Set me straight on pump gas
05-26-2013, 01:08 PM
#161
actually, no that was a glass of regular pump gas with "10% ethanol". yes it was about 10% ethanol, but it also contained atleast 10% water. I don't know about you, but I don't like the idea of my gas being watered down.
this is why I am not understanding where the argument is coming in. I state the same facts about it, but in a more negative manner and everyone wants to jump my case about it. I have personally not seen anyone successfully run it. This has been my PERSONAL experience. Sure there are guys making lots of power on e85 on the internet. there are people making in excess of 1000whp on pump also. So trying to say it isn't possible to make good power on pump gas is an invalid argument.
In the end it all comes down to the tuning, which is what I said to begin with that seemed to **** everyone off. I am waiting on my injectors to arrive, so I can get back to the dyno and see what happens. luckily my dyno shop is just a few miles from the one station with e85 here. So I will be able to make pump gas pulls, and have some cans on e85 handy to swap
this is why I am not understanding where the argument is coming in. I state the same facts about it, but in a more negative manner and everyone wants to jump my case about it. I have personally not seen anyone successfully run it. This has been my PERSONAL experience. Sure there are guys making lots of power on e85 on the internet. there are people making in excess of 1000whp on pump also. So trying to say it isn't possible to make good power on pump gas is an invalid argument.
In the end it all comes down to the tuning, which is what I said to begin with that seemed to **** everyone off. I am waiting on my injectors to arrive, so I can get back to the dyno and see what happens. luckily my dyno shop is just a few miles from the one station with e85 here. So I will be able to make pump gas pulls, and have some cans on e85 handy to swap
05-26-2013, 03:06 PM
#162
ok gotcha. thought we were talking about e85. sounds like the place you get your gas from is having some issues. I mean all I ever see that seperates the tanks from the outside world is a manhole cover deal at some places. I wont fill up at a station that the truck has just visited. Stirs up all the **** at the bottom and although i have a -6 micron fiberglass element filter I am not about to do it anyways.
I dont think anyone is saying you cant make power on pump. Martin actually posted 4 results of cars he personally has first hand knowledge of making over 800 on pump gas and 3 had no methanol. I am sure each of those numbers he listed for the setups could be improved a bit with the addition of methanol or e85 due the the fact he could make the tune more aggressive.
I checked out your build, and thought its not my cup of tea, its still badass and I hope it runs like a raped ape. Id love to see you do a 93 octane tune then a e85 tune on your turbo truck to see the difference in the curve and power. itd prob live quite a while even with a moderately/ done right tune.
05-27-2013, 11:19 AM
#163
ok gotcha. thought we were talking about e85. sounds like the place you get your gas from is having some issues. I mean all I ever see that seperates the tanks from the outside world is a manhole cover deal at some places. I wont fill up at a station that the truck has just visited. Stirs up all the **** at the bottom and although i have a -6 micron fiberglass element filter I am not about to do it anyways.
I dont think anyone is saying you cant make power on pump. Martin actually posted 4 results of cars he personally has first hand knowledge of making over 800 on pump gas and 3 had no methanol. I am sure each of those numbers he listed for the setups could be improved a bit with the addition of methanol or e85 due the the fact he could make the tune more aggressive.
I checked out your build, and thought its not my cup of tea, its still badass and I hope it runs like a raped ape. Id love to see you do a 93 octane tune then a e85 tune on your turbo truck to see the difference in the curve and power. itd prob live quite a while even with a moderately/ done right tune.
I dont think anyone is saying you cant make power on pump. Martin actually posted 4 results of cars he personally has first hand knowledge of making over 800 on pump gas and 3 had no methanol. I am sure each of those numbers he listed for the setups could be improved a bit with the addition of methanol or e85 due the the fact he could make the tune more aggressive.
I checked out your build, and thought its not my cup of tea, its still badass and I hope it runs like a raped ape. Id love to see you do a 93 octane tune then a e85 tune on your turbo truck to see the difference in the curve and power. itd prob live quite a while even with a moderately/ done right tune.
05-28-2013, 09:28 AM
#165
On The Tree
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Well, I've been leaning away from the ls engine. I want my car to be a high hp, street car. All for show. I guess I want the big hp for the wow and cool factor. I'd rather not set my car up for e85 because we only have one station here in ct. And im not sure the quality. Can you switch back and forth from 93 to e85 with a fuel system that supports e85? Lost with what to do
05-28-2013, 10:34 AM
#166
9 Second Club
Well, I've been leaning away from the ls engine. I want my car to be a high hp, street car. All for show. I guess I want the big hp for the wow and cool factor. I'd rather not set my car up for e85 because we only have one station here in ct. And im not sure the quality. Can you switch back and forth from 93 to e85 with a fuel system that supports e85? Lost with what to do
If you want to use both, you need to use a control system that can make use of a flex fuel sensor. Then once tuned you can use E85, pump fuel or any combination of the two with ease.
