Why Can't We Burn Methanol in Small Amounts?
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From: Phoenix, AZ
Why Can't We Burn Methanol in Small Amounts? They do it in Indy . . . supposedly Torco Fuel's Accelerator is pure methanol, unlike the stuff you can get in California which is M85 ( 85% methanol, 15% unleaded gas ). It's quite cheap compared to buying race gas, is there a reason why we can't use it?
- Dug
- Dug
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From: Nawf Carolina
Re: Why Can't We Burn Methanol in Small Amounts? Methanol is like 101 octane, right? Well its mildly corrosive, and will eventually eat thru rubber and aluminium if used in mixtures over 10% methanol. Not sure how long that would take though, might be a long time. Would probably clog more fuel filters as well.
That could be one reason. There are probably others.
J.
That could be one reason. There are probably others.
J.
Re: Why Can't We Burn Methanol in Small Amounts? First concern, Methanol has a tendency to eat things. Including aluminum <img src="gr_eek2.gif" border="0">
Second, the A/F for Methanol and it's mixes is different.
Stoich on pure is in the 5:1 range, and stoich on the M85 is in the 7.5:1 range.
That means first, you need to change the PCM to deal w/ the different stoich ratio. Second you need at least 2x the injector you have now to use M85 and still make the power your at now. That also drives a pump that can flow the required mass.
Also, the thermal energy in the fuel is less. You will make less power w/ the methanol than w/ regular gas. I don't completely understand that, but i'm not a chemical engineer after all <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
Methanol is nice, it's a high octane number fuel, has it's own built in cooling properties. But it's not as simple as pouring it in the tank.
The additive can get away w/ it becuase it's a small ratio. Remember the PCM can go +/- 25%.
An interesting exercise is to run a tank of pure gasoline and watch you l-trims. then run a tank of the oxygenated fuel, ie 10% ethanol. I bet you l-trims come up a noticable amount. Since the stoich ratio of the gas-o-hol is a lower ratio the PCM compensates.
Ask me how i know..... <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
I designed/built/programmed/cal's the ECM in the Cornell FSAE car in 98 and 99. Turbocharged 600cc Yamaha FRZ running M85 <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">
Second, the A/F for Methanol and it's mixes is different.
Stoich on pure is in the 5:1 range, and stoich on the M85 is in the 7.5:1 range.
That means first, you need to change the PCM to deal w/ the different stoich ratio. Second you need at least 2x the injector you have now to use M85 and still make the power your at now. That also drives a pump that can flow the required mass.
Also, the thermal energy in the fuel is less. You will make less power w/ the methanol than w/ regular gas. I don't completely understand that, but i'm not a chemical engineer after all <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
Methanol is nice, it's a high octane number fuel, has it's own built in cooling properties. But it's not as simple as pouring it in the tank.
The additive can get away w/ it becuase it's a small ratio. Remember the PCM can go +/- 25%.
An interesting exercise is to run a tank of pure gasoline and watch you l-trims. then run a tank of the oxygenated fuel, ie 10% ethanol. I bet you l-trims come up a noticable amount. Since the stoich ratio of the gas-o-hol is a lower ratio the PCM compensates.
Ask me how i know..... <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
I designed/built/programmed/cal's the ECM in the Cornell FSAE car in 98 and 99. Turbocharged 600cc Yamaha FRZ running M85 <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">
Re: Why Can't We Burn Methanol in Small Amounts? Sunoco gas uses alcohol for the added octane BTW.
You can run alcohol in small mixtures.
formula #4 <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/misc/octanebooster.html
[ January 22, 2002: Message edited by: y2khawk ]</p>
You can run alcohol in small mixtures.
formula #4 <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/misc/octanebooster.html
[ January 22, 2002: Message edited by: y2khawk ]</p>
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Re: Why Can't We Burn Methanol in Small Amounts? where in the world did you get the idea Torco Mach accelerator octane boost is pure methanol?
I have used the torco acclerator stuff. It's a strong MMT based blend. One look at your plugs will tell you that after using it.
Torco also sells Methanol and they say it's 99.5% pure but that is unrelated to their octane booster!
I have used the torco acclerator stuff. It's a strong MMT based blend. One look at your plugs will tell you that after using it.
Torco also sells Methanol and they say it's 99.5% pure but that is unrelated to their octane booster!
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From: Phoenix, AZ
Re: Why Can't We Burn Methanol in Small Amounts? Harlan, thanks for the info. I knew it was corrosive in larger quantities. From what I have read however, the less thermal energy does not affect the power, it affects the mileage. It takes approximately 1.6 gallons of methanol to equal 1 gallon of gas, but you will still make more power. At least I've read that from several places. And that would explain why my LTRIMS are so damn high around here! During one part of the year they run MTBE, the other part of the year they run ethanol.
Steve, that was a wild guess as they don't say anything about what it's made of. I had a hard time getting anyone to say anything about the Torco stuff except for one person. So you've used it, do you think it's better than running race gas? It's certainly cheaper!
