Air Filter for Turbo?
04-01-2018, 10:59 AM
#165
gota keep em guessing. Is it a boat? Is it a plane? wait, ...
Look down an intake manifold next chance you get.
Better yet look through a wastegate or a muffler.
Oh thats right, you can't tell how good or bad something is just by looking at it.
And be sure to get all ur punches in now because when I dyno this thing back to back with it on vs off
I want to make sure you all have a full 7 course smorgasbord of words to eat.
Look down an intake manifold next chance you get.
Better yet look through a wastegate or a muffler.
Oh thats right, you can't tell how good or bad something is just by looking at it.
And be sure to get all ur punches in now because when I dyno this thing back to back with it on vs off
I want to make sure you all have a full 7 course smorgasbord of words to eat.
04-01-2018, 07:04 PM
#169
I think the filter is too small. The 120 degree 4” pipe is short, may not negatively impact performance too much... I ran a similar size filter though, and at the 700+rwhp range, it will be a restriction. I’d love to see you dyno as is, then without the filter (but with the pipe), and then without anything (or put a screen).
the key is to add fuel (most likely) in the 2nd two scenarios in order to have the same A/F and get a more real head to head comparison.
the key is to add fuel (most likely) in the 2nd two scenarios in order to have the same A/F and get a more real head to head comparison.
04-01-2018, 08:20 PM
#170
I disagree.
somebody with zero knowledge and experience pays a shop to build their car for $999999999 it runs whatever it runs. they know their ****? Nope
Also we can't compare power/ET to $$$ because I can build a cheap piece of **** that runs 9's for 1/10th what it cost to build a full daily car just as fast that is also reliable for 150,000 miles or whatever.
DW I've done this before ;D
Lets use numbers instead of bland assumptions. I am depending on a forthcoming max pressure drop around 1.5" Hg between the filter and compressor. This is what will drive the PCV system at WOT, this is how we measure any 'restriction'. If I see above 1.5"Hg I will enlarge the tube where it enters the compressor (sort of 'blow it out') and use larger filter if necessary. Neither of those things is very difficult. I bought that filter before I even had the engine in the car so I didn't know how much filter I could fit at the time. Its just to keep the engine clean while I work the rest of the bugs out.
As to a/f wandering, the filter is negligible compared to an open/closed cutout.
Also you have to remember each restriction in the system (filter, intercooler, downpipe length to rear, tiny muffler, truck manifolds) adds up to impact total flow. So just based on pure speculation I would say that the truck manifolds and downpipe length/rear muffler will have far more effect at reducing output than the filter.
somebody with zero knowledge and experience pays a shop to build their car for $999999999 it runs whatever it runs. they know their ****? Nope
Also we can't compare power/ET to $$$ because I can build a cheap piece of **** that runs 9's for 1/10th what it cost to build a full daily car just as fast that is also reliable for 150,000 miles or whatever.
I think the filter is too small. The 120 degree 4” pipe is short, may not negatively impact performance too much... I ran a similar size filter though, and at the 700+rwhp range, it will be a restriction. I’d love to see you dyno as is, then without the filter (but with the pipe), and then without anything (or put a screen).
the key is to add fuel (most likely) in the 2nd two scenarios in order to have the same A/F and get a more real head to head comparison.
the key is to add fuel (most likely) in the 2nd two scenarios in order to have the same A/F and get a more real head to head comparison.
DW I've done this before ;D
Lets use numbers instead of bland assumptions. I am depending on a forthcoming max pressure drop around 1.5" Hg between the filter and compressor. This is what will drive the PCV system at WOT, this is how we measure any 'restriction'. If I see above 1.5"Hg I will enlarge the tube where it enters the compressor (sort of 'blow it out') and use larger filter if necessary. Neither of those things is very difficult. I bought that filter before I even had the engine in the car so I didn't know how much filter I could fit at the time. Its just to keep the engine clean while I work the rest of the bugs out.
As to a/f wandering, the filter is negligible compared to an open/closed cutout.
Also you have to remember each restriction in the system (filter, intercooler, downpipe length to rear, tiny muffler, truck manifolds) adds up to impact total flow. So just based on pure speculation I would say that the truck manifolds and downpipe length/rear muffler will have far more effect at reducing output than the filter.