05-28-2013, 11:54 AM
#168
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BTW do your tuner a solid and bring this
http://www.uline.com/BL_7012/Oil-Dri...g&gclsrc=aw.ds
05-28-2013, 01:51 PM
#169
soooooooooooooo you're going to lean it out, then add timing AND boost. This is gonna be awesome.
BTW do your tuner a solid and bring this
http://www.uline.com/BL_7012/Oil-Dri...g&gclsrc=aw.ds
BTW do your tuner a solid and bring this
http://www.uline.com/BL_7012/Oil-Dri...g&gclsrc=aw.ds
I don't have actual numbers to work with yet, so I will roughly estimate these to get the idea across.
lets say we tune with my injectors running at 80% duty cycle on pump gas and a WOT afr of 12.9:1 and timing accordingly. Lets say for round numbers sake it makes 600 whp at 15 psi
now, switch to e85, to make up the difference to make the 9.1 afr required by the e85, we much restrict airflow since adding fuel isn't an option. say we drop boost to 12 psi to get the afr correct. Then we add timing. What I am saying is that this setup would probably produce roughly the same ~600whp as the pump gas setup. At lower boost? yes. but using more fuel to do so.
05-28-2013, 01:59 PM
#170
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No, because this is the point I am proving. we will have to back down boost to bring the afr back to where it needs to be, but yes we will be able to get more aggressive with timing.
I don't have actual numbers to work with yet, so I will roughly estimate these to get the idea across.
lets say we tune with my injectors running at 80% duty cycle on pump gas and a WOT afr of 12.9:1 and timing accordingly. Lets say for round numbers sake it makes 600 whp at 15 psi
now, switch to e85, to make up the difference to make the 9.1 afr required by the e85, we much restrict airflow since adding fuel isn't an option. say we drop boost to 12 psi to get the afr correct. Then we add timing. What I am saying is that this setup would probably produce roughly the same ~600whp as the pump gas setup. At lower boost? yes. but using more fuel to do so.
I don't have actual numbers to work with yet, so I will roughly estimate these to get the idea across.
lets say we tune with my injectors running at 80% duty cycle on pump gas and a WOT afr of 12.9:1 and timing accordingly. Lets say for round numbers sake it makes 600 whp at 15 psi
now, switch to e85, to make up the difference to make the 9.1 afr required by the e85, we much restrict airflow since adding fuel isn't an option. say we drop boost to 12 psi to get the afr correct. Then we add timing. What I am saying is that this setup would probably produce roughly the same ~600whp as the pump gas setup. At lower boost? yes. but using more fuel to do so.
whatever you do, bring your video camera pleeeeese
05-28-2013, 02:00 PM
#171
9 Second Club
As I said, for such a low power build, pump or E85 hardly matters. So you're just spouting dribble. 600hp is pretty tame, grow a set and aim higher.
And only an idiot would try to tune and simply retain injector duties at a fixed amount.
Just do the bloody thing right and build a fuel system appropriate for the build
And only an idiot would try to tune and simply retain injector duties at a fixed amount.
Just do the bloody thing right and build a fuel system appropriate for the build
05-28-2013, 03:24 PM
#172
FormerVendor
The only point you're proving is that your fuel system is inadequate. No one, and I mean not one single person cares about tests done on a maxed out fuel system. It's relevant to nothing.
Good luck with 12.9 afr and 15psi boost on pump gas by the way.
Good luck with 12.9 afr and 15psi boost on pump gas by the way.
05-28-2013, 04:27 PM
#173
TECH Resident
No, because this is the point I am proving. we will have to back down boost to bring the afr back to where it needs to be, but yes we will be able to get more aggressive with timing.
I don't have actual numbers to work with yet, so I will roughly estimate these to get the idea across.
lets say we tune with my injectors running at 80% duty cycle on pump gas and a WOT afr of 12.9:1 and timing accordingly. Lets say for round numbers sake it makes 600 whp at 15 psi
now, switch to e85, to make up the difference to make the 9.1 afr required by the e85, we much restrict airflow since adding fuel isn't an option. say we drop boost to 12 psi to get the afr correct. Then we add timing. What I am saying is that this setup would probably produce roughly the same ~600whp as the pump gas setup. At lower boost? yes. but using more fuel to do so.
I don't have actual numbers to work with yet, so I will roughly estimate these to get the idea across.
lets say we tune with my injectors running at 80% duty cycle on pump gas and a WOT afr of 12.9:1 and timing accordingly. Lets say for round numbers sake it makes 600 whp at 15 psi
now, switch to e85, to make up the difference to make the 9.1 afr required by the e85, we much restrict airflow since adding fuel isn't an option. say we drop boost to 12 psi to get the afr correct. Then we add timing. What I am saying is that this setup would probably produce roughly the same ~600whp as the pump gas setup. At lower boost? yes. but using more fuel to do so.
