The 5.0's are catching up....
Just because it is DOHC doesnt mean it automatically makes more HP or HP/Liter. Most of the reason why the 5.0 makes so much power is the twin independent VCT, being able to adjust the physical cam timing of both the intake and exhaust camshafts at all RPM's gives a big advantage. It allows the 5.0 to rev high and carry torque to make the HP number. HP is nothing more than a math number that comes from torque and rpm. Heads on it are NOT superior to LS castings, they are pretty much equal with no landslide victory, there isnt much technology on this motor that makes it the second coming of the LS1 
. It will get really interesting once both ford and GM add direct injection (and when GM perfects there VVT) to these motors, just imagine 12.5:1 compression on pump gas. It wont be long until both the mod motors and LSx's are making 500hp with about 5.0 liters.
HP/liter means nothing.
. It will get really interesting once both ford and GM add direct injection (and when GM perfects there VVT) to these motors, just imagine 12.5:1 compression on pump gas. It wont be long until both the mod motors and LSx's are making 500hp with about 5.0 liters.HP/liter means nothing.
Originally Posted by got-a-ls1
a pushrod is never going to compete with a well designed dohc in a hp/liter race.
I couldnt agree more that hp/liter means absolutely nothing and i dont know how many times ive already said it..... Im not sure what your trying to say. Head flow is not just about the peak numbers. Good DOHC heads can flow near peak numbers throughout much of the lift and great numbers right off of the seat. Being able to phase both the intake and exhaust cams independently are a benefit of DOHC as well. So with those two differences over a pushrod setup yes a WELL designed DOHC will make more hp/liter then a pushrod engine. I merely mentioned this because people said a engine that makes more hp/liter is better even if it makes less power. SOME PEOPLE THINK THIS IS SPECIAL, NOT ME. I could care less about hp/liter and more about how much power an engine will make, how much it weighs and where it will fit Take a 7 liter ls7 thats smaller then a 5.0 and weighs less or the same will make 600 rwhp and a boatload more torque with relative ease, but oh no it has less hp/liter then a honda. I want the biggest engine i can fit in my car. Do you think a viper owner cares if his 8.3 liter only makes 600 horsepower? hell no.
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On The Tree
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Same post you didnt continue reading.... and yes i always preach that hp is merely a calculation. I find it funny that so many people think torque gets you off the line and hp carries you down the track. I try to explain that an engine only makes torque and hp is a calculation (hp= torque * rpm / 5252) but hey cant convince everyone. Make more torque higher in rpms and then engine can do more work, or more horsepower like the calculation shows. HP is merely a measure of how much work an engine can do.
I couldnt agree more that hp/liter means absolutely nothing and i dont know how many times ive already said it..... Im not sure what your trying to say. Head flow is not just about the peak numbers. Good DOHC heads can flow near peak numbers throughout much of the lift and great numbers right off of the seat. Being able to phase both the intake and exhaust cams independently are a benefit of DOHC as well. So with those two differences over a pushrod setup yes a WELL designed DOHC will make more hp/liter then a pushrod engine. I merely mentioned this because people said a engine that makes more hp/liter is better even if it makes less power. SOME PEOPLE THINK THIS IS SPECIAL, NOT ME. I could care less about hp/liter and more about how much power an engine will make, how much it weighs and where it will fit Take a 7 liter ls7 thats smaller then a 5.0 and weighs less or the same will make 600 rwhp and a boatload more torque with relative ease, but oh no it has less hp/liter then a honda. I want the biggest engine i can fit in my car. Do you think a viper owner cares if his 8.3 liter only makes 600 horsepower? hell no.
I couldnt agree more that hp/liter means absolutely nothing and i dont know how many times ive already said it..... Im not sure what your trying to say. Head flow is not just about the peak numbers. Good DOHC heads can flow near peak numbers throughout much of the lift and great numbers right off of the seat. Being able to phase both the intake and exhaust cams independently are a benefit of DOHC as well. So with those two differences over a pushrod setup yes a WELL designed DOHC will make more hp/liter then a pushrod engine. I merely mentioned this because people said a engine that makes more hp/liter is better even if it makes less power. SOME PEOPLE THINK THIS IS SPECIAL, NOT ME. I could care less about hp/liter and more about how much power an engine will make, how much it weighs and where it will fit Take a 7 liter ls7 thats smaller then a 5.0 and weighs less or the same will make 600 rwhp and a boatload more torque with relative ease, but oh no it has less hp/liter then a honda. I want the biggest engine i can fit in my car. Do you think a viper owner cares if his 8.3 liter only makes 600 horsepower? hell no.