04-01-2018, 09:59 PM
#172
Lets pretend you are a deity, and know pretty much everything
Q: you come to Earth with nothing, what does that make you?
A: A homeless beggar trying to tell people about the formulas for 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 second cars
Think:
It doesn't matter if you own a car, a cloth, sand or land, or 'what they run'.
Welcome sir, please sit down a moment. If I release a score, lets say one random MCAT score is 499. Then somebody will exist who has a 500. Likewise if I were to post 500, somebody else has a 501. How does the 501 compare to the 500? Does it make that person smarter than you? I would wager there are some who would/could score higher than both of us in some exams that are not actually more well adapted to living on Earth than we are.
Dyno numbers, asking for them is like asking age. There exists a number, but it does not accurately reflect "age" the way you meant to ask it. Physiological age? Evolutionary age? Adaption spread of proteomics age? Neurologically relevant number of exponential gene expression duplication events age?
Q: you come to Earth with nothing, what does that make you?
A: A homeless beggar trying to tell people about the formulas for 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 second cars
Think:
It doesn't matter if you own a car, a cloth, sand or land, or 'what they run'.
so then, where's your numbers?
Dyno numbers, asking for them is like asking age. There exists a number, but it does not accurately reflect "age" the way you meant to ask it. Physiological age? Evolutionary age? Adaption spread of proteomics age? Neurologically relevant number of exponential gene expression duplication events age?
04-01-2018, 10:27 PM
#174
-fixed (ty btw )
I didn't design the tube with numbers in mind. It's purpose is to protect the compressor/engine. I said several times I am purposefully giving up power in multiple places in order to preserve the drivetrain.
Giving up power because:
1. no fender/hood exits
2. added mufflers
3. added filters
4. water injection
5. low lift/low rate cam
6. stock valvetrain hardware
7. "Small" turbo
If this were a max effort "numbers" build I would be:
1. shortest, larger exhaust with no regard for noise
2. -.-
3. try to filter but not prioritize it
4. use methanol instead of water and ice intercooling that needs refilling
5. higher lift
6. aftermarket heads or superior casting, higher quality hardware that might not last as long in terms of mileage but would prioritize #'s
7. Over double the size of this turbo
)I didn't design the tube with numbers in mind. It's purpose is to protect the compressor/engine. I said several times I am purposefully giving up power in multiple places in order to preserve the drivetrain.
Giving up power because:
1. no fender/hood exits
2. added mufflers
3. added filters
4. water injection
5. low lift/low rate cam
6. stock valvetrain hardware
7. "Small" turbo
If this were a max effort "numbers" build I would be:
1. shortest, larger exhaust with no regard for noise
2. -.-
3. try to filter but not prioritize it
4. use methanol instead of water and ice intercooling that needs refilling
5. higher lift
6. aftermarket heads or superior casting, higher quality hardware that might not last as long in terms of mileage but would prioritize #'s
7. Over double the size of this turbo
04-01-2018, 10:34 PM
#175
-fixed (ty btw )
I didn't design the tube with numbers in mind. It's purpose is to protect the compressor/engine. I said several times I am purposefully giving up power in multiple places in order to preserve the drivetrain.
Giving up power because:
1. no fender/hood exits
2. added mufflers
3. added filters
4. water injection
5. low lift/low rate cam
6. stock valvetrain hardware
If this were a max effort "numbers" build I would be:
1. shortest, larger exhaust with no regard for noise
2. -.-
3. try to filter but not prioritize it
4. use methanol instead of water and ice intercooling that needs refilling
5. higher lift
6. aftermarket heads or superior casting, higher quality hardware that might not last as long in terms of mileage but would prioritize #'s
)I didn't design the tube with numbers in mind. It's purpose is to protect the compressor/engine. I said several times I am purposefully giving up power in multiple places in order to preserve the drivetrain.
