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Help me build it. I know, theres lots of info here and there and everywhere. But a lot that I found is old info. Or not really helpful in why the parts were chosen. And I prefer to ask people with experience instead of a supplier that wants to sell me to buy his products. But I need to get a plan together so I can start building my hot side and buying some parts. And I thank you for the help and advice in advance.
Heres what I am doing. LQ4 and 4L80e currently. May go with a glide for pure track use. In the 97 S10 in my signature. This is also a budget oriented build. I know it wont live forever, but its going to be fun while it does. This is going to be a fast track truck that might be street driven very little. I don't care about how it drives or acts for street use. I like big nasty engines. I'll make it work.
In racing, I can never go fast enough. I went from an 11 second truck to a 7.5 dragster in about 12 months and was looking for a blown alcohol engine before I sold it to run in the deep 6's. My plan for this truck is if I can make it a beast then all out speed isn't that much of a factor anymore. Just getting it down the track is going to be fun.
My goal is 800+hp with it being capable of 1000 if needed. Would be awesome if I can make this RWHP. So build it big and not have to squeeze the hell out of it to get max hp. I would like to run 93 octane for the street when turned down and run race fuel at the track. I can also run race fuel full time if its easier. I'm good either way.
I want to run stock crank and rods. Get CR to 10 to 10.5:1. I like compression but I know there is a limit for a turbo to work right. So advice on cr is welcome as well with reason why yours is the best idea with a turbo that does what I want. Basically I want to build the optimum setup for a budget build. I wont be able to spin the heck out of it either due to stock parts.
Stock 317 heads except valvetrain.
Plan to use my stock truck manifolds. I may try to use the stock flange if it will fit under the hood right, otherwise I cut them up and weld on flanges.
Plan to use the stock truck intake.
Can I get away with the stock TB?
I currently run an Aeromotive A750 fuel pump. I have an A1000 if needed.
I'll use an appropriate converter. Probably stall between 3500 and 4000. Less stall would be great if its possible so I get a wider power band.
I need ...
Good piston choice.
How to get the CR I need. Pistons alone might do this.
Cam choice
Injector size.
Turbo. Which brand and what size? How is it going to act?
Wastegate and blow off sizing.
Pipe sizing for hot and cold side.. So I can start buying tubing and flanges.
IC sizing. I am thinking air to water, not sure how well this works for street though.
That's all I myself can think of right now. If I missed something let me know.
AND, thanks again. So its your choice now. Be helpful or flame away. LOL
Yeah on stock bottom end boosted setups, the pistons are fine. The rods are the first thing to go with them. If you have the choice, look for Gen 4 rods, vs the Gen 3 rods.
OK, thanks for the info. I also weigh the costs for everything I do. If I can get a nice aftermarket part that's stronger for a little more than stock, then I go aftermarket. I have read about the gen 4 rods being stronger and was looking at a set already.
If you're going to run stock rods and pistons, then just pick up any Gen 4 shortblock. You'll get the stronger rods/pistons, and they're all slightly higher compression. Even the lower compression LY6 is 10:1 once you swap on a set of 243/799 heads.
The 80 lb siemens deka injectors are the Go-To injector for gasoline around here. Cheap and can support 1000 whp.
Turbo depends on how much room you have under the hood. Borg Warner turbos are typically much larger and heavier for a given wheel size, but are extremely reliable and make excellent power. If you have the room, I would recommend something in the S475-S480 range.
This is just my opinion. I'm sure others won't agree 100%
What is the rough engine budget for the long block? Turbo(s)?
What engine management system?
For your goals you would need an 05+ gen4 rods. If you bolt newer rods on an older motor it needs to be balanced to "do it right". So you’re better off just finding an 05+ motor.
Much over 1000 crank it's a crap shoot with OEM parts. If your tune isn't 100% one of the stock parts will let you know quick.
What does your S10 weigh? Rear end? Probably too heavy for a stock case glide at 800-1000 crank HP. I’d look at a TH400 right off the bat. With turbo stuff you can gear the rear tall enough that OD really isn’t needed for most turbo builds. Ran a 3.10 gear and 29” tire last year with a glide. It was great on the highway. Swapped to a 3.25 this year and it’s still fine on the highway… Didn’t noticeable pickup with the shorter gear either.
