the pits. It may take a couple of runs to get see the sparkplug color.
Reading For Air Fuel Mixture

The porcelain around the plug’s center electrode can be divided into three areas for reading. The area that is closest to the tip is affected by the idle and transition circuits carburetor circuits and is of no real concern to a racer. If this area is gray then you drove the car back to the pits and you cannot correctly read the plugs. The middle area is only colored when you drive down the road at around a steady 30-40 mph and is normally affected by the primary circuit jetting with the power valve closed and this is really of no concern to the racer. The area you are interested in is that third that is all the way up inside the plug where the sun don't shine. This area is colored when all is wide open under full power because the combustion chamber heat totally cleans off the other two areas. It will take a special plug reading flashlight with the magnifying glass to view it correctly. Plugs cannot be correctly read by just quickly looking at them with the naked eye. You see people doing it all the time because they do not know how to read plugs.

Normally aspirated cars should have a light gray or tan hydrocarbon ring or as some call it a "fuel ring" all the way up inside around the third area closest to the point where the porcelain is attached to the metal jacket of the plug. The actual color may depend on type of fuel you use. This fuel ring should appear like a light shadow. Most VP C-15, C-16 or C23+ fuels will show as a light gray when correct. This fuel ring starts to color on the porcelain side that is below the ground strap and works its way around either side of the center electrode until it completely joins. Sometimes it may take two or three runs to see a good coloring. Note: New engines or engines that pump a little oil may show a thin oily line way down inside on the porcelain where the porcelain meets the metal wall of the plug. This oil line has nothing to do with the air/fuel mixture but may be confused with the fuel ring you are looking for.If you are having a hard time figuring out if what you are reading is correct or because you are not sure if the plug heat range is correct then tow the car back to the pits and drop the headers and look inside the pipes. If they are black then you are too rich, if they are light gray or white then you are too lean. The pipes should be a medium to dark gray or tan color.

Normally the white area of the porcelain has a chalky appearance. If you see the porcelain take on a shine then it is time to change the plugs because the glass that is in the porcelain has been melted and has glazed the surface. If the car has been running rich (due to lots of idling or incorrect fuel mixture) then it is possible to glaze the plugs and short them out during a run because of the sudden heating of the plug with the soot on the porcelain. This glazing appears to be a glossy coating on the porcelain with a splotches of color of greenish yellow or brown. These two different glazings will cause the plug to short out and misfire and raise ring lands or make a popping through the exhaust when going down the track.
Reading For Ignition Timing

Ignition timing is directly responsible for the heat in the combustion chamber and therefore the color of the plug’s ground strap and the color of the first few threads on the outside of the plug. The ignition timing can be checked by looking at the color of the plug’s ground strap and the position of the "blue line" on the strap. The blue line really indicates the point at which the strap has reached annealing temperature of the metal. To help to understand this think of a bar of steel (ground strap) on a table that is being super heated with a acetylene torch at one of the tip ends. As the end heats up and the heat starts moving down the bar you will see a blue line across the bar at some point down the bar away from tip with the torch. This blue line reflects the temperature that is the annealing point of the metal. As the temperature increases the blue line moves further down the bar away from the torch. Similarly, the blue line moves down the spark plug ground strap as you put more heat in the engine.

If you are using a gold colored ground strap like with an NGK spark plug then not enough timing will show the ground strap as still gold or going light gray maybe with a few bubbles on it after a run. As you advance the ignition and put heat in the engine the plug ground strap will turn darker gray as well as the metal at the end of the threaded area. As the metal turns medium to dark gray you should start looking for the blue line (band) around the ground strap. Ideally, you want this blue line to be just below where the ground strap makes the sharp bend and above the weld. If you advance the ignition too far the blue will disappear off the strap and the strap will pick up rainbow colors (blues and greens). The next step beyond that is to start melting the strap from the tip end and detonation. When you are close to the correct timing then only change the timing by one degree at a time. If you ignition system has the capability of adjusting the timing of each cylinder independently (ICT) then you can use that feature to have the blue line in the same position on all the plugs. First, adjust the basic timing to get as many of the plugs to have the blue line just at the sharp bend in the strap. Now adjust the ICT to move the blue line to the same point on the remaining plugs. Once all the plugs read the same you can advance the ignition a little at a time to put the blue line just above the weld on the strap or whatever point gives you the best performance.
Other Things To Look For

The round flat circular area of the plug at the end the threads should be dark gray or flat black and should not be sooty. If it is sooty then it can mean that your plug has not been tightened enough and you are sucking and blowing fuel and air past the threads of the plug.

Detonation shows up on the plugs as spotting on the porcelain. There are two different types of spotting seen. One type appears as just black spots and the other appears as little bright spots like diamonds. The black spots (look like pepper sprinkled on the plug) indicate a little too much heat on the plug which causes detonation by having the heated plug fire off the mixture prior to the spark firing. This creates two flame fronts that collide and can cause great amounts of damage. If you see black spots on the porcelain and you know the tune-up is correct then you may need a colder plug. If you are not sure then increase the carburetor jet size slightly, take out some timing, or go to a colder plug. If you hold the plug in the sun and you see what appears to be small diamonds on the porcelain then your detonation is severe enough to be blowing off the aluminum from your piston and you need to add fuel and/or take out timing now.
Spark Plug Heat Range

If you keep on adding timing until your finish MPH falls off but you still have no color on the plug’s ground strap but the porcelain has good color then your plug is too cold.

If you have lots of color on the ground strap but the porcelain is clean and white then the plug heat range is too hot. The heat from the plug is cleaning of the fuel ring from the porcelain.
Old 12-01-2011, 09:09 PM
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Thanks fellas, good info, something else I forgot to mention is I am running a low pressure standalone system, I have been running 109 unleaded I was told that race gas would kill my O2 sensors???
Old 12-03-2011, 10:17 PM
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very good info
Old 12-04-2011, 07:09 AM
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.

Mike is one smart cookie. The best part is the info is accurate and works for everyone.
You can tune a stock street car with a small plate like most of the guys here,
or 1100+ HP track only cars that spray 700-800, and everyone in between.
Once you learn and see for yourself what he's saying, it's not that difficult.

Now I would suggest picking up a bunch of fresh plugs, and either towing up & back, or at least changing them on the return road.
I also have one of the doctor's ear tools for looking inside, but we are old and 1/2 blind??


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Old 12-04-2011, 10:14 AM
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Thats what I am going to do, got some extra sets of plugs, and will take the quad with me to the track, and have the wife tow me back and do my best to read the plugs.
Old 12-04-2011, 03:55 PM
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Do you have a good gauge to flow the system? If not invest in one. I used to use one that measured down to 1/10 of a lb that was made by Nx. Its a trial and error. When I ran a 250 shot it used to like 6 degrees pulled. It wont hurt to take a little to much out then bring it back in based on the plug reading.
Old 12-06-2011, 04:08 PM
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.

I forgot to mention that I ordered a new 800 HP kit and I'm having Monte Smith set it up.
He's also one smart cookie especially on building & tuning nitrous systems.

Anyone who is serious about running good & safe definitely needs a flow tool.
Now I know nothing about an injected type system, but for a basic carb, regulator, fogger/plate,
you need to know exactly what the fuel is doing!!

.




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