New owner - numbers seem low - opinions?
10-29-2022, 01:50 PM
#1
New owner - numbers seem low - opinions? I've recently acquired a 2K Trans Am. Has some work done to it, also has issues, runs poorly and has a vibration to it. Trying to rid this bird of the lice I took it in for dyno tuning. Numbers seem low, but I'm also new to this so trying to figure out if there's issues and if so where they are. IF there's bottlenecks what they are and how to resolve them.
383 Eagle short block, H beams, Diamond pistons of an unknown compression ratio. Btr valvetrain, stage 4 cam , 853s that should be ported/polished, Long tubes to Borla cat back. Weiand intake. Throttle body appears larger then stock, but exactly what it is isn't known yet. I know little about the fuel system, numbers on the injectors come back stock ls1 24lb.
What should be expected out of a setup like this???
383 Eagle short block, H beams, Diamond pistons of an unknown compression ratio. Btr valvetrain, stage 4 cam , 853s that should be ported/polished, Long tubes to Borla cat back. Weiand intake. Throttle body appears larger then stock, but exactly what it is isn't known yet. I know little about the fuel system, numbers on the injectors come back stock ls1 24lb.
What should be expected out of a setup like this???
10-29-2022, 02:05 PM
#2
TECH Senior Member
You're getting exactly what should be expexted from an engine with many mods but still using stock injectors; garbage numbers.
Evaluate EXACTLY what you actually HAVE, assess where improvements or adjustments are needed, and go from there.
Evaluate EXACTLY what you actually HAVE, assess where improvements or adjustments are needed, and go from there.
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Biebs (10-30-2022)
10-29-2022, 02:41 PM
#3
Was hoping for the amount of loot it costs for dyno tuning that maybe they could have shed some light on potential issues (like stock injectors) but nah, they pretty much just said it is what it is, no recommendations were mentioned.
Was under the impression stock injectors would be fine well into mid 400s? Maybe not?
Was under the impression stock injectors would be fine well into mid 400s? Maybe not?
10-29-2022, 03:30 PM
#4
Rule of thumb is never get on a dyno without the car being in tip top condition. It's literally one of the hardest things you can do to the car. No tire slip, 150 mph tire speed, almost no air flow, it's brutal. Some cars don't survive the experience. Troubleshoot in your garage or take it for a drive instead.
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G Atsma (10-29-2022)
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G Atsma (10-29-2022)
10-29-2022, 04:06 PM
#6
Any codes? SES light on?
FWIW - just a heads up.
None of the fbody LS1's came with 24 pound injectors. Might want to verify what they are etc.
98's had 28's
99-00 had 26
01-02 had 28.8
The 26's with good fuel pump & clean filter will support 430 to 450whp normally and the 28's 450+.....that's maxed out or close to it.
None of the fbody LS1's came with 24 pound injectors. Might want to verify what they are etc.
98's had 28's
99-00 had 26
01-02 had 28.8
The 26's with good fuel pump & clean filter will support 430 to 450whp normally and the 28's 450+.....that's maxed out or close to it.
10-29-2022, 08:40 PM
#7
I would have loved to have a shot at the dyno with a tip top car, but I bought a poorly running car that had a cam swap and a "street" tune to get it to a real tune. I would have loved to try to iron out any issues prior to tuning but when I stuck my Verus on the thing it looked like a zombie. O2s weren't doing anything. I asked the guy tuning it how the hell anyone's supposed to diag tuned cars and he just laughed, kinda hinted towards turning the thing back to closer to stock, then back again after diag.
12555894 is the number off the injector. Maybe my parts guy is full of crap. He came up with 24lb. I understand while the car may have never came with 24s the number leads to stock ls1 24lb.
Finally someone agrees that the tuner should have had an idea what the injectors were doing based on duty cycle - IF the things are too small shouldn't that have been brought up, discussed, pointed out or just questioned???
There's an Rx7 running around here with spitting image of this engine (aside from smaller cam) and I think there's 42 lbs in his......
I assume the injectors are an issue. Only issue? I'd never be that lucky, but one thing at a time. I'm happy to have progressed from something that was iffy to even drive to something I can at least go grab the first few gears without white knuckles. Turns out too long of driveshaft can cause some very interesting handling concerns.