1.) CR goal too high. Race gas or not you'll have alot more cushion in your tune and be able to run more boost with less compression. Around 8.75 is ideal for most IMO. You can create as much cyl pressure as you want with boost. A turbo creates cyl pressure with less heat than higher SCR would generate. You trade response for overall power by dropping the compression. For an auto drag car with a T-brake response isn’t really an issue unless you drop CR down to excessively low levels.
2.) Stock block isn't very stout and will crack between the cylinders at big power levels. Some factory blocks are more stout than others. So without sonic testing you never know. Better to run factory bore and leave as much meat between the cyls as possible. For the same reasons a factory stroke is best when dealing with stock parts.
3.) Stock exh. manifolds are proven at the levels you want to run. But a collector type manifold is a better than a log. Cheap set of shortie headers would be better. (2.5” collector 1 5/8” primaries)
4.) truck intake and TB are fine.
5.) look into the PTC 9.5 Dusty Bradford special. It's a $900 converter. They will hit your stall speed easily and maintain 6% or less up top. I'm seeing around 4% it’s crazy how good they are.
6.) Cam: Anything around .525-600 lift with around 218-224 range 112-114 LSA. Ask 20 different people you’ll get 20 different answers here. Pretty much any of the vendors base level turbo cams will make your desired power.
7.) Twins would be the best route for turbo choice IMO. Borg S366’s are nice brand name units for the money. Some of the china 70-76mm units are also proven to 1000+ HP range. Twin china 69mm gt45’s are hard to beat at $220 shipped each and would be my choice for a china budget turbo. I’d look for 65mm or larger exh wheels. Gt45 has a 77mm.
8.) IC and hotside piping is also debated. IMO you size the cold side to the motor’s NA needs. And most importantly your packaging needs. Anything over 3” is overkill on the cold side… and then some. But many times 3” is the easiest to run since most of the big IC’s out there use it. For your goals 2.5-2.75” would be better. Same deal with the hotside. 2.5” is overkill for your goals. 2.25 would be better and is the commonly accepted hot side size for sub 1200hp cars these days. Shorty headers with a 2.5” collector necked down to 2” into each T4 gt45 turbo flange would be my pick.
9.) 80lb deka hi-z injectors could get the job done with a good amount of pressure/volume supplied by the pump(s). With EFI the A1000 pump is a poor choice IMO. They don’t do well at boosted EFI pressures. If you want a single external inline pump I’d look into the magnafuel 4301 for your goals. Otherwise jayracing.com duel 044 Bosch inline pumps handle pressure VERY well.
At $90 ea. With AN fittings 2-3 GSL392 255HP walbros will give you the best flow per $ invested.
10.) chiseled performance is good place to look at A2W setups. (cxracing for cheap china) Treadstone performance is a good place for mid-grade A2A coolers. (cxracing for cheap)
Last edited by Forcefed86; 06-17-2015 at 03:14 PM.
Yea, I know I am going to hear all kinds of answers. But that's ok. If its from someone that is doing what they say and its proven then I take more stock in it.
Thanks for the info guys.
I found this turbo locally for 600.00 and maybe cheaper and its new. What are your thoughts?
Borg Warner AirWerks S400-75MM, rated @ 1050HP, 1.10AR, 83MM Turbine Wheel, with a T4 flange
And this one for 750 but probably cheaper.
Slightly used Borg Warner S480-80mm turbo.
Hot side ceramic coated black and cold side powder coated wrinkle black by Enigma Coatings. T6 housing, 1.32 A/R, 5" compressor inlet, 4" compressor outlet, 80mm compressor wheel, 5" v-band downpipe, 88mm exducer. Comes with flanges and intake v-band.
On the block. I like the iron LQ4 block for its strength over the aluminum blocks, so I want to use this one. I will have the crank cleaned up anyway and can have the rotating assy balanced easily. I would look at a Gen4 short block if I can find one cheap.
I was thinking 90+lb injectors but that might have been overkill?
Now to Forcefed86 questions.
Truck details.
3350 with me in it.
