GeorgeC

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I don't understand why everyone seems stuck on the 3200lb. minimum weight. My car weighs about 3120lbs right now, and is not "gutted" or ghetto looking. I have carpet, 2 seats, a console, all interior panels, etc... I've spent some money on lightweight stuff to get the raceweight down, and there are still a few more things I can do to get even lighter. The car still "looks" the part of a street car. Hell, it's still registered/insured, and I do drive it on the street!

It's a pain in the rear to add a bunch of weight to the car to make a 3200lb. minimum. Why not make it 3000lbs. or so? As far as "racecars" go, 3000lbs would still be considered a relatively heavy car, IMHO...

Guido

Hey george your 382 ci engine * 6.5 # / CI = 2483#

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" />

JimmyKash

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Guido:
<strong>Hey george your 382 ci engine * 6.5 # / CI = 2483#

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why do i feel an edit coming from george soon <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

whoa...i didn't notice how light we can be. my 355 twin turbo with a factory block would come in @ 7.6*355=2698 whoohoo....time to start drilling holes baby

Paging Colonel: Where are the best places to drill but still hide holes? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

<small>[ November 07, 2002, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: JimmyKash ]</small>

GeorgeC

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Guido:
<strong>Hey george your 382 ci engine * 6.5 # / CI = 2483#</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Man, it's time for me to start builing a stock suspension tube chassis car w/carbon fiber body! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

Seriously, I think you have the right idea Guido. A lbs/CI factor would even things up a bit. I hate to bitch/complain about rules, and would rather just show up, race, and have fun, but it's pretty tough for me to hope to compete with 43x cid engines. There could be other factors as well, such as hydrualic cammed cars getting a weight break, etc...

Just an example, at the TR shootout my class was a 3200lb. minimum. Besides me, the other cars entered all had 430+cid engines. We can use that to come up with a lbs./CID factor of ~7.37. By that same factor, I could have showed up with a raceweight of 2815lbs. and theoretically been on a "level" playing field. Could I have gotten my car down to 2815lbs? Heck no (but I would damn sure try)!!!

Again, I'm not complaining about the rules, but lbs/CID factors are pretty common at many races. There has to be some kind of way to give small motored cars a break of some kind. I'm no race organizer, so I don't really know how all this stuff could be incorporated into the rules.

Just food for thought.

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

LOL @ you guys scared to drive 25 miles in your fastest *street* cars. My car is right outside in my work parking lot, and I live 22 miles from here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" />

-Tony

Guido

I saw that weight break in a previous thread posted by Tom.

What most organizations do is break it down by how the engine is built.

Just for example, a class running NA, turbos, nitrous and blowers might be setup similarly to this:

Base weight
na: 2800
nitrous: 2900
blower: 3200
turbo: 3300

and then they may go further and say that is the minumum but that nitrous cars be 8.5#/ci, blower 9.5# and turbo 10.5#.

Just exmaples mind you but that is how some places organize it to level the field.

i think 6.5# is incredibly LIGHT. Even @ 7.6# for power adder, that puts my turbo car @ #3085 which is VERY light. If Tom wants those breaks thats fine but there will be some gutted *** cars showing up! LOL <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />

The Big Show

iTrader: (2)

I just caught on to this thread. And for the people who do know me, you know I have no problem speaking my mind. Whether you choose to like or hear it doesn't matter entirely too much to me. I realize this was started out as an LS1 site but as you see it has spawned and all generations and other types of cars enjoying hanging out here. I tell you though, everytime I read a "It needs to be LS1 only....or "Its not LS1 so its not fair..." it really makes me wonder sometimes why I make this one of my routine stops during the day.

Anyway, heads up f-body races are cool. I was looking forward to NFRA but things changed. Thunder Racing decides to put together a race and it really turned out well. There are some things that can be improved upon IMO but I think it turned out well.

I have no idea why you guys want to keep this thing fuel injected only. Stock suspended f-bodies...yes...FI only? Why? Ya scared? What does it matter what type of induction you choose to run especially if the block is still based off the stock casting? Some people like to be different and set trends.

These kick off races that will lead to other things need car count. Thats where the $$$ draw is and thats where the fun begins. No one wants to go to a race and see 20 cars run.

I think everyone is putting in some good inputs but you really need to open your minds and stop with the LS1 only path.

Coach 02 A3 Z/28

iTrader: (10)

Hell, I don't have one of the fastest street car around but if Madman goes to this race I will be there with the Hot Rod. <img border="0" alt="[devil]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_devil.gif" />

My Hot Rod is a race car that I drive on the street not a street car I race at the track. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

I will run in any class they will let me run in. Iam not SKERD! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" />

Of course if thier is a bracket class I am in that for sure. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="gr_images/icons/cool.gif" />

Get the rules made, track picked, date and who knows we may have one hell of a race. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

RAGEman

iTrader: (4)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by The Big Show:
<strong>I just caught on to this thread. And for the people who do know me, you know I have no problem speaking my mind. Whether you choose to like or hear it doesn't matter entirely too much to me. I realize this was started out as an LS1 site but as you see it has spawned and all generations and other types of cars enjoying hanging out here. I tell you though, everytime I read a "It needs to be LS1 only....or "Its not LS1 so its not fair..." it really makes me wonder sometimes why I make this one of my routine stops during the day.

