410rwhp 434 rwtq. minor issues.
10-25-2010, 07:39 PM
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410rwhp 434 rwtq. minor issues. I put this in the newbie forum and got no response so I will try it here. If its the wrong forum mods please move it.Well I sold my cobra a while back and have since bought a 1999 camaro z28 with an sts turbo. I bought the car in Vegas and me and the wife drove it (over several days ) back to alabama. Car gave me no problems except having to buy a new battery in Oklahoma City. I knew the elevation change would throw the tune out of whack so I took it to speedsouth in Pelham,AL.
Aside from the sts system with the 60mm turbo, its an A4 with no modifications that I am aware of, the only engine modification that was made to the car was a set of red top injectors ( ford 30lb red top) car ran decent just a little sluggish especially once I got here back in alabama.Originally it had no intercooler and I was told he was running the 5lb spring in the wastegate,the first thing I did was buy an intercooler set up and install it, Next thing I did was get a set of 60lb Siemens Deka injectors. Well once I took it to the dyno shop and left it the fun began. First thing we noticed was we had an oil problem in the intake and exhaust. I did some research here and saw that it was common with the sts system. They took out the resistor, got rid of the t-tap in the harness, we found it was a bad check valve so we replaced it. They had to remove the intercooler and piping to clean the oil out of it. We thought the oil could have been causing the knock at 4500 rpms.Turns out one of the knock sensors was cracked so we replaced both of them. The next run on the dyno we got to 5200 or 5400 rpms and the boost went from 7 psi to almost 8 psi and the power fell off. The next thing we did was remove the cats and ran it again and now at 5400 rpms the same thing, boost climbs and power falls off. They come to the conclusion that is a valve spring. At this point I went and picked up the car and brought it home. The car made 410rwhp 434 rwtq on a conservative mustang dyno. Although its a ton of fun to drive because the feel when the boost builds and the sound of that turbo is awsome. I've had N/A cars and nitrous cars, this is my first turbo car and first LS engine car so I am new to all this and trying to learn as much as I can. I asked a buddy at a local shop in town and he said that it sounds like I am floating a valve and that I need to upgrade the springs. He also warns that I should upgrade the valves since I would run the risk on snapping the head off a valve with better springs and really tearing something up. I checked around and valves and springs would be around $500 and thats not installing them. After looking around here and reading I'm thinking it may be better suited to just do a head and cam swap. I'm trying to learn the difference in all the casting numbers between 853's, 241's, 243's which from what I read are better than the rest? I thought I also read that on some of the 243's they required different length pushrods? Well I'm hopefully going to be picking up my 4.6 engine and built heads from the machine shop in the next week and hope to sell them to have some money. I'm planning on doing an ls6 intake while I am at it.Has anyone else ran into this problem and does it sound like I'm floating a valve? What are my options as far as head and cam packages and what kind of numbers can I expect to see on the same dyno with certain heads and cam and ls6 intake? I think the problems I have run into have been minor problems for a car that I drove almost 2k miles home and only replaced a battery right?Sorry this is a long post. I've been reading as much as I can trying to answer my own question, but I have come to the conclusion that its easier to ask at this point. Thanks again.