9" rear with back bracing, Moser axles, Richmond 3.89 gear and full chromoly spool. Currently running a 28" tire but will go to at least a 29.5 tire.
Trany. I will never run a 400. They are heavy and take too much hp to run. I would stick with my 80e and build it first. But I like glides in full race vehicles. I can get an aftermarket case pretty easy. I know a lot of guys that have them. Not that they are cheap but they are available.
No set budget, just cheap. I have spent 35k on race engines and don't want to go that route ever again.
No clue on management system. Need advice.
Hopefully I find a good tuner to help me. I am clueless on this area right now.
CR. If the lower cr is better that's fine. I need to figure this out though so I can get the needed parts.
Exhaust. I have my sanderson shorty set now and did think about cutting them up if I can make them work. But I can cut and modify my stock manifolds easily and swap over to something else later to save some money right now. I found turbo headers used but 500.00 for them. Mine are currently free so much better.
Great news on the intake and TB.
Converters, I will take advice and do some research on them. I have used a few companies but never for turbos.
Cams, I will surely research them. I do not know cams like I should, so its all greek to me. LOL. Even my Top Dragsters 565ci Reher-Morrison engine was cammed by the builder not me. I go with what the builders know works.
Turbos, I am open to single and twin. I'll have room for either since I have no A/C and will pull fender wells ect. I always worry about anything from China. But if they are proven with good success the price is great for them.
Piping. Does it hurt to run 3" cold and 2.5" hot? That's seems to be the easiest route but I don't want to loose performance. So I will reduce smaller if its really better.
Injectors, I thought more than 80lb would be needed. So whats the best choice here?
Pumps, I'll check into your selections. I'll also check with Aeromotive on what I have. I know the A1000 may not work but its a shot. I'll see what they say.
IC. I'll be doing some research on them too. I like the A2W idea to get a bit more power. I would like to find one that fits like an A2A up front if possible.
I think that covered it all. Any other ideas? Faults in my thinking?
Your second choice with the 1.32 T6 and 87/96mm exh wheel is a better choice of the two. (I doubt it has an 88mm exducer? Thats not a typical BW size)
BW rates their turbine wheel by the major diameter. Most companies use the minor. The 1st BW turbo you're looking at has a 83/74mm wheel. That turbo alone will not be very efficient on a 6.0 and your back pressure will be thru the roof. Not a good match at all for your goals. Twins are more efficient. With the twins I suggested you'll likely see 1:1 back pressure ratios which will allow you to choose a rowdy NA type cam grind and make better power across the board. If you want to stick with brand name stuff BW S366 is the way to go. $550 each thou. If you read up a little on the china Gt45 it seems to be a great turbo. Very low failure rate.
If you want to stay budget minded 80lb are the most economical High impedance injector. You can crutch their flow rate with added pressure if needed. One of the members here went 7's on a 408 with 80's and meth inj. on race gas. Low imp. injectors require a driver box or ECU capable of driving LOW-z injectors. Holley HP is one of the few ECU's with low-z inj. drivers. If you need more than 80's jump right into 160's... no reason not to they cost the same. Holleys a great ECU. I like the megasquirt ECU because it is much cheaper. Though it cannot drive low-z injectors. So figure out the ECU first.
These are the best deal for a good name brand HI-z injector at $324 shipped.
A 4L80E robs more power than a TH400, weighs more, and are physically huge. Not that I have anything against them. I'm a glide fan, but I use stock cases at sub 3k race weights. Also if you run a silly low gear like I do it's harder to get out of the hole with a glide. TH400 makes for easy launches with the 2.48 1st.
Don't need anything fancy for headers. You just don't want to go too big on the primaries/collectors. It's a velocity game pre-turbo. Bigger pipe slows velocity. Your turbo is the bottle neck in the system, not the manifold piping. Or so folks like me believe. Same goes with cold side and hotside. Started with 2.5" on the hotside myself. Went to 2" divided setup and I won't be going back. Believe me 2" or 2.25" is easier to route than 2.5" for the hotside.
You'll need something in the 3.2x-3.4x region for gears depending on teh cam and how high you plan to rev the motor.
I'll do some research on the GT45's. Where is a good place to buy them? I have looked at Ebay, but I am guessing that there may actually be more than 1 manufacturer for these and some are ok and some are not. I would want to get a good set if I go that route.
