3 intank pumps
03-01-2008, 12:13 AM
#3
Hey Lonnie, quick question about these dual setups. Don't want to sound like an *** but something isn't adding up.
How are you getting past the fact that 255lph + 255lph with any kind of Y or T fitting does not equal to 510lph worth of flow. From my personal experiance I find that even with the best Y you're only going to get about an additional 60% worth of flow, and thats with a dual -6 in -12 out 12 degree Y fitting made by me. I start to get leary of using a 255lph pump after about 500whp so at ~410lph worth of flow how is your dual pump system good for 1000whp? What happens if one of these pumps fail? Obviously they're in parallel so my motor that's making 700+ hp that needed both fuel pumps is now running on one.... The only time I'll reccomend a dual pump setup is if someone is in a foreign country and doesn't have the parts available that we do. There's far too many high HP single pumps out there to run setups like this anymore IMO.
Once again, sorry for playing devil's advocate, I just want some real deal facts on dual pump systems.
How are you getting past the fact that 255lph + 255lph with any kind of Y or T fitting does not equal to 510lph worth of flow. From my personal experiance I find that even with the best Y you're only going to get about an additional 60% worth of flow, and thats with a dual -6 in -12 out 12 degree Y fitting made by me. I start to get leary of using a 255lph pump after about 500whp so at ~410lph worth of flow how is your dual pump system good for 1000whp? What happens if one of these pumps fail? Obviously they're in parallel so my motor that's making 700+ hp that needed both fuel pumps is now running on one.... The only time I'll reccomend a dual pump setup is if someone is in a foreign country and doesn't have the parts available that we do. There's far too many high HP single pumps out there to run setups like this anymore IMO.
Once again, sorry for playing devil's advocate, I just want some real deal facts on dual pump systems.
Last edited by Drew04GTO; 03-01-2008 at 12:27 AM.
03-01-2008, 10:17 AM
#4
You make some good points & I understand your concerns. I'll try to relate a few facts that I have from the the kits that I have built. FYI, I have built around 100 kits last year alone & have been doing these with Racetronix for over 4 years now. I need to check the total kits I have built over the years as the numbers will be surprising... especially without a single pump failure.
I have supported over 980rwhp on one of my dual pump setups with the limits not yet reached.
The flow testing on my dual assembly shows capability for around 1400hp flywheel. I recently had one of my kits flow tested at various voltages & pressures to support my claims. The pumps I use are slightly tweaked as well so your flows/pressures may differ. I will post proof of the HP limits when I find them in actual testing, since flow numbers only show theoretical HP capacity. I recently had a guy dyno test with 1 pump disconnected using my complete line/rail/regulator/pump kit & hit 700rwhp before his pressure dropped off. Obviously I do not recommend this & do not expect it to be doubled with 2 pumps running, but it is at least a point of reference.
The reason is that, due to flow losses through lines etc., no one is really capable of getting the full 255LPH from a pump at the engine. In theory a single standard 255 will support 800hp, but I've never seen that happen on a car.... maybe if it is hooked directly to the fuel rail it could. I have routinely seen 550rwhp (with stable pressure) on a single replacement pump kit though stock lines, & an approx 75 additional HP with better fuel lines, regulator, rails etc. The other reason is as you reach the upper limits of pump flow the pressure drops off quickly... you are really not using all the flow, but dealing with a pressure drop where the pump cannot support your pressure requirements. If you run lower base pressure, you can support more power on the same pump.
External pumps require pump controllers to prevent heating of the fuel & pump cavitation on the street. They are noisy as well. My goal is to provide a convenient & relatively economical means to supply fuel. If I had a race only car, I would run an external pump & a fuel cell.
Also, modifying a plastic tank for external fittings is not the safest thing to do. These are engineered to meet certain safety requirements & drilling them can lead to stress risers which can cause a tank fracture during an accident. I definitely do not want to be in a 16gal puddle of burning fuel during an accident. For liability reasons, I will not modify a fuel tank & cannot recommend that anyone do this.
Sumped metal tanks are definitely easier, but modifying these must account for the rusting of the welded area where it is modified. I do not know of anyone re-galvanizing their tanks after modification either. Again on a street car, this can cause long term durability problems due to alcohols & fuel additives.
Trying to mount an external pump below the fuel level in the tank is rather hard with a stock tank & how low most cars are today. Mounting it above the fuel level is a potential problem with priming & also due to the fact that externals do not pull fuel well.... all considerations for long term durability.
As for failure potential....
Running an external pump on the street with a controller still has 2 points of failure... the pump & the controller. A failed controller could leave you running at half pump capacity or stranded on the side of the road. This is no different than the 2 pumps that I have. I have never had a pump failure to date, but it could happen, just as the many here that have complaied of the external pump failures on the street. Nothing is fool proof & therefore the reason to always watch your fuel pressure gauge.
As far as 3 pumps, this is probably a little extreme, but still possible. There are a few triple setups for turbo vipers out there currently.