Anyway, heads up f-body races are cool. I was looking forward to NFRA but things changed. Thunder Racing decides to put together a race and it really turned out well. There are some things that can be improved upon IMO but I think it turned out well.

I have no idea why you guys want to keep this thing fuel injected only. Stock suspended f-bodies...yes...FI only? Why? Ya scared? What does it matter what type of induction you choose to run especially if the block is still based off the stock casting? Some people like to be different and set trends.

These kick off races that will lead to other things need car count. Thats where the $$$ draw is and thats where the fun begins. No one wants to go to a race and see 20 cars run.

I think everyone is putting in some good inputs but you really need to open your minds and stop with the LS1 only path.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm not sure of what relevance your lack of hesitation to speak your mind is to this discussion, but here's an interesting question for you. Why have any limits at all if you're offended by an LS1-only limit? What if I had a non-stock-style suspension F-Body, could I whine and cry and say all you stock-style suspension guys are closed-minded and then maybe get my way, get to race, and annihilate you all? Now, let me just say that personally, I would prefer to have as many cars as possible, but I don't necessarily dislike the idea of an all-LS1 shootout at some point in the future. This site has attracted many people that don't own LS1's, and that's just fine. Every one of you is welcome, I assure you. But I don't see why people cry when someone mentions an all-LS1 event. Maybe we don't want some freakin' awesome LT1 or SBC car like Brian's coming to the event and showing us all what's up. No one here is saying that LS1's are faster than all other cars and that no other types of motors are worthy to join us. But, what's so horrible about some people wanting an all LS1-event? Now, don't get me wrong. For this big-dawg shootout, I would CERTAINLY agree with those who say to allow other gens and other motors. It's just a matter of where to draw the line as far as the rules. Somehow we have to figure out what set of rules will please the most people, since we'll never be able to please everyone.

The Big Show

iTrader: (2)

I'm not going to turn this into a pissin' match like the NFRA threads use to be so don't get my tone confused. All I'm saying is that this thread was titled as a fastest 4th gen so thats what lured me in. I started reading and got excited about another heads up f-body race. There was never a mention of an LS1 only race, it said fastest 4th gen. Then I see LS1 guys start crying about rules and other cars and other types of inductions and it rattled me a bit. I continued to read all the comments and such and could see not everyone here feels the same but the majority of the people that responded do so I decided to make a comment of my own.

I like the idea of having an all f-body race where suspension areas are limited. THIS is what levels the playin' field. If you can build a 2K hp motor but can't put the power on the asphalt then you are going no where fast and will lose to the car with a whole lot less hp. So no, I don't wanna say invite 4 links and ladder bars to come play but I don't see why there should be limits to inductions. I think the Thunder setup was nice in class layout but I think the weight was a killer in the 'big dawg' classes. Let the naturally aspirated guys get their weight down to compete with the forced inducted players. Keep it stock suspended so guys have to know how to drive their cars.

SLED28

iTrader: (7)

If you think 2000HP won't go any faster than 1000HP in a stock suspension class your wrong! A 1.28 60' with 2000hp will go 7's <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

Great input for Tom and the other folks (me) who really want to see another race or two in 2003.

Stuff like for Newbird, with the 14" tires... Is that Ron D? That is an odd size, you would need to run no more than say a 13.5 DOT to be with the rest of the crowd, and you can certainly afford another set of tires and rims. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

Just because some folks can perhaps drive their cars on the street that does not mean that they are STREET cars, are safe on the street, or are legal for the street.

Clearly something like this needs to focus on the fast LT1 and LS1 cars for sure, and 3rd gens maybe. Get the 3rd gen guys in here to post and maybe they can stay in... no promises. Get like that 3rd gen guy from out East with the LT1 conversion (black bird on the gun) and cars like that out. But if someone has a 4-link see ya.

Try to discuss how there can be a consensus on this so it can happen now's the time to secure track dates.

<small>[ November 07, 2002, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: Pro Stock John ]</small>

Nick D'Agostino

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by SLED28:
<strong>If you think 2000HP won't go any faster than 1000HP in a stock suspension class your wrong! A 1.28 60' with 2000hp will go 7's <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Amen to that.

