Why the ms3 is no good for the street!
Thread Starter
9 Second Club
iTrader: (21)
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,240
Likes: 1
From: sacramento, CA
some of you guys just dont get it.... your not always at WOT... First drive your MS3 car on the street, it drives awesomwe with a good tune, drive it normally dont race from stop light to stop light, then go get in a smaller cam car with more mid range and then it will make sense to you. not all of you have had the chance to drive a smaller cammed car vs and big cammed car... it is def different.
TECH Regular
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 444
Likes: 0
From: Westampton, NJ
Thats why i got myself an "average" sized cam...kinda does everything well. I agree with what NicD was saying completely. All these guys coming in here to defend their MS3 are wasting their time IMO. If its what you like then go for it...some people are willing to deal with certain drivability issues for that high end rush. Personally i like my 231/234 cam, especially since my car weighs 3700lbs...i need the tq to get the car moving off the line. If i had a Corvette or a stripper F-bod i could probably get away with something a bit larger.
So what is a good low end to mid range tq number? I keep hearing about big cams don't have it but What is the good number and @ what rpms?
Makes it hard to prove a point and decide which route to go when theres nothing to compare with.
Makes it hard to prove a point and decide which route to go when theres nothing to compare with.
I don't think that's a good way to go about it, it's more like "no matter how much or how little torque any particular car makes, a smaller cam will bring that torque on sooner"
I haven't made a real decision on what size cam I want to run as this is my first LS series motor and experience but there are some good points in this thread. I guess the real thing to do before deciding is find out What the intended use of the vehicle would be!
Im thinking like some others in this thread, it shouldn't matter if my powerband is shifted lower as long as I gear my car for the Bigger cam's powerband because the gears act as the equalizer right?
Thats why I was asking to see more about this tq sooner idea as my car will not be a DD or a track queen it will be a weekend warrior so i don't know if I should focus my attention on a smaller cam or go with a larger cam and keep the car geared to get it in it's powerband as quick as possible.
For daily drving and cruising in downtown and such, id prefer to be able to keep that rpm range lower. For a weekend warrior, i'd go 24x duration and 4.11s or better 
Stock cams peak torque @4,000 or so, MS3's peak torque @4,800. I don't think that is a huge difference moving the power range up 800 rpm. Sorry but I still can't see how HUGE and this cam is.
Why would you buy a car that goes fast just to talk about how great it drives around at 2,000 rpm.
It's a sports car, they make noise and vibrate.
Why would you buy a car that goes fast just to talk about how great it drives around at 2,000 rpm.
It's a sports car, they make noise and vibrate.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,251
Likes: 0
From: Tuscaloosa, AL.
Stock cams peak torque @4,000 or so, MS3's peak torque @4,800. I don't think that is a huge difference moving the power range up 800 rpm. Sorry but I still can't see how HUGE and this cam is.
Why would you buy a car that goes fast just to talk about how great it drives around at 2,000 rpm.
It's a sports car, they make noise and vibrate.
Why would you buy a car that goes fast just to talk about how great it drives around at 2,000 rpm.
It's a sports car, they make noise and vibrate.
Ah, your right... screw it. 800 RPM isn't anythin so instead of idleing at 800RPM, well set it at 1600RPM. Hell why not set the Rev limiter at 7600 instead of 6800. Im sure the motor won't notice a mesely additional 800RPMs?
800 rpms is huge. In my car, it is the difference between being mannered on the road and blowing other people's ear drums off.
The reason you want bottom end torque is so you can drive normally around town instead of snailing around like a hybrid.
LS1 Tech Stories
The Best V8 Stories One Small Block at Time
6 Common C5 Corvette Failures and What's Involved In Repairing Them
Pouria Savadkouei
Retro Modern Bandit Pontiac Trans AM Comes With Burt Reynolds' Autograph
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Greatest Cadillac V Series Performance Models Ever, Ranked
Pouria Savadkouei
Top 10 Most Powerful Chevy Trucks Ever Made!
Hennessey's New Supercharged Silverado ZR2 Has 700 HP
Verdad Gallardo
Coachbuilt N2A Anteros Is an LS2-Powered C6 Corvette In Italian Clothes
Verdad Gallardo
Awesome K5 Blazer Restomod Comes With C7 Corvette Power
Verdad Gallardo
10 Camaros You Should Never Buy
10 LS Engine Myths That Refuse to Die
Verdad Gallardo I'm sure the MS3 makes no torque and it won't have enough power to drive around at part throttle around town.
Also the MS3 can idle at the stock rpm as well, our 282/290@.050 solid roller idles less than 1,600 rpm. I'm sure you know that since you are obviously a cam expert when your cam is a whole 7* less in duration, also the MS3 doesn't rev to 7,600, so your reply is pretty much useless information.
Like a lot of people on here who talk about stuff they haven't used, unless you have had a cam that is as big or bigger than the MS3 you like a lot of other people wouldn't know how it drives.