12555894 is the number off the injector. Maybe my parts guy is full of crap. He came up with 24lb. I understand while the car may have never came with 24s the number leads to stock ls1 24lb.
Finally someone agrees that the tuner should have had an idea what the injectors were doing based on duty cycle - IF the things are too small shouldn't that have been brought up, discussed, pointed out or just questioned???
There's an Rx7 running around here with spitting image of this engine (aside from smaller cam) and I think there's 42 lbs in his......
I assume the injectors are an issue. Only issue? I'd never be that lucky, but one thing at a time. I'm happy to have progressed from something that was iffy to even drive to something I can at least go grab the first few gears without white knuckles. Turns out too long of driveshaft can cause some very interesting handling concerns.
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10-30-2022, 06:36 AM
#8
I'd expect ~430 to 450 whp depending on when the 26# injectors max out, go static and are done if everything else is in order.
~460 whp with more injector with the Weiand intake as it's likely the next bottle neck unless really well ported and that's assuming more injectors ~42# etc
~475+ whp with a 102 Fast LSXR port by Tony Mamo
FWIW - That's the factory 26# (55 psi LS1 fuel pressure) pound injector for 99-00 that came new with the car. It's rated at 24 at lower fuel pressure etc.
See post #2 by FincInjectors vendor Corvette Forum
With your ported 853's, BTR S4 etc your 383 will probably max those #26 injectors out with ease. Folks on BTR's site mention ~495 whp LS1 with TFS-215 heads.
The BTR CAMSHAFT - LS1/LS2 - N/A STAGE 4 233/248 .630"/.615" 111.5+2.5 has ~17.5 degrees of overlap (wow!) - BTR says it's capable of 460+ whp with "quality heads".
That cam may not be a while lot of fun to drive around with if the car is a driver. Some tuners will have issues dialing in a cam with ~17.5 degrees of overlap to drive well in a 383 and some will be able to do a pretty decent job. Definitely a wild card.
Know any details about the Weiand intake? Does it have any porting etc? Post #15 weiand-lingenfelter mentions the intake needs some work for best matching etc. It had a room for porting but was pretty unpopular back in the day when new became a stock LS6 intake was about as good as an unported Weiand.
~460 whp with more injector with the Weiand intake as it's likely the next bottle neck unless really well ported and that's assuming more injectors ~42# etc
~475+ whp with a 102 Fast LSXR port by Tony Mamo
See post #2 by FincInjectors vendor Corvette Forum
With your ported 853's, BTR S4 etc your 383 will probably max those #26 injectors out with ease. Folks on BTR's site mention ~495 whp LS1 with TFS-215 heads.
The BTR CAMSHAFT - LS1/LS2 - N/A STAGE 4 233/248 .630"/.615" 111.5+2.5 has ~17.5 degrees of overlap (wow!) - BTR says it's capable of 460+ whp with "quality heads".
That cam may not be a while lot of fun to drive around with if the car is a driver. Some tuners will have issues dialing in a cam with ~17.5 degrees of overlap to drive well in a 383 and some will be able to do a pretty decent job. Definitely a wild card.
Know any details about the Weiand intake? Does it have any porting etc? Post #15 weiand-lingenfelter mentions the intake needs some work for best matching etc. It had a room for porting but was pretty unpopular back in the day when new became a stock LS6 intake was about as good as an unported Weiand.
Last edited by 99 Black Bird T/A; 10-30-2022 at 07:14 AM.
10-30-2022, 12:01 PM
#9
I'd expect ~430 to 450 whp depending on when the 26# injectors max out, go static and are done if everything else is in order.
~460 whp with more injector with the Weiand intake as it's likely the next bottle neck unless really well ported and that's assuming more injectors ~42# etc
~475+ whp with a 102 Fast LSXR port by Tony Mamo
FWIW - That's the factory 26# (55 psi LS1 fuel pressure) pound injector for 99-00 that came new with the car. It's rated at 24 at lower fuel pressure etc.
See post #2 by FincInjectors vendor Corvette Forum
With your ported 853's, BTR S4 etc your 383 will probably max those #26 injectors out with ease. Folks on BTR's site mention ~495 whp LS1 with TFS-215 heads.
The BTR CAMSHAFT - LS1/LS2 - N/A STAGE 4 233/248 .630"/.615" 111.5+2.5 has ~17.5 degrees of overlap (wow!) - BTR says it's capable of 460+ whp with "quality heads".