But I am one that likes nice parts { don't confuse this with wanting to use stock bottom ends, they can do what I am looking for } and would rather go with a good company like BW, turbonetics or others in the US. I might talk to the guy with the S480 if it will work. I know its bigger and weighs a crap ton, but that's ok if its a nice piece and does what I need it to do. Also it is a T6 and not T4. I know this is a larger flange opening on the hot side so is this going to be an issue with lowering the velocity going into the turbo? If I go with the smaller hot side pipe, then it could be an issue in my mind. I have experience with airflows and pressures with an old career I had.
Injectors, it looks like the 80's for will work for me. It keeps me from having to buy an added controller just to run the others. That's money that can be spent elsewhere.
Transmissions, I'll do a little research. I have always disliked the TH400. I have the 80 and the cost may be less to build it rather than buy an entire built trany unless I find a good deal one. And if I go with a glide, I would have to change rear gear most likely. So another added cost.
China HX40's are also a good option. It's basically a GT45 with a built in wastegate. Saves money and space that way. Though most of the actuators need to be replaced with something lighter as they come pre set to high boost for diesels. (20+ psi)
You might have trouble fitting two GT45s. Those suckers aren't small. If you can squeeze them in there, go for it. $440 for enough turbo to make 1000whp is a bargain.
Wicked69 had a ton of luck with a pair of On3 70mm turbos on his twin turbo 5.3. Ran high 5's in the 1/8th mile @ 3800 lbs and drove it daily. They're considerably smaller. but about $60-80 more each.
I was looking at On3 as well. Found a few angry posts about some bad parts. Dont think it was an isue with the turbo though. I dont mind chinese but any performance parts from china worry me. I think i can get this s480 for 600. Talked to him yesterday and he said 700. Has said it has about 1000 miles on it. Thinks its about 4 years old.
This is just something i dont want to risk reliability or actual performance. Thats why i asked for help and you guys have. I thought more would jump in with what they run and have experience with.
On3 used to have a bad reputation when they were first getting started. Since them, they've improved greatly. A lot of the early problems could probably be attributed to people not running oil feed restrictors. Someone here recently ran into this problem and his troubles went away with a restrictor.
An S480 for $600 is a killer deal, but you can get a new S475 for just a few bucks more. Either one will make great power and the Borg turbos are well known for their reliability and power potential. Even a bare-bones cast wheel S480 is rated for around 1000 HP.
My take on that is... JY motor gets JY (China) parts. When the motor lets loose many times it damages the turbo(s). So I'd rather have $220 invested in each turbo than 800+.
Thats a pretty killer deal on that S480 though. It will make the power. I'd make sure to put a good filter inline with the turbo charger. Even if something lets go theres a good chance it takes out the turbine blades. Just had this happen with one of my JY setups.
This was a Billet S476. I fed the turbo off the oil filter housing. When I tore the turbo apart I still found metal in the bearings. I'm told oil bypasses the OEM filter quite a bit on cold starts or high pressure situations. Cost more to fix it than 2 new china Gt45's.
Hmmmmm, 2 small (66mm) GT45s, 2" primaries off the stock manifolds, 3" downpipes, next to the tranny or transfer case so STEALTHY...into my Z71.
Hmmmm
GT45s aren't small lol. While the compressor wheel might only be ~67mm, they still have a large compressor housing. They're roughly the size of the Borg Warner S400 turbos. The only difference between them and a new S475 is about 3/4" width on the compressor.
GT45s aren't small lol. While the compressor wheel might only be ~67mm, they still have a large compressor housing. They're roughly the size of the Borg Warner S400 turbos. The only difference between them and a new S475 is about 3/4" width on the compressor.
Oh yeah, I wasn't referring to outside size....just compressor blade size. Since they would be under the truck I don't think size would be an issue.
So does anyone know of anyone selling a Gen 4 rod set? I don't even know which engines and years to look for. I think 05 and newer are Gen 4? And they have floating pins. I have press fit. So I need to find a rod and piston together to be easier so I can just drop them in the block after balancing.
06-16-2015, 06:50 PM
ok, here we go. 