I should also mention that HP/L NEVER goes up in a linear scale as some people might think. If a 2.0L makes 200hp, then a 4.0 with similiar variables must make 400hp? Wrong. Friction, rotating assembly weight, etc all go up as a engine gets bigger. If a smaller engine makes more (or as much or close) power than a bigger one then, it will have variables that give it an advantage, in turn have higher VE. Some people act like as if there some sort voodoo black magic to making HP. Smaller engines will also make LESS torque, but have to carry that lesser torque number HIGHER in the powerband, and in turn be a high winding motor. Just compare F1 engines, 3.5 liter V8 that make about 250lb-ft torque, BUT rev to 18,000 RPM. HP/L is the stupidest thing to argue about.
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I couldnt agree more, my first post was more to reiterate a certain pointnot to say your wrong, but there are also certain WELL DESIGNED pushrods like the LSx. LSx have VVT and they will have direct injection. They also have cylinder deactivation, something others don't.
I should also mention that HP/L NEVER goes up in a linear scale as some people might think. If a 2.0L makes 200hp, then a 4.0 with similiar variables must make 400hp? Wrong. Friction, rotating assembly weight, etc all go up as a engine gets bigger. If a smaller engine makes more (or as much or close) power than a bigger one then, it will have variables that give it an advantage, in turn have higher VE. Some people act like as if there some sort voodoo black magic to making HP. Smaller engines will also make LESS torque, but have to carry that lesser torque number HIGHER in the powerband, and in turn be a high winding motor. Just compare F1 engines, 3.5 liter V8 that make about 250lb-ft torque, BUT rev to 18,000 RPM. HP/L is the stupidest thing to argue about.
I should also mention that HP/L NEVER goes up in a linear scale as some people might think. If a 2.0L makes 200hp, then a 4.0 with similiar variables must make 400hp? Wrong. Friction, rotating assembly weight, etc all go up as a engine gets bigger. If a smaller engine makes more (or as much or close) power than a bigger one then, it will have variables that give it an advantage, in turn have higher VE. Some people act like as if there some sort voodoo black magic to making HP. Smaller engines will also make LESS torque, but have to carry that lesser torque number HIGHER in the powerband, and in turn be a high winding motor. Just compare F1 engines, 3.5 liter V8 that make about 250lb-ft torque, BUT rev to 18,000 RPM. HP/L is the stupidest thing to argue about.
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Joined: Jan 2008
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From: Central Florida
Wow, this thread took some interesting turns...
Anyone want to talk about the new HEMI now, LOL?
We had a local 426 stroker that made over 560 rwhp here recently...through the A5 trans...not too shabby.
They are just stuck in some overweight vehicles that dont scream performance, so I think they are getting less love. The new HEMI did come out on top of several LSx competitors in the EMC this year, so there is no denying it has the goods....
Anyone want to talk about the new HEMI now, LOL?
We had a local 426 stroker that made over 560 rwhp here recently...through the A5 trans...not too shabby.
They are just stuck in some overweight vehicles that dont scream performance, so I think they are getting less love. The new HEMI did come out on top of several LSx competitors in the EMC this year, so there is no denying it has the goods....
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I am pretty impressed with these engines, they are doing pretty good well. They still have several years before we start seeing the actual potential of them. I saw some flow numbers on the heads and it was not what i was expecting. I am sure they will get better tho as better cnc programs come out for them. I was really expecting to see 350+ cfm in stock form cause all of the dyno's. Either way they still produce really nice numbers, in fact it better because it is a dohc engine.
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Cmon guys, anybody who appreciates cars cannot deny how awesome the Ford motor is. I like it because it shows that American companies can build a motor that is as refined as it's Euro counterparts. I like the LS motors for different reasons, namely simplicity and bang-for-buck.
Fanboys will continue to exist everywhere for everything and anything. I currently own a BMW and one of my friends was a Mustang guy. He bought an 08 GT and would constantly rag on my "euro garbage". He ended up flipping his Mustang over going 30mph. In 2010 when the body style's changed he said he hated them. I on the other hand liked them more. Then when the 5.0 came out I ended up liking Mustangs more than he does, but I digress....