Giving up power because:
1. no fender/hood exits
2. added mufflers
3. added filters
4. water injection
5. low lift/low rate cam
6. stock valvetrain hardware
If this were a max effort "numbers" build I would be:
1. shortest, larger exhaust with no regard for noise
2. -.-
3. try to filter but not prioritize it
4. use methanol instead of water and ice intercooling that needs refilling
5. higher lift
6. aftermarket heads or superior casting, higher quality hardware that might not last as long in terms of mileage but would prioritize #'s
04-01-2018, 11:06 PM
#176
I hear all of this, but like I asked the other day, what's your track game like? I'm tired of reading all these cryptic novels you keep burdening us with. No more square root of X times Y stuff, where's your car? Any track vids? As slow as my car is, I still post up after a track day, but I've yet to see anything track related from you.
Unless you mean in general, skyline/silvia/supra drag racing with 4 and 6 cylinder engines from the past 15 years? I have plenty of dyno day type materials because of the sheer volume of tuning I've done with those cars. I don't really get to the track because I never saw the point, if I wanted a 'car' that went that fast in a straight line it isn't practical unless it went for a very long distance (thousands of miles) so I would build a proper plane instead. Thats more along my lines of interest than actual trailer car drag situations, which again is like a weight you carry around with you as opposed to something practical you can jump in and go anywhere with.
04-01-2018, 11:12 PM
#177
To put it another way. Imagine I bought a brand new Z06, added a 200 shot of nitrous and ran some ridiculous time without knowing squat about cars.
I post a video of it on the internet now and people are impressed? I mean you have got to be kidding me.
OR even worse, I give the car to a shop and drop another 200,000 on a turbo setup and built engine,
go to the track and run some ridiculous time. again I know nothing about cars, its automatic, all I did was put the foot pedal down.
Again, respect? What a joke when $$ earns respect, only from idiots.
I respect the 15 year old with nothing works at mcdonalds and does his own oil changes, dreams of owning that car one day and works his *** off learn everything about them because he knows he won't ever be able to afford one but still wants to beat it.
respect for producing 2x or 3x a factory output whom can also get 200k from the engine they maintained themselves, even if output is still 'pitiful'
respect for doing the work yourself, even if it fails and you only learned a lesson (as opposed to buying a completed car & posting pics of what somebody else built)
for making mistakes and being honest about them. One time when I was 15~ I drilled holes in lifter valley to attach a lifter tray plate into a 2-piece chevy so I could run a roller cam. The dogbones wouldn't fit so I started grinding on the block, and broke into a cooling passage. I decided to weld up the hole with an arc welder and struck and arc while there was still brake cleaner in the valley, it blew me off the car into a bougainvillea. Next the weld wasn't great so I slathered everything in JBweld. 200 miles and It spun every bearing so bad they looked like I had cut an aluminum pipe with a chop saw.
Mistakes are great teachers, I guess, if you live through them.
I post a video of it on the internet now and people are impressed? I mean you have got to be kidding me.
OR even worse, I give the car to a shop and drop another 200,000 on a turbo setup and built engine,
go to the track and run some ridiculous time. again I know nothing about cars, its automatic, all I did was put the foot pedal down.
Again, respect? What a joke when $$ earns respect, only from idiots.
I respect the 15 year old with nothing works at mcdonalds and does his own oil changes, dreams of owning that car one day and works his *** off learn everything about them because he knows he won't ever be able to afford one but still wants to beat it.
respect for producing 2x or 3x a factory output whom can also get 200k from the engine they maintained themselves, even if output is still 'pitiful'
respect for doing the work yourself, even if it fails and you only learned a lesson (as opposed to buying a completed car & posting pics of what somebody else built)
for making mistakes and being honest about them. One time when I was 15~ I drilled holes in lifter valley to attach a lifter tray plate into a 2-piece chevy so I could run a roller cam. The dogbones wouldn't fit so I started grinding on the block, and broke into a cooling passage. I decided to weld up the hole with an arc welder and struck and arc while there was still brake cleaner in the valley, it blew me off the car into a bougainvillea. Next the weld wasn't great so I slathered everything in JBweld. 200 miles and It spun every bearing so bad they looked like I had cut an aluminum pipe with a chop saw.
Mistakes are great teachers, I guess, if you live through them.