Here's what it boils down to. Say you max your motor on pump gas (even with duty cycle at 60%, whatever... who cares) at say 600rwhp@15psi. Lets just say for giggles that you can't risk turning it up any more because of the risk of detonation. THAT is the limiting factor, NOT fuel flow, NOT fuel Injector Duty cycles, NOT fuel pumps. DETONATION.
Now enter E85. Up the fuel injectors to 105 lbs, up the fuel pumps to twin 255s or whatever you need to flow the E85. NOW you can increase the boost and timing to reach upwards of 800 rwhp on the SAME MOTOR that was maxxed on gas. THAT is what everyone is trying to say.
Your point is true.... if you leave everything the same (built to handle the flow needed for pump gas, and at the edge of that limit), you CAN'T handle the flow needed for E85 and you'll never see the benefits of it.
Now if you want high horsepower, you gotta pay to play. You MUST build your supporting systems to a level that is safe for your fuel. Imagine this, somebody says "I want to put a 2000rwhp engine in my Camaro, behind the stock 4l60." That's what your'e saying right now. You want to put this fantastic thing we call E85 into a car that won't support it. BOOM! Just like a 2000 rwhp engine behind a 4l60 will shred it.
If you only want a 600 rwhp car, build it for that, Stevieturbo is right, you can easilly get there on gas. Great. That's about as much as you'll get on pump gas before you start to see detonation. You will have maxxed out the potential of the motor (Heads, cam, intake, pistons, etc).
Now when you're ready to push that SAME MOTOR (Heads, cam, intake, pistons, etc) to 800+ rwhp, you're gong to have to man up and buy a fuel system that will support it. Otherwise, you'll have to do what you're saying and de-tune the system because you can't supply the fuel it needs.
Regardless, your ENGINE has more potential with E85 that it does with pump gas, when supporting systems (fuel) are build correctly. THAT is the point everyone is trying to get across.
05-28-2013, 04:52 PM
#174
My town has 2 E85 pumps, clear across town. Meijer and some hill jack looking place. Its more of a pain in the *** for me to run E85. Thats why ive chosen to run a dual nozzle Aquamist setup sprayin 100% meth w/93. Any one done testing on 93+meth vs E85? Same motor, same boost, only changing variable is the fuel from meth to e85? Id like to see some dyno charts. I dunno if itd be worth it to buy it by the barrel and keep it in the garage just for a street car.. good read
05-28-2013, 06:07 PM
#177
Well, I've been leaning away from the ls engine. I want my car to be a high hp, street car. All for show. I guess I want the big hp for the wow and cool factor. I'd rather not set my car up for e85 because we only have one station here in ct. And im not sure the quality. Can you switch back and forth from 93 to e85 with a fuel system that supports e85? Lost with what to do
For me, E85 would be great if my car were a track only car. but since itll be on the street 99% of the time, i really have to stick with 93/meth.
05-28-2013, 06:16 PM
#178
9 Second Club
Pump fuel here is about UKŁ6 per US Gallon. ( ie 4 litres ) Obviosuly the dollar conversion doesnt always go the same way...but that's equivalent of US$9.60 a gallon !!!
And around 80% of that cost is tax. it is completely and utterly disgusting.
E85 was available in England for a year or so at some supermarket chains. It was dearer than regular fuel. It was pulled though, as the government gave no support for it whatsoever.
Much to the disgust of the racers/tuners. they were probably the biggest customers lol
And around 80% of that cost is tax. it is completely and utterly disgusting.
E85 was available in England for a year or so at some supermarket chains. It was dearer than regular fuel. It was pulled though, as the government gave no support for it whatsoever.
Much to the disgust of the racers/tuners. they were probably the biggest customers lol
05-28-2013, 07:01 PM
#179
Pump fuel here is about UKŁ6 per US Gallon. ( ie 4 litres ) Obviosuly the dollar conversion doesnt always go the same way...but that's equivalent of US$9.60 a gallon !!!
And around 80% of that cost is tax. it is completely and utterly disgusting.
E85 was available in England for a year or so at some supermarket chains. It was dearer than regular fuel. It was pulled though, as the government gave no support for it whatsoever.
Much to the disgust of the racers/tuners. they were probably the biggest customers lol
And around 80% of that cost is tax. it is completely and utterly disgusting.
E85 was available in England for a year or so at some supermarket chains. It was dearer than regular fuel. It was pulled though, as the government gave no support for it whatsoever.
Much to the disgust of the racers/tuners. they were probably the biggest customers lol
05-28-2013, 08:42 PM
#180
Would also like to know if this has ever been dyno tested, or if anyone has a thought on this. I currently run snow's boost juice coming on around 5lbs and increasing up to 13. Thinking of switching to 100% meth or water.