My point is that the type of person to talk garbage about a brand solely based on name is the type of person that has many flaws in their way of thinking, and usually has bad judgment. The sort of judgment that allows you to flip a car over at 30mph.
The appeal of the 5.0 is it's sophistication. There is a sense of exotic-ness to it. If GM continued development of it's Northstar V8's I would appreciate them just the same. It's not all about hp/liter hp/weight or hp/dollar (Ferrari?) Sometimes it's not even about hp at all. Subaru's NA boxer motors barely make 170hp but it's their personality that makes them desirable. BMW inline 6's are far from the most powerful engines, but their smoothness and linear powerband is unrivaled.
I dunno why everyone is getting so bent out of shape.
Fanboys will continue to exist everywhere for everything and anything. I currently own a BMW and one of my friends was a Mustang guy. He bought an 08 GT and would constantly rag on my "euro garbage". He ended up flipping his Mustang over going 30mph. In 2010 when the body style's changed he said he hated them. I on the other hand liked them more. Then when the 5.0 came out I ended up liking Mustangs more than he does, but I digress....
My point is that the type of person to talk garbage about a brand solely based on name is the type of person that has many flaws in their way of thinking, and usually has bad judgment. The sort of judgment that allows you to flip a car over at 30mph.
The appeal of the 5.0 is it's sophistication. There is a sense of exotic-ness to it. If GM continued development of it's Northstar V8's I would appreciate them just the same. It's not all about hp/liter hp/weight or hp/dollar (Ferrari?) Sometimes it's not even about hp at all. Subaru's NA boxer motors barely make 170hp but it's their personality that makes them desirable. BMW inline 6's are far from the most powerful engines, but their smoothness and linear powerband is unrivaled.
I dunno why everyone is getting so bent out of shape.
I'd like to run one with similar power to me on the street. I guarantee I would beat them. I dont have the best track times because our tracks suck *** out here and my DA is usually +2000-+3000. I've beaten local guys with KB Cobras that make a nice amount more than I do. I believe these motors are very impressive as I like Fords as well as Chevy's. In fact my dad has an 03' Cobra and an 04 ZO6. Either way I believe my raw TQ would be the main factor in the race. Hopefully I run into someone with around my HP so I can run em'.
So I guess a lot of you guys use your cars to tow with, with all this complaining about not having useable power. That has to be the worst argument against this engine; the graph doesn't go low enough, but I'm sure it's making around 300tq at 2000rpm. What more do you need?? You are acting like it has the power band of a 1.6L 500hp turbo'd vtakkk Honda. I honestly don't get how you think that is a good excuse to hate on this engine, unless you use your car as a stump puller.
Another thing to remember is that this engine is brand new, not like the LS3 that is basically an updated LS1, and has been out for a few years too. Give it another year or two for the aftermarket to play with it, then you can start bitching about it sucking compared to the LS3 (although, 500whp is already DAMN good).
Another thing to remember is that this engine is brand new, not like the LS3 that is basically an updated LS1, and has been out for a few years too. Give it another year or two for the aftermarket to play with it, then you can start bitching about it sucking compared to the LS3 (although, 500whp is already DAMN good).
Another thing to remember is that this engine is brand new, not like the LS3 that is basically an updated LS1, and has been out for a few years too. Give it another year or two for the aftermarket to play with it, then you can start bitching about it sucking compared to the LS3 (although, 500whp is already DAMN good).
im sure it will have good track times to back it up they have already been in the 11's.
i kno tq helps a lot in getting the car moving from a roll or off the line. sense every one thinks it dosnt have enough the ls cars should race and shift at 4800 or a 2 gear pull where its making more tq..who needs 7000rpm's at the track or a high way race. i race at 3200 where i have 500ft and 450+hp
i kno tq helps a lot in getting the car moving from a roll or off the line. sense every one thinks it dosnt have enough the ls cars should race and shift at 4800 or a 2 gear pull where its making more tq..who needs 7000rpm's at the track or a high way race. i race at 3200 where i have 500ft and 450+hp
Major architecture has been around since 1993, it's nothing new. It's just evolving a little further than it was. This isn't to say it's not impressive, but people are making it like the 5.0 is revolutionary and completely new. The variable cam timing is awesome and really does the trick, but it has its roots in modular dohc stuff that has been around for nearly 20 years.