- Dug
Steve, that was a wild guess as they don't say anything about what it's made of. I had a hard time getting anyone to say anything about the Torco stuff except for one person. So you've used it, do you think it's better than running race gas? It's certainly cheaper!
- Dug
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From: Twin Cities
Re: Why Can't We Burn Methanol in Small Amounts? FWIW, I know a fair amount about this subject.. Stay away from mixing these types of fuel with gas.... Most Octane boosters are set up to support these non mixing fuels.. Methanol can cause problems with your fuel pump, filters ect..ect.. Condensation i.e. water in your fuel is another problem..
<img src="gr_tounge.gif" border="0">
<img src="gr_tounge.gif" border="0">
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Re: Why Can't We Burn Methanol in Small Amounts? Alright guys let me chime in here for a second to clear up a couple items. I was a chemist for Sunoco for 2.5 years. I can tell you with certaintly that if you live in an area that must use re-formulated gasoline, it is oxygenated with methanol and is done so year round. If they are still using MTBE, they won't be by 2004 since the government has banned all public uses of the product.
I can't remember the exact ratio of methanol that was blended but I know we cracked the gas that was intended to be 87 octane at 83 octane so the methanol that was added was done so to raise the octane rating 4 points. We blended the 94 octane gas at 91, so the methanol added there brought it up 3 points.
Methanol is safe for newer cars fuel systems since many manufacturers are making cars that are capable of running straight methanol fuel (they are the ones with the little green leaf on the back of the car).
One item to keep in mind is methanol will pick up water and transport it very easily. In gasoline, once the water content hits approx 900 ppms, it begins to bomb out of solution, but in methanol, the ratio is much closer to 1% (10,000 ppm). This is where you can run into serious problems as this will drop the octane rating dramtically.
We combated this issue by not mixing the methanol till it was delivered to the stations. This way we were able to keep a drying agent in the storage tanks of methanol to assure as little water absorbtion as possible.
That's all... <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
I can't remember the exact ratio of methanol that was blended but I know we cracked the gas that was intended to be 87 octane at 83 octane so the methanol that was added was done so to raise the octane rating 4 points. We blended the 94 octane gas at 91, so the methanol added there brought it up 3 points.
Methanol is safe for newer cars fuel systems since many manufacturers are making cars that are capable of running straight methanol fuel (they are the ones with the little green leaf on the back of the car).
One item to keep in mind is methanol will pick up water and transport it very easily. In gasoline, once the water content hits approx 900 ppms, it begins to bomb out of solution, but in methanol, the ratio is much closer to 1% (10,000 ppm). This is where you can run into serious problems as this will drop the octane rating dramtically.
We combated this issue by not mixing the methanol till it was delivered to the stations. This way we were able to keep a drying agent in the storage tanks of methanol to assure as little water absorbtion as possible.
That's all... <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
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Verdad Gallardo TECH Resident
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From: Twin Cities
Re: Why Can't We Burn Methanol in Small Amounts? Thanks Pewter!! It took me 6 years of chemistry to get a 4 year degree... I was using alcohol as a personal fuel myself and due to the issues you stated within your post.. I had some mixing problems that affected my studies.
Dennis <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">
Dennis <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">
Re: Why Can't We Burn Methanol in Small Amounts? No problem Ripped427. I know all too well about the home brew -OH group. We used to distill our own and then confirm its purtiy with HPLC, talk about nerds, popular none the less.
My best advice, make sure you keep a dry fuel system if you start to play around with any kind of octane booster as they all are very hydroskopic.
My best advice, make sure you keep a dry fuel system if you start to play around with any kind of octane booster as they all are very hydroskopic.
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From: Phoenix, AZ
Re: Why Can't We Burn Methanol in Small Amounts? Thanks for all the help guys! I never took a single class of chemistry, I was into math, computers, and physics at the time!!
- Dug
- Dug
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From: Raleigh, NC
Re: Why Can't We Burn Methanol in Small Amounts? I called and spoke with a techie type at TORCO when I bought my first 6-pack <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> and they explained to me what everyone here has confirmed about typical Octane Boosters only raise your your octane at best a couple numbers, if that.
Not getting into the specific chemicals, they claimed they actually have all the elements in their Accelerator product that comprises hi-octane racing fuel, and concentrate it.
He was convincing enough for me to blow my first $60+ bucks or so on a case, and when I tried it... it worked. <img src="graemlins/gr_judge.gif" border="0" alt="[judgement]" />
What more can you ask? <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0"> Well... I could ask for no coloration of the plugs and to get the product free, but that won't happen. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
Not getting into the specific chemicals, they claimed they actually have all the elements in their Accelerator product that comprises hi-octane racing fuel, and concentrate it.
He was convincing enough for me to blow my first $60+ bucks or so on a case, and when I tried it... it worked. <img src="graemlins/gr_judge.gif" border="0" alt="[judgement]" />
What more can you ask? <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0"> Well... I could ask for no coloration of the plugs and to get the product free, but that won't happen. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