Aside from the sts system with the 60mm turbo, its an A4 with no modifications that I am aware of, the only engine modification that was made to the car was a set of red top injectors ( ford 30lb red top) car ran decent just a little sluggish especially once I got here back in alabama.Originally it had no intercooler and I was told he was running the 5lb spring in the wastegate,the first thing I did was buy an intercooler set up and install it, Next thing I did was get a set of 60lb Siemens Deka injectors. Well once I took it to the dyno shop and left it the fun began. First thing we noticed was we had an oil problem in the intake and exhaust. I did some research here and saw that it was common with the sts system. They took out the resistor, got rid of the t-tap in the harness, we found it was a bad check valve so we replaced it. They had to remove the intercooler and piping to clean the oil out of it. We thought the oil could have been causing the knock at 4500 rpms.Turns out one of the knock sensors was cracked so we replaced both of them. The next run on the dyno we got to 5200 or 5400 rpms and the boost went from 7 psi to almost 8 psi and the power fell off. The next thing we did was remove the cats and ran it again and now at 5400 rpms the same thing, boost climbs and power falls off. They come to the conclusion that is a valve spring. At this point I went and picked up the car and brought it home. The car made 410rwhp 434 rwtq on a conservative mustang dyno. Although its a ton of fun to drive because the feel when the boost builds and the sound of that turbo is awsome. I've had N/A cars and nitrous cars, this is my first turbo car and first LS engine car so I am new to all this and trying to learn as much as I can. I asked a buddy at a local shop in town and he said that it sounds like I am floating a valve and that I need to upgrade the springs. He also warns that I should upgrade the valves since I would run the risk on snapping the head off a valve with better springs and really tearing something up. I checked around and valves and springs would be around $500 and thats not installing them. After looking around here and reading I'm thinking it may be better suited to just do a head and cam swap. I'm trying to learn the difference in all the casting numbers between 853's, 241's, 243's which from what I read are better than the rest? I thought I also read that on some of the 243's they required different length pushrods? Well I'm hopefully going to be picking up my 4.6 engine and built heads from the machine shop in the next week and hope to sell them to have some money. I'm planning on doing an ls6 intake while I am at it.Has anyone else ran into this problem and does it sound like I'm floating a valve? What are my options as far as head and cam packages and what kind of numbers can I expect to see on the same dyno with certain heads and cam and ls6 intake? I think the problems I have run into have been minor problems for a car that I drove almost 2k miles home and only replaced a battery right?Sorry this is a long post. I've been reading as much as I can trying to answer my own question, but I have come to the conclusion that its easier to ask at this point. Thanks again.
10-25-2010, 08:01 PM
#3
Ok, first off, a LS6 intake is a good choice, but if you can, I'd go for a Fast 90/90 or 92/92 used. Shouldn't be too much since the 102s are out and so on. As for the heads...I wouldn't worry about the valves. Thats not a issue with these, but the LS6 heads (243s) have sodium filled lightweight valves, so thats a plus. Heads aren't as important on a FI car though. You might as well go with a cam though since your gonna need springs. Cam/springs/LS2 timing chain/LS6 ported oil pump, and maybe a new set of LS7 lifters if you do infact pull the heads. The LS2 timing chain is stronger and cheap insurance, as well as the LS6 ported oil pump. Thats just one of those things you replace while your in there. Lifters aren't necessary, but if you pull the heads, again, not a bad idea since there not expensive. The tranny is gonna be the one thats gonna NEED some attention though if its stock like you say. Personally, I'd go with a stall. This is just general things that if your thinking heads/cam, there good ideas to go ahead and do em while your at it. So in summation, if I were you, I'd go with:
LS6 intake or Fast if you can swing it
243 heads if your gonna go with a set
FI cam and matching springs/hardened pushrod combo
LS7 lifters if you do heads
LS6 oil pump & LS2 timing chain even if you only do a cam swap
Tranny rebuild/converter cause ITS GONNA NEED IT if its stock.
Do it once, and do it right. Its not cheap in the short term, but long term can save you alot of BS.
LS6 intake or Fast if you can swing it
243 heads if your gonna go with a set
FI cam and matching springs/hardened pushrod combo
LS7 lifters if you do heads
LS6 oil pump & LS2 timing chain even if you only do a cam swap
Tranny rebuild/converter cause ITS GONNA NEED IT if its stock.
Do it once, and do it right. Its not cheap in the short term, but long term can save you alot of BS.
10-25-2010, 09:16 PM
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Thanks for the input. The air fuel ratio is around 11.6-11.7ish. Not sure about the fuel pressure itself though. I wanted to check the spring pressure but the tool to check the springs on the heads is around 220 bucks and ones with the springs off are more so to me it makes more sense to use this as an excuse and go ahead and upgrade. LOL
The stock tranny really scares me too. I emailed FLT and they said they had the stage 2 for $1700 so I thought that was pretty good. Maybe between this winter and spring I can get all the bugs worked out.