You do have valid ideas & concerns, but my attempt here is to provide an easy, simple & quite method of supporting serious street HP without the headaches of external pumps, controllers & tank modifications. This works great for those that want their car to look & sound more stock than is it. I'd rather hear my engine or stereo than the pump running.
Thanks for your interest & your questions are always welcome. Your thoughts were professionally expressed & I value your opinion. If you would like to discuss this further, please give me a call... I talk much better than I type. Also, I'm an engineer so I get into the technical aspects of this stuff.
I have supported over 980rwhp on one of my dual pump setups with the limits not yet reached.
The flow testing on my dual assembly shows capability for around 1400hp flywheel. I recently had one of my kits flow tested at various voltages & pressures to support my claims. The pumps I use are slightly tweaked as well so your flows/pressures may differ. I will post proof of the HP limits when I find them in actual testing, since flow numbers only show theoretical HP capacity. I recently had a guy dyno test with 1 pump disconnected using my complete line/rail/regulator/pump kit & hit 700rwhp before his pressure dropped off. Obviously I do not recommend this & do not expect it to be doubled with 2 pumps running, but it is at least a point of reference.
The reason is that, due to flow losses through lines etc., no one is really capable of getting the full 255LPH from a pump at the engine. In theory a single standard 255 will support 800hp, but I've never seen that happen on a car.... maybe if it is hooked directly to the fuel rail it could. I have routinely seen 550rwhp (with stable pressure) on a single replacement pump kit though stock lines, & an approx 75 additional HP with better fuel lines, regulator, rails etc. The other reason is as you reach the upper limits of pump flow the pressure drops off quickly... you are really not using all the flow, but dealing with a pressure drop where the pump cannot support your pressure requirements. If you run lower base pressure, you can support more power on the same pump.
External pumps require pump controllers to prevent heating of the fuel & pump cavitation on the street. They are noisy as well. My goal is to provide a convenient & relatively economical means to supply fuel. If I had a race only car, I would run an external pump & a fuel cell.
Also, modifying a plastic tank for external fittings is not the safest thing to do. These are engineered to meet certain safety requirements & drilling them can lead to stress risers which can cause a tank fracture during an accident. I definitely do not want to be in a 16gal puddle of burning fuel during an accident. For liability reasons, I will not modify a fuel tank & cannot recommend that anyone do this.
Sumped metal tanks are definitely easier, but modifying these must account for the rusting of the welded area where it is modified. I do not know of anyone re-galvanizing their tanks after modification either. Again on a street car, this can cause long term durability problems due to alcohols & fuel additives.
Trying to mount an external pump below the fuel level in the tank is rather hard with a stock tank & how low most cars are today. Mounting it above the fuel level is a potential problem with priming & also due to the fact that externals do not pull fuel well.... all considerations for long term durability.
As for failure potential....
Running an external pump on the street with a controller still has 2 points of failure... the pump & the controller. A failed controller could leave you running at half pump capacity or stranded on the side of the road. This is no different than the 2 pumps that I have. I have never had a pump failure to date, but it could happen, just as the many here that have complaied of the external pump failures on the street. Nothing is fool proof & therefore the reason to always watch your fuel pressure gauge.
As far as 3 pumps, this is probably a little extreme, but still possible. There are a few triple setups for turbo vipers out there currently.
You do have valid ideas & concerns, but my attempt here is to provide an easy, simple & quite method of supporting serious street HP without the headaches of external pumps, controllers & tank modifications. This works great for those that want their car to look & sound more stock than is it. I'd rather hear my engine or stereo than the pump running.
Thanks for your interest & your questions are always welcome. Your thoughts were professionally expressed & I value your opinion. If you would like to discuss this further, please give me a call... I talk much better than I type. Also, I'm an engineer so I get into the technical aspects of this stuff.
Last edited by Lonnies Performance; 03-01-2008 at 10:26 AM.
03-01-2008, 11:07 AM
#5
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But so far LONNIES DUAL'S KICK ***!!!!! It's such a nice clean setup with a painless install. BTW-lonnie-i put the fule filter in the fenderwell and know the lines are far away from the exhaust-I'll post pics when I get around to it.
Last edited by eb02z06; 07-22-2008 at 11:12 AM.
03-01-2008, 12:26 PM
#6
Sweet, thanks for clearing that up Lonnie. Glad to see you've done plenty of research into this and am quite confident in your setups after reading what you've posted. If all goes well with my employer I might be transfering up to Pittsburgh in less than a year, nice knowing I'll already have a reputable shop to go to when I get up there.
03-01-2008, 08:20 PM
#7
eb02z06, let me know.... I'm anxious to find the limits. I've even made some improvements since I made the first one for you. Send me some pics, I'd like to see your install.
I also provide tech support for my customers, so I'm only a call away (night & weekends as well) if you have questions during the install.
Drew, if you have additional questions, look me up, I'll be glad to help you out.
I also provide tech support for my customers, so I'm only a call away (night & weekends as well) if you have questions during the install.
Drew, if you have additional questions, look me up, I'll be glad to help you out.
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03-01-2008, 08:50 PM
#9
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Hey Lonnie, quick question about these dual setups. Don't want to sound like an *** but something isn't adding up.