That cam may not be a while lot of fun to drive around with if the car is a driver. Some tuners will have issues dialing in a cam with ~17.5 degrees of overlap to drive well in a 383 and some will be able to do a pretty decent job. Definitely a wild card.
Know any details about the Weiand intake? Does it have any porting etc? Post #15 weiand-lingenfelter mentions the intake needs some work for best matching etc. It had a room for porting but was pretty unpopular back in the day when new became a stock LS6 intake was about as good as an unported Weiand.
~460 whp with more injector with the Weiand intake as it's likely the next bottle neck unless really well ported and that's assuming more injectors ~42# etc
~475+ whp with a 102 Fast LSXR port by Tony Mamo
FWIW - That's the factory 26# (55 psi LS1 fuel pressure) pound injector for 99-00 that came new with the car. It's rated at 24 at lower fuel pressure etc.
See post #2 by FincInjectors vendor Corvette Forum
With your ported 853's, BTR S4 etc your 383 will probably max those #26 injectors out with ease. Folks on BTR's site mention ~495 whp LS1 with TFS-215 heads.
The BTR CAMSHAFT - LS1/LS2 - N/A STAGE 4 233/248 .630"/.615" 111.5+2.5 has ~17.5 degrees of overlap (wow!) - BTR says it's capable of 460+ whp with "quality heads".
That cam may not be a while lot of fun to drive around with if the car is a driver. Some tuners will have issues dialing in a cam with ~17.5 degrees of overlap to drive well in a 383 and some will be able to do a pretty decent job. Definitely a wild card.
Know any details about the Weiand intake? Does it have any porting etc? Post #15 weiand-lingenfelter mentions the intake needs some work for best matching etc. It had a room for porting but was pretty unpopular back in the day when new became a stock LS6 intake was about as good as an unported Weiand.
I do not know anything about this intake. I haven't been into anything yet, but based on the info provided above it sounds to me like it's time for a little exploratory surgery and likely time to get the carbides out. IS this process pretty self explanatory or is there some rocket surgery aspects? I imagine just don't take too much off right?
I'm under the assumption there should be a significant gain going to Trick Flow heads vs what's on the car now. IF I go ahead with this even a ported Weiand is probably still going to bottle neck I'm assuming? With those heads it prolly really needs a Fast intake on it? What about throttle body? Is there a proven go to won't need to upgrade again?
Safe to assume the wise move with the injectors would be to go to 42lb?
Thank you for the replies - I appreciate the advise, insight, and link. I did not see the weiand mentioned in the little digging I've done on intakes here.
10-30-2022, 12:40 PM
#10
* A dyno pull is just a dyno pull. The car gets strapped to dyno, maybe an O2 sensor is shoved into the tailpipe, and the car gets run "as is" about 3 times. Then they hand you a piece of paper with torque & power vs. speed that you post on the internet to brag or complain. That might be $50 - $150 depending where you live.
* A dyno tune is more than just dyno pulls. It's a tuning sessions where they hook up a laptop to your ECM and start programming the engine & trans ECM. Data channels are recorded and used to make decisions. The dyno is used to put the car in certain driving conditions and take measurements of torque to help make decisions. This process sometimes goes on for hours, and might cost $500 - $800 depending where you live. Cost goes up by hourly charge rate if they have to troubleshoot stuff.
It's as expensive as heck if you bring in a car that's messed up and they have to troubleshoot. Best to get your junk together on your own and then show up for a final tune. For people that can't do a lot on their own, it's probably cheaper to just let a shop build the car their way than try to figure out what's wrong with it after building it your way.
I drove my junk for 8 months fixing stuff, sorting stuff before I let a professional tune it on dyno. There was no point going before that, it wasn't ready for prime time yet.
Last edited by QwkTrip; 10-30-2022 at 04:20 PM.
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Biebs (10-30-2022)
10-30-2022, 01:23 PM
#11
I do not know anything about this intake. I haven't been into anything yet, but based on the info provided above it sounds to me like it's time for a little exploratory surgery and likely time to get the carbides out. IS this process pretty self explanatory or is there some rocket surgery aspects? I imagine just don't take too much off right?