Squee-I appreciate the list, I hadn't thought about oil pump or timing chain. I've always used comp cams in my cars but I'm seeing alot more people using Lunati cams, are they comparable?
The stock tranny really scares me too. I emailed FLT and they said they had the stage 2 for $1700 so I thought that was pretty good. Maybe between this winter and spring I can get all the bugs worked out.
Squee-I appreciate the list, I hadn't thought about oil pump or timing chain. I've always used comp cams in my cars but I'm seeing alot more people using Lunati cams, are they comparable?
10-25-2010, 09:26 PM
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Thanks for the input. The air fuel ratio is around 11.6-11.7ish. Not sure about the fuel pressure itself though. I wanted to check the spring pressure but the tool to check the springs on the heads is around 220 bucks and ones with the springs off are more so to me it makes more sense to use this as an excuse and go ahead and upgrade. LOL
The stock tranny really scares me too. I emailed FLT and they said they had the stage 2 for $1700 so I thought that was pretty good. Maybe between this winter and spring I can get all the bugs worked out.
Squee-I appreciate the list, I hadn't thought about oil pump or timing chain. I've always used comp cams in my cars but I'm seeing alot more people using Lunati cams, are they comparable?
The stock tranny really scares me too. I emailed FLT and they said they had the stage 2 for $1700 so I thought that was pretty good. Maybe between this winter and spring I can get all the bugs worked out.
Squee-I appreciate the list, I hadn't thought about oil pump or timing chain. I've always used comp cams in my cars but I'm seeing alot more people using Lunati cams, are they comparable?
Comp Cams owns Lunati so the springs,locks and retainers are the same. Just different part numbers. Lunati makes a good springs locks and retainers kit, part # 73925K1LUN
10-25-2010, 10:13 PM
#7
I would contact Geoff at EPS and get him to spec you a cam. I wouldn't go with a off the shelf. Also, your gonna need to do something about the fuel pump as well. If its stock, that could be one of your problems...
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10-25-2010, 10:37 PM
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I would advise going with another tuner to be honest. I haven't taken my car to speedsouth in years basically due to their prices. Maybe things have changed for the better but they were out of my range back in the day. You may want to get in contact with gomer (that's his screen name here). He does a lot of f-body tuning and that's who I've used. He may be able to help you with installing mods as well. 
10-25-2010, 10:59 PM
#9
Yeah have somebody spec you a cam for your specific application, especially since you're FI. If you keep the stock rockers, do the comp trunnion upgrade. (I think most places are out of stock for this right now though).
10-25-2010, 11:06 PM
#10
Yeah have somebody spec you a cam for your specific application, especially since you're FI. If you keep the stock rockers, do the comp trunnion upgrade. (I think most places are out of stock for this right now though).
11-01-2010, 06:27 PM
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I guess now I will be rebuilding the trans as well. Started slipping in OD yesterday. LOL That just figures. I guess the rear end will be next once I fix all this. It's tough, I'm so ready to get my first kill on this car but it just seems to be one thing after another. I will get it right eventually and will be very proud of it, just going to take longer than I thought. I know people said it doesn't take long to have alot of money in these cars but I had no idea it would be this fast. LOL Thanks for the help guys. I will post up again when I get these issues sorted out. I still don't regret getting rid of the cobra.
11-24-2010, 09:23 AM
#12
I wouldn't worry about buying anymore mods until you get everything figured out as it sits. Once you find out for sure that you have valves floating or bad fuel pressure, address that as you choose.
If you want to put a new set of heads on it and don't want to break the bank, I would recommend the casting number 317 heads. These are found on the 6.0 truck motors and are very similar to the 243 heads found on LS2 and LS6 cars with one exception, the big 71 cc combustion chambers. This will drop your compression and makes things a lot safer on a stock bottom end boosted car. Throw you a decent valve spring in there and you'll be good to go. At that point, you could probably bump the boost up a bit.
With everything right, I would imagine that the car would make in the 430 range, give or take.
It's good to know you're having fun with the car. Once everything is right, you should have very little issues out of the car. You had some unforeseeable hiccups and once they're out of the way, you'll be rocking on in no time.