Last edited by kingtal0n; 04-01-2018 at 11:22 PM.
04-01-2018, 11:31 PM
#179
Well its no secret I only recently saw an LS in person last year. Everybody knows this?
And as such, are you really surprised that in less than one year, I built a car and have very little track data with it? I mean, aren't you rushing things a little bit? How long does it normally take? Surely more than 6 months to build the car and 6 month to generate an incredible data stream. Especially while attending school full time and working? You must think I have unlimited funds and time. How long did it take you to 'build' your car? Oh whats that, you got the car with the LS already in it? No custom transmission mount to make? No decisions about where to put the computer or wiring that needs to be done to the chassis? Did you have to cut and weld stainless pipe to support a turbocharger? Its alot easier to buy a car with the engine already in it. I think you are putting an unfair expectation on me considering the circumstances. And none of that has anything to do with the turbo or it's filter or the pcv system, so I fail to see how this is relevant to the thread.
I already have more of a build thread than most, and have contributed wherever possible, leaving nothing out. And helped several individuals with their swaps and tuned a couple turbo LS engines that I do not own as well. So it isn't like I haven't been busy either. Only gauge I have is a wideband. Car interior needs to look original. If you want me to collect track data immediately then I would suggest you sponsor me with the equipment necessary, because right now my priorities are things like food and tires.
And as such, are you really surprised that in less than one year, I built a car and have very little track data with it? I mean, aren't you rushing things a little bit? How long does it normally take? Surely more than 6 months to build the car and 6 month to generate an incredible data stream. Especially while attending school full time and working? You must think I have unlimited funds and time. How long did it take you to 'build' your car? Oh whats that, you got the car with the LS already in it? No custom transmission mount to make? No decisions about where to put the computer or wiring that needs to be done to the chassis? Did you have to cut and weld stainless pipe to support a turbocharger? Its alot easier to buy a car with the engine already in it. I think you are putting an unfair expectation on me considering the circumstances. And none of that has anything to do with the turbo or it's filter or the pcv system, so I fail to see how this is relevant to the thread.
I already have more of a build thread than most, and have contributed wherever possible, leaving nothing out. And helped several individuals with their swaps and tuned a couple turbo LS engines that I do not own as well. So it isn't like I haven't been busy either. Only gauge I have is a wideband. Car interior needs to look original. If you want me to collect track data immediately then I would suggest you sponsor me with the equipment necessary, because right now my priorities are things like food and tires.
Last edited by kingtal0n; 04-01-2018 at 11:45 PM.
04-01-2018, 11:55 PM
#180
When I joined this site in 2011 I had yet to see an LS for 5 years to come, and still was able to give the same great advice as I do now, and I got just as much **** for it then as I do now. Fast forward to the future 3-4 years after I've got the numbers and data and I will get just as much **** for it then as I do now.
It isn't about impressing people on the internet, in fact the opposite. It's a far more powerful feeling of belief and realization, learning when you are unable to dismiss solid evidence from a source that you happen to despise, yet despite your best efforts the overwhelming evidence prevails. The numbers will only prove what we already know from 5 years before I even saw the engine in question: you don't need to know about LS engines in order to install and tune LS engines. In fact its probably better if you started off NOT knowing anything about them, the way I did. Otherwise I wouldn't have discovered that I didn't want an LS6 valley cover, and that I didn't need to cut the ears off the 4l80e so drastically, and that you shouldn't loop the heater core hoses.
Some stuff is better to find out on your own. I'm up doing homework still...
It isn't about impressing people on the internet, in fact the opposite. It's a far more powerful feeling of belief and realization, learning when you are unable to dismiss solid evidence from a source that you happen to despise, yet despite your best efforts the overwhelming evidence prevails. The numbers will only prove what we already know from 5 years before I even saw the engine in question: you don't need to know about LS engines in order to install and tune LS engines. In fact its probably better if you started off NOT knowing anything about them, the way I did. Otherwise I wouldn't have discovered that I didn't want an LS6 valley cover, and that I didn't need to cut the ears off the 4l80e so drastically, and that you shouldn't loop the heater core hoses.
Some stuff is better to find out on your own. I'm up doing homework still...