Also the MS3 can idle at the stock rpm as well, our 282/290@.050 solid roller idles less than 1,600 rpm. I'm sure you know that since you are obviously a cam expert when your cam is a whole 7* less in duration, also the MS3 doesn't rev to 7,600, so your reply is pretty much useless information.
Like a lot of people on here who talk about stuff they haven't used, unless you have had a cam that is as big or bigger than the MS3 you like a lot of other people wouldn't know how it drives.
Last edited by RAGENZ28; May 10, 2008 at 08:25 PM.
I'm sure the MS3 makes no torque and it won't have enough power to drive around at part throttle around town.
Also the MS3 can idle at the stock rpm as well, our 282/290@.050 solid roller idles less than 1,600 rpm. I'm sure you know that since you are obviously a cam expert when your cam is a whole 7* less in duration, also the MS3 doesn't rev to 7,600, so your reply is pretty much useless information.
Like a lot of people on here who talk about stuff they haven't used, unless you have had a cam that is as big or bigger than the MS3 you like a lot of other people wouldn't know how it drives.
Also the MS3 can idle at the stock rpm as well, our 282/290@.050 solid roller idles less than 1,600 rpm. I'm sure you know that since you are obviously a cam expert when your cam is a whole 7* less in duration, also the MS3 doesn't rev to 7,600, so your reply is pretty much useless information.
Like a lot of people on here who talk about stuff they haven't used, unless you have had a cam that is as big or bigger than the MS3 you like a lot of other people wouldn't know how it drives.
1,000 to 2,500 is a part throttle cruising range, who cares how much torque it makes there.
Are you towing a boat or pulling out tree stumps?
A 100% bone stock LSX motor doesn't make peak torque until 4,000 rpm or more so what's this BS about low range power.
Plain and simple, the BIGGEST cams make the MOST power.
Stop blaming a camshaft because you people don't know how to buy the right parts to make something work in the rpm range it was intended to produce power in.
Are you towing a boat or pulling out tree stumps?
A 100% bone stock LSX motor doesn't make peak torque until 4,000 rpm or more so what's this BS about low range power.
Plain and simple, the BIGGEST cams make the MOST power.
Stop blaming a camshaft because you people don't know how to buy the right parts to make something work in the rpm range it was intended to produce power in.
Thread Starter
9 Second Club
iTrader: (21)
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,240
Likes: 1
From: sacramento, CA
ummmm... when did anybody blame the camshaft? i know i didnt... i like the way my runs and im sure you would too
i have driven large, medium, small, and stock cammed cars. ranging from a4 to a3 to 6 spd. i have to say, with an m6 the smaller the cam the better for *normal driving. none of the mentioned cars were unruly or a pain to drive, some just better than others. a big cam requires a lot more attention in a stick car, plain and simple. of course it will seem like a bigger pain in the *** with direct drive and the ability to go below 2,000 rpm without stalling up upon accel.
i am doing a h/c swap this summer on the trans am. it's an m6. the car will have to be *easy to drive because my wife will enjoy it as well. sticking with 342 gears and ls7 clutch. i figure high(er) compression and a smallish cam will make better numbers than a donkey dick cam and i will lose no driveability. the car will still make power and much more tq than even the stock cam in the low-mid range. it's all about setup. if you're going to throw a nastyass cam in an otherwise stockish car - yeah, it's going to suck for everything but wot. use your heads people. the OP is only stating that his ms3 has "no torque" down low, which i fail to see where he'd notice it unless he drives around with the converter locked all the time.
torque doesn't win races.
hp doesn't come easy.
i am doing a h/c swap this summer on the trans am. it's an m6. the car will have to be *easy to drive because my wife will enjoy it as well. sticking with 342 gears and ls7 clutch. i figure high(er) compression and a smallish cam will make better numbers than a donkey dick cam and i will lose no driveability. the car will still make power and much more tq than even the stock cam in the low-mid range. it's all about setup. if you're going to throw a nastyass cam in an otherwise stockish car - yeah, it's going to suck for everything but wot. use your heads people. the OP is only stating that his ms3 has "no torque" down low, which i fail to see where he'd notice it unless he drives around with the converter locked all the time.
torque doesn't win races.
hp doesn't come easy.
Blame the camshaft? Obviously when the post was started "why the ms3 is no good for the street"
To the other two know it all's, if you can't respect someones opinion or be ok with someone not agreeing with your almighty infinite knowledge and feel the need to try to insult someone, you can kiss my ***
The MS3 isn't some huge cam with a whole 237* of duration, that peaks around 6,400, call any engine builder and tell them you want an all out race cam and they are not going to spec you an MS3, it's a street performance cam.
If you can't drive around with that cam in you car without stalling it maybe you need to learn to drive or get it tuned. If you don't like how the MS3 drives and want to have something that makes a lot of power from idle to 3,000 rpm then why in the hell would you buy a cam with a designed operating range of 2,300-6,800.