If you want max hp buy the Fast intake from Tony Mamo and have him port it. The 92mm intake & TB is a little easier for many tuners to dial in for good driveablity than the 102 intake & 102 TB.
the assumption there should be a significant gain going to Trick Flow heads vs what's on the car now. IF I go ahead with this even a ported Weiand is probably still going to bottle neck I'm assuming? With those heads it prolly really needs a Fast intake on it? What about throttle body? Is there a proven go to won't need to upgrade again?
An easy EPS recipe for ~470+ whp is the Trick Flow 215's, EPS 226/234 113 LSA cam & Fast 92 intake w/92mm TB. Well proven on LS1's.
Your 383 could use more cam etc and still drive well. I'd contact Geoff at Engine Power Systems for an ideally matched set up. I'd want to keep the overlap to no more than ~8 degrees in a driver 383 LS1. Let Geoff know what you're looking for and he'll deliver.
If you want max performance with best drive ability contact Tony at Mamo Motorsports. You'll spend some coin and end up with a 500+ whp 383 LS1 that will be just awesome! Tony delivers as well just let him know what's desired.
Safe to assume the wise move with the injectors would be to go to 42lb?
Most likely but I'd talk with Geoff & Tony mentioned above and decide on a course of action before selecting new fuel injectors. If you want 430+ whp there will be a need for new injectors etc.
Just sorting car to make a nice driver and swapping cams to something like the Summit Ghost cam, adding a Fast 92, keeping the #26's and getting ~420 to 440 whp may work.
(I ran #26's in my 99T/A's 418 whp heads & cam set up for 15 years & 132,000+ miles with zero issues.)
FWIW - if my car, I'd go with:
1) Mamo set up if funds allow
2) Geoff EPS set up with Trick Flows or if keeping current heads
Thank you for the replies - I appreciate the advise, insight, and link. I did not see the weiand mentioned in the little digging I've done on intakes here.
I hope the car sorts out with ease.
Keep us in the loop with whatever course of action you decide on.
10-30-2022, 01:55 PM
#12
On The Tree
What are the numbers you got??
10-30-2022, 02:25 PM
#13
This is where things get interesting..... The decent numbers are from 2 owners ago. The not even 400 are the numbers from when I took it in and was told by the tuner that he thought it was a stock bottom end. After some discussion with the previous owner based on pics he has of the bottom end I believe its the 383 its supposed to be. Just don't understand why it doesn't put down decent numbers......
10-30-2022, 02:46 PM
#14
Sounds like someone's idea of a near max effort LS1 383 at some point in the car's history. The good news is you have a 383 LS1 with ported heads to work with in my experience that can make for a sweet driver!
Honestly, the Weiand proved expensive to port because it's harder to reach in places. The Fast intakes blew it out of the water. My best suggestion is get a Fast 92 intake and Warr 92mm TB and sell the Weiand & TB, regards of what other changes are made for the car.
If you want max hp buy the Fast intake from Tony Mamo and have him port it. The 92mm intake & TB is a little easier for many tuners to dial in for good driveablity than the 102 intake & 102 TB.
The Trick Flow's will have more potential but the ported stock heads on the car are probably capable of ~440 to 460 whp with the right cam and a ported Fast 92 intake. They are very capable of making a nice driving fun car.
An easy EPS recipe for ~470+ whp is the Trick Flow 215's, EPS 226/234 113 LSA cam & Fast 92 intake w/92mm TB. Well proven on LS1's.
Your 383 could use more cam etc and still drive well. I'd contact Geoff at Engine Power Systems for an ideally matched set up. I'd want to keep the overlap to no more than ~8 degrees in a driver 383 LS1. Let Geoff know what you're looking for and he'll deliver.
If you want max performance with best drive ability contact Tony at Mamo Motorsports. You'll spend some coin and end up with a 500+ whp 383 LS1 that will be just awesome! Tony delivers as well just let him know what's desired.
The first tuner that worked on my 383 LS1 w/TEA LS6 S2.5 heads, 229/229 cam etc endlessly complained the #42 injectors were TOO BIG for my 465whp set up and I should gotten 36# or 39# injectors. The 2nd tuner sorted the car and said the 42# were OK but a little big.
Most likely but I'd talk with Geoff & Tony mentioned above and decide on a course of action before selecting new fuel injectors. If you want 430+ whp there will be a need for new injectors etc.