Oh and btw, welcome to the GM community!
If you want to put a new set of heads on it and don't want to break the bank, I would recommend the casting number 317 heads. These are found on the 6.0 truck motors and are very similar to the 243 heads found on LS2 and LS6 cars with one exception, the big 71 cc combustion chambers. This will drop your compression and makes things a lot safer on a stock bottom end boosted car. Throw you a decent valve spring in there and you'll be good to go. At that point, you could probably bump the boost up a bit.
With everything right, I would imagine that the car would make in the 430 range, give or take.
It's good to know you're having fun with the car. Once everything is right, you should have very little issues out of the car. You had some unforeseeable hiccups and once they're out of the way, you'll be rocking on in no time.
Oh and btw, welcome to the GM community!
12-18-2010, 09:17 AM
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Thanks guys. I had the transmission built at Crocker Transmissions in Citronelle, Alabama. I shopped around and he was actually cheaper than most places that wanted to rebuild it in stock form so it just made sense to use him. He was also highly recommended by my machine shop that I use. We also put in a stall converter, just a mild 2500 stall. I do still drive the car alot and want to get decent gas mileage. I picked it up a couple days ago and WOW! I didn't realize how much the stock tranny was holding this car back. Its like an entirely new car. I also went out and bought a set of beehive spring kit, and Manley Valves to fix my heads. I just bought stock size replacements so hopefully I wont require much if any machining. I plan on one day, more than a year from now, going radical with an engine build on this camaro but what I have is fine for now. I just want to enjoy what I have without putting more money in right now since the wife is going to school so she wont be working after the first of the year. I also went ahead and bought a new Ls2 timing set and Melling oil pump to be safe. I'm hoping to install all that in the next couple weeks, and go have the final tuning done just to fine tune anything that has changed witht the new valves and springs. Shouldn't be much tuning other than fine tuning the air, fuel ratio above 5200 rpm's which is where I was having the problems with the boost rising and power falling. I'm also going to try and upgrade the fuel pump while Im at it if I can swing it since the stocker will probably be running out if it starts demanding too much more fuel. Again, thanks to everyone who has given input and advice. I will let you guys know what I find out soon after I install the new stuff. I had alot of fun already just driving it back from the transmission shop.
12-18-2010, 03:51 PM
#16
Best of luck.
12-19-2010, 07:38 PM
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Well apparently I have a bad valve spring. So I ordered new springs and the local shop suggested changing valves because with new stiffer springs at high RPM's I could run the risk of snapping the head off one of the valves. A few other people said its not a bad idea to change them out if you are changing springs anyway so hopefully its not a bad thing. LOL This will get me by for next year until I can get a heads and cam package after the wife gets out of school or I happen to get some extra money.
12-19-2010, 09:25 PM
#18
Yea I could see the logic in that if you were close on your piston to valve clearance.. idk man I just never heard of changing valves because your changing springs. If they are lighter in weight then absolutely its a good idea.. but is it a just because type of upgrade, IMO no not really when your current valves are ok.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying its a bad thing just trying to help you make the most of your money where it is more beneficial and upgrades are better warranted.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying its a bad thing just trying to help you make the most of your money where it is more beneficial and upgrades are better warranted.
12-20-2010, 02:50 PM
#19
Yea I could see the logic in that if you were close on your piston to valve clearance.. idk man I just never heard of changing valves because your changing springs. If they are lighter in weight then absolutely its a good idea.. but is it a just because type of upgrade, IMO no not really when your current valves are ok.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying its a bad thing just trying to help you make the most of your money where it is more beneficial and upgrades are better warranted.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying its a bad thing just trying to help you make the most of your money where it is more beneficial and upgrades are better warranted.
04-01-2011, 06:51 PM
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Hey guys. Just an update. Got back from Korea almost a month ago now. I installed a new oil pump, timing chain, oil scavage pump for my turbo, and trans cooler. Havent yet messed with the heads yet. Fuel pressure seemed alright if I remember before I left but I am going to double check on it.