I say as long as you are stock suspended and running a small block then bring it. That would be a much better race to watch than just LS1 cars or 4th Gens. Not that either of those races would bebad, but I personally like some variety at the race track <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="gr_images/icons/cool.gif" />

JimmyKash

i've got an idea for everyone that should fit right in:

we'll make 4th gens race and we'll make 3rd gen cars do pit work

we'll make 4th gen owners go to the bathroom in the tower and make 3rd gen owners go in outhouses

we'll make 4th gen owners sleep in a hotel and we'll make 3rd gen owners sleep in their cars

Sounds like a plan to me~! <img border="0" alt="[Fluffy]" title="" src="graemlins/fluffy.gif" />

Guido

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Pro Stock John:
<strong>Clearly something like this needs to focus on the fast LT1 and LS1 cars for sure, and 3rd gens maybe. Get the 3rd gen guys in here to post and maybe they can stay in... no promises. Get like that 3rd gen guy from out East with the LT1 conversion (black bird on the gun) and cars like that out. But if someone has a 4-link see ya.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How about make the engine and chassis rules the same and it will be a moot point. The only difference between 3rd and 4th gens is that you guys have a different front spring setup than we do. Allow coil over conversion for 3rd gens in stock places and its virtually the same car. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />

KTamez

Aren't these discussions FUN! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

I find it VERY VERY simple (In a nutshell anyways).

It all boils down to ONE thing. What CAN be done with a given combination. If a 4 Link is allowed it makes it possible for guys like Josh Mclelland(sp?), Mark Enwia's old car, or numerous other Super Street type cars that run DEEP 7s. I doubt that would be much fun for us. Not saying they'd show up. I doubt they would. But thats the kind of stuff thats possible. It ALL comes down to whats feasibly possible with the combination.

If its decided to only be 3rd and 4th Gen? These cars all have the same suspension. Alls fair. The fastest Slapper Bar/Leaf Spring car (1st/2nd Gen) I've heard of is in the mid 8s.... So how is that any different then a Torque Arm suspended cars that have gotten into the 8s? Seems like a fairly w/ all Generations on Stock suspension to me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

Carbs and EFI. Here we go with this one again. Sorry guys but whats wrong with a Carburator? Nothing. Quite frankly all things being equal with two well tuned cars, the Carb car is gonna be the same or possibly slower then a EFI car. Sounds like a level playing field again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

Engines/CI/Weight? I'm not an expert, but there are several other sanctioning bodies out there that have refined there weight breaks over the years. The Simpler the better. This is JMO, but this seems fair and simple:

3000lbs base weight
+200lbs any Single Power Adder
+200lbs Turbos over 91mm

Gotta keep the rules open. The more rules the more cars you eliminate.

Just my $.02 .

I really like Thunder's rules overall for most of the classes. It could be opened up just a hair in some things, and restrict a couple other things but overall they're pretty sweet and to the point.

<small>[ November 07, 2002, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: KTamez ]</small>

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

Something like this needs simple but safe rules.

13.5 DOT or 10.5W sure makes a lot of sense to me. I would not care if someone has tubs or relo'd LCA's as long as they had the same size tire.

4-link or coilovers and there is a weight penalty or you can't race.

If it were me, I would write the structure for most part around LT1-LS1 cars but if it made sense I would come up with rules that allowed 3rd gens with non-production blocks but with weight penalties. What if I wanted to show up with a 94 TA with a bowtie block and a 103mm turbo can I race and what's the weight for the class, 3200? I'm so there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

FWIW April comes up fast...

KTamez

John,

I agree that there should probably be more weight penalties, but where do you stop? I'm not real big on weight penalties for aftermarket blocks. Theres no power made with engine blocks.

The list could go on forever:

+250lbs Single Turbos >91mm
+200lb for Aftermarket Manual Trans
+100lbs for heads that aren't 23* Valve Angle
(Sorry LS1 boys but fair is fair right?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" /> )
+100lbs for Wheelie Bars
+200lbs for Roots Superchargers over 8-71
+50lbs for Non Stock Intake In stock Configuraion
+100lbs for Aftermarket Intake, Sheetmetal, EFI Carb Style (This would automatically add 100lbs to the Carb'd guys for those of you sceered of Carbs)
-200lbs for V6s
-200lbs for Factory Manual Trans
-100lbs for factory Engine Management

And lastly
-750lbs for anyone named PSJ (Just trying have way a for you to keep up if you decided to spray and come play with us. <img border="0" alt="[devil]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_devil.gif" /> j/k bud. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

-K

<small>[ November 07, 2002, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: KTamez ]</small>

The Big Show

iTrader: (2)

Hahahah!!! At least you guys take my posting serious <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

Man, lets get this kicked off. I haven't been racing in over 3 years and I'm about dying for some HEADS UP action next year. Especially after watching everybody else go down the track at the Thunder Shootout.

SLED28

iTrader: (7)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by The Big Show:
[QB]Hahahah!!! At least you guys take my posting serious <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I always take your posts seriously! You know that!

Kurtis,
I agree with that , except have no-penalty for wheelie bars, I would consider this safety especially with what went on at No Problem <img border="0" alt="[Camaro]" title="" src="graemlins/camaro.gif" /> Raceway!

Where would you start with Weights.
How about have a seperate N/A class with the same rules?

Dave
94 LT1 Z28
9.11@155 1.36 60'
3400 lbs, N20

<small>[ November 07, 2002, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: SLED28 ]</small>