Just sorting car to make a nice driver and swapping cams to something like the Summit Ghost cam, adding a Fast 92, keeping the #26's and getting ~420 to 440 whp may work.
(I ran #26's in my 99T/A's 418 whp heads & cam set up for 15 years & 132,000+ miles with zero issues.)
FWIW - if my car, I'd go with:
1) Mamo set up if funds allow
2) Geoff EPS set up with Trick Flows or if keeping current heads
Happy to share my .02 worth collected from 20+ years of owning four LS cars, stock, bolt on, HCI & strokers.
I hope the car sorts out with ease.
Keep us in the loop with whatever course of action you decide on.
Honestly, the Weiand proved expensive to port because it's harder to reach in places. The Fast intakes blew it out of the water. My best suggestion is get a Fast 92 intake and Warr 92mm TB and sell the Weiand & TB, regards of what other changes are made for the car.
If you want max hp buy the Fast intake from Tony Mamo and have him port it. The 92mm intake & TB is a little easier for many tuners to dial in for good driveablity than the 102 intake & 102 TB.
The Trick Flow's will have more potential but the ported stock heads on the car are probably capable of ~440 to 460 whp with the right cam and a ported Fast 92 intake. They are very capable of making a nice driving fun car.
An easy EPS recipe for ~470+ whp is the Trick Flow 215's, EPS 226/234 113 LSA cam & Fast 92 intake w/92mm TB. Well proven on LS1's.
Your 383 could use more cam etc and still drive well. I'd contact Geoff at Engine Power Systems for an ideally matched set up. I'd want to keep the overlap to no more than ~8 degrees in a driver 383 LS1. Let Geoff know what you're looking for and he'll deliver.
If you want max performance with best drive ability contact Tony at Mamo Motorsports. You'll spend some coin and end up with a 500+ whp 383 LS1 that will be just awesome! Tony delivers as well just let him know what's desired.
The first tuner that worked on my 383 LS1 w/TEA LS6 S2.5 heads, 229/229 cam etc endlessly complained the #42 injectors were TOO BIG for my 465whp set up and I should gotten 36# or 39# injectors. The 2nd tuner sorted the car and said the 42# were OK but a little big.
Most likely but I'd talk with Geoff & Tony mentioned above and decide on a course of action before selecting new fuel injectors. If you want 430+ whp there will be a need for new injectors etc.
Just sorting car to make a nice driver and swapping cams to something like the Summit Ghost cam, adding a Fast 92, keeping the #26's and getting ~420 to 440 whp may work.
(I ran #26's in my 99T/A's 418 whp heads & cam set up for 15 years & 132,000+ miles with zero issues.)
FWIW - if my car, I'd go with:
1) Mamo set up if funds allow
2) Geoff EPS set up with Trick Flows or if keeping current heads
Happy to share my .02 worth collected from 20+ years of owning four LS cars, stock, bolt on, HCI & strokers.
I hope the car sorts out with ease.
Keep us in the loop with whatever course of action you decide on.
Goal to start was 500 whp. I thought buying a car in the mid 400s that just got a significantly bigger cam maybe it would be possible. Tuner laughed at the idea as did another local guy with a 383 that was shooting for 500 until he decided to sledgehammer his goal with a 7 liter. So I'm being led to believe its an unobtainable goal with what I have even with all the bugs worked out.
The problem with this car is it was bought to be a driver, NOT a project. I already have a project here that's been sitting for almost 20 years. With 3 little girls and a basement full of freshwater stingrays I don't have much free time. I work on cars for a living so don't really wanna work on them after work too.
10-30-2022, 02:50 PM
#15
TECH Senior Member
Did you buy this car sight unseen??
10-30-2022, 03:04 PM
#16
No, not necessarily. I'm not sure what services you paid for, your expectations seemed to be more aligned with a tuning session, not a basic dyno pull.
* A dyno pull is just a dyno pull. The car gets strapped to dyno, maybe an O2 sensor is shoved into the tailpipe, and the car gets run "as is" about 3 times. Then they hand you a piece of paper with torque & power vs. speed that you post on the internet to brag or complain. That might be $50 - $150 depending where you live.