If I am so ignorant then why are people complaining about the street manners of a cam designed to make most of its power from 4,000 to 6,500. It says performance camshaft with rough idle, custom tuning required..DUH
Blame the camshaft? Obviously when the post was started "why the ms3 is no good for the street"
To the other two know it all's, if you can't respect someones opinion or be ok with someone not agreeing with your almighty infinite knowledge and feel the need to try to insult someone, you can kiss my ***
The MS3 isn't some huge cam with a whole 237* of duration, that peaks around 6,400, call any engine builder and tell them you want an all out race cam and they are not going to spec you an MS3, it's a street performance cam.
If you can't drive around with that cam in you car without stalling it maybe you need to learn to drive or get it tuned. If you don't like how the MS3 drives and want to have something that makes a lot of power from idle to 3,000 rpm then why in the hell would you buy a cam with a designed operating range of 2,300-6,800.
If I am so ignorant then why are people complaining about the street manners of a cam designed to make most of its power from 4,000 to 6,500. It says performance camshaft with rough idle, custom tuning required..DUH
To the other two know it all's, if you can't respect someones opinion or be ok with someone not agreeing with your almighty infinite knowledge and feel the need to try to insult someone, you can kiss my ***
The MS3 isn't some huge cam with a whole 237* of duration, that peaks around 6,400, call any engine builder and tell them you want an all out race cam and they are not going to spec you an MS3, it's a street performance cam.
If you can't drive around with that cam in you car without stalling it maybe you need to learn to drive or get it tuned. If you don't like how the MS3 drives and want to have something that makes a lot of power from idle to 3,000 rpm then why in the hell would you buy a cam with a designed operating range of 2,300-6,800.
If I am so ignorant then why are people complaining about the street manners of a cam designed to make most of its power from 4,000 to 6,500. It says performance camshaft with rough idle, custom tuning required..DUH
Okay, we all agree, youre such a ******* badass that no cam is too big for you cause you have ***** of steel. You should just run a 360/360 with 1" lift, and if it doesnt drive worth a ****, I dont wanna hear any bitchin
honestly, I stopped reading your post after you tried to say it wasnt a big cam again.
Okay, we all agree, youre such a ******* badass that no cam is too big for you cause you have ***** of steel. You should just run a 360/360 with 1" lift, and if it doesnt drive worth a ****, I dont wanna hear any bitchin
Okay, we all agree, youre such a ******* badass that no cam is too big for you cause you have ***** of steel. You should just run a 360/360 with 1" lift, and if it doesnt drive worth a ****, I dont wanna hear any bitchin
I'm not the one bitching about the cam, last time I checked I wasn't the one crying this cam is so horrible. Obviously you don't know what a big cam is if you think 237@.050 is some kind of pro stock derived cam profile - HAHA.
If you can comprehend this high level of mathematics called "averaging", a stock cam 200@.050 duration and a race cam profile, we'll say 290@.050, you'd notice that 237*.050 isn't even 50% of a full race cam.
Go back to reading hotrod and watching the speed channel poser *** tech guru.
I'll be at the LA Invasion Monday Memorial day at Fontana, look forward to meeting some people that don't have their heads up their asses
Thread Starter
9 Second Club
iTrader: (21)
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,240
Likes: 1
From: sacramento, CA
you are a straight ******* idiot... if you actually were able to comprehend what you are reading you would understand why this post was made.
First like I have said I think 3 times in this damn thread.... I am not complaining about the MS3.... Mine drives great on the street because of a great tune and I love driving it on the street....
Second.... go stick a 260+ duration cam or even mid to high 250's in a 346 with stock style heads and see what it does.... oh wait..? lol
We are not talking big cube small blocks with carbs nor big blocks.... this is a 346ci ls1 stock headed motor, a pretty big difference
I have done those motors and yes I have a 270+ cam in one of those motors.... but once again we are not talking about those
it is a 346 ci ls1 and for a daily driver a cam with less duration would work BETTER for all around driving and that is the point of this thread and to help people learn.
I will not be at LA invasion but if you ever in the norcal area(sac) give me a call and we will shoot the **** and try to help you realize what my post is about... bring a car too
thanks
First like I have said I think 3 times in this damn thread.... I am not complaining about the MS3.... Mine drives great on the street because of a great tune and I love driving it on the street....
Second.... go stick a 260+ duration cam or even mid to high 250's in a 346 with stock style heads and see what it does.... oh wait..? lol
We are not talking big cube small blocks with carbs nor big blocks.... this is a 346ci ls1 stock headed motor, a pretty big difference
I have done those motors and yes I have a 270+ cam in one of those motors.... but once again we are not talking about those
it is a 346 ci ls1 and for a daily driver a cam with less duration would work BETTER for all around driving and that is the point of this thread and to help people learn.
I will not be at LA invasion but if you ever in the norcal area(sac) give me a call and we will shoot the **** and try to help you realize what my post is about... bring a car too
thanks