* A dyno tune is more than just dyno pulls. It's a tuning sessions where they hook up a laptop to your ECM and start programming the engine & trans ECM. Data channels are recorded and used to make decisions. The dyno is used to put the car in certain driving conditions and take measurements of torque to help make decisions. This process sometimes goes on for hours, and might cost $500 - $800 depending where you live. Cost goes up by hourly charge rate if they have to troubleshoot stuff.
It's as expensive as heck if you bring in a car that's messed up and they have to troubleshoot. Best to get your junk together on your own and then show up for a final tune. For people that can't do a lot on their own, it's probably cheaper to just let a shop build the car their way than try to figure out what's wrong with it after building it your way.
I drove my car for 8 months fixing stuff, sorting stuff before I let a professional tune it on dyno. There was no point going before that, it wasn't ready for prime time yet.
* A dyno pull is just a dyno pull. The car gets strapped to dyno, maybe an O2 sensor is shoved into the tailpipe, and the car gets run "as is" about 3 times. Then they hand you a piece of paper with torque & power vs. speed that you post on the internet to brag or complain. That might be $50 - $150 depending where you live.
* A dyno tune is more than just dyno pulls. It's a tuning sessions where they hook up a laptop to your ECM and start programming the engine & trans ECM. Data channels are recorded and used to make decisions. The dyno is used to put the car in certain driving conditions and take measurements of torque to help make decisions. This process sometimes goes on for hours, and might cost $500 - $800 depending where you live. Cost goes up by hourly charge rate if they have to troubleshoot stuff.
It's as expensive as heck if you bring in a car that's messed up and they have to troubleshoot. Best to get your junk together on your own and then show up for a final tune. For people that can't do a lot on their own, it's probably cheaper to just let a shop build the car their way than try to figure out what's wrong with it after building it your way.
I drove my car for 8 months fixing stuff, sorting stuff before I let a professional tune it on dyno. There was no point going before that, it wasn't ready for prime time yet.
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G Atsma (10-30-2022)
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G Atsma (10-30-2022)
10-30-2022, 05:56 PM
#20
No, not necessarily. I'm not sure what services you paid for, your expectations seemed to be more aligned with a tuning session, not a basic dyno pull.
* A dyno pull is just a dyno pull. The car gets strapped to dyno, maybe an O2 sensor is shoved into the tailpipe, and the car gets run "as is" about 3 times. Then they hand you a piece of paper with torque & power vs. speed that you post on the internet to brag or complain. That might be $50 - $150 depending where you live.
* A dyno tune is more than just dyno pulls. It's a tuning sessions where they hook up a laptop to your ECM and start programming the engine & trans ECM. Data channels are recorded and used to make decisions. The dyno is used to put the car in certain driving conditions and take measurements of torque to help make decisions. This process sometimes goes on for hours, and might cost $500 - $800 depending where you live. Cost goes up by hourly charge rate if they have to troubleshoot stuff.
It's as expensive as heck if you bring in a car that's messed up and they have to troubleshoot. Best to get your junk together on your own and then show up for a final tune. For people that can't do a lot on their own, it's probably cheaper to just let a shop build the car their way than try to figure out what's wrong with it after building it your way.
I drove my junk for 8 months fixing stuff, sorting stuff before I let a professional tune it on dyno. There was no point going before that, it wasn't ready for prime time yet.
* A dyno pull is just a dyno pull. The car gets strapped to dyno, maybe an O2 sensor is shoved into the tailpipe, and the car gets run "as is" about 3 times. Then they hand you a piece of paper with torque & power vs. speed that you post on the internet to brag or complain. That might be $50 - $150 depending where you live.
* A dyno tune is more than just dyno pulls. It's a tuning sessions where they hook up a laptop to your ECM and start programming the engine & trans ECM. Data channels are recorded and used to make decisions. The dyno is used to put the car in certain driving conditions and take measurements of torque to help make decisions. This process sometimes goes on for hours, and might cost $500 - $800 depending where you live. Cost goes up by hourly charge rate if they have to troubleshoot stuff.
It's as expensive as heck if you bring in a car that's messed up and they have to troubleshoot. Best to get your junk together on your own and then show up for a final tune. For people that can't do a lot on their own, it's probably cheaper to just let a shop build the car their way than try to figure out what's wrong with it after building it your way.
I drove my junk for 8 months fixing stuff, sorting stuff before I let a professional tune it on dyno. There was no point going before that, it wasn't ready for prime time yet.