How are you getting past the fact that 255lph + 255lph with any kind of Y or T fitting does not equal to 510lph worth of flow. From my personal experiance I find that even with the best Y you're only going to get about an additional 60% worth of flow, and thats with a dual -6 in -12 out 12 degree Y fitting made by me. I start to get leary of using a 255lph pump after about 500whp so at ~410lph worth of flow how is your dual pump system good for 1000whp? What happens if one of these pumps fail? Obviously they're in parallel so my motor that's making 700+ hp that needed both fuel pumps is now running on one.... The only time I'll reccomend a dual pump setup is if someone is in a foreign country and doesn't have the parts available that we do. There's far too many high HP single pumps out there to run setups like this anymore IMO.
Once again, sorry for playing devil's advocate, I just want some real deal facts on dual pump systems.
How are you getting past the fact that 255lph + 255lph with any kind of Y or T fitting does not equal to 510lph worth of flow. From my personal experiance I find that even with the best Y you're only going to get about an additional 60% worth of flow, and thats with a dual -6 in -12 out 12 degree Y fitting made by me. I start to get leary of using a 255lph pump after about 500whp so at ~410lph worth of flow how is your dual pump system good for 1000whp? What happens if one of these pumps fail? Obviously they're in parallel so my motor that's making 700+ hp that needed both fuel pumps is now running on one.... The only time I'll reccomend a dual pump setup is if someone is in a foreign country and doesn't have the parts available that we do. There's far too many high HP single pumps out there to run setups like this anymore IMO.
Once again, sorry for playing devil's advocate, I just want some real deal facts on dual pump systems.
03-02-2008, 09:58 AM
#10
That is good to hear, but I am not sure he was using my kit. 1090 is a serious number that most will never achieve in a street application, so I feel pretty confident that I can provide a suitable setup for over 99% of the people out there.
If anyone is building their car, please contact me before starting to buy any fuel components, this way I can work with you to be sure all bases are covered in regards to injectors, regulators etc. It seems that about 25% of the people that call me already bought a few pieces that they shouldn't have.
If anyone is building their car, please contact me before starting to buy any fuel components, this way I can work with you to be sure all bases are covered in regards to injectors, regulators etc. It seems that about 25% of the people that call me already bought a few pieces that they shouldn't have.
03-02-2008, 11:14 AM
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That is good to hear, but I am not sure he was using my kit. 1090 is a serious number that most will never achieve in a street application, so I feel pretty confident that I can provide a suitable setup for over 99% of the people out there.
If anyone is building their car, please contact me before starting to buy any fuel components, this way I can work with you to be sure all bases are covered in regards to injectors, regulators etc. It seems that about 25% of the people that call me already bought a few pieces that they shouldn't have.
If anyone is building their car, please contact me before starting to buy any fuel components, this way I can work with you to be sure all bases are covered in regards to injectors, regulators etc. It seems that about 25% of the people that call me already bought a few pieces that they shouldn't have.
I'll call you soon to discuss my setup.
03-02-2008, 06:10 PM
#12
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That is good to hear, but I am not sure he was using my kit. 1090 is a serious number that most will never achieve in a street application, so I feel pretty confident that I can provide a suitable setup for over 99% of the people out there.
If anyone is building their car, please contact me before starting to buy any fuel components, this way I can work with you to be sure all bases are covered in regards to injectors, regulators etc. It seems that about 25% of the people that call me already bought a few pieces that they shouldn't have.
If anyone is building their car, please contact me before starting to buy any fuel components, this way I can work with you to be sure all bases are covered in regards to injectors, regulators etc. It seems that about 25% of the people that call me already bought a few pieces that they shouldn't have.
03-02-2008, 07:58 PM
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You make some good points & I understand your concerns. I'll try to relate a few facts that I have from the the kits that I have built. FYI, I have built around 100 kits last year alone & have been doing these with Racetronix for over 4 years now. I need to check the total kits I have built over the years as the numbers will be surprising... especially without a single pump failure.
I have supported over 980rwhp on one of my dual pump setups with the limits not yet reached.
The flow testing on my dual assembly shows capability for around 1400hp flywheel. I recently had one of my kits flow tested at various voltages & pressures to support my claims. The pumps I use are slightly tweaked as well so your flows/pressures may differ. I will post proof of the HP limits when I find them in actual testing, since flow numbers only show theoretical HP capacity. I recently had a guy dyno test with 1 pump disconnected using my complete line/rail/regulator/pump kit & hit 700rwhp before his pressure dropped off. Obviously I do not recommend this & do not expect it to be doubled with 2 pumps running, but it is at least a point of reference.
The reason is that, due to flow losses through lines etc., no one is really capable of getting the full 255LPH from a pump at the engine. In theory a single standard 255 will support 800hp, but I've never seen that happen on a car.... maybe if it is hooked directly to the fuel rail it could. I have routinely seen 550rwhp (with stable pressure) on a single replacement pump kit though stock lines, & an approx 75 additional HP with better fuel lines, regulator, rails etc. The other reason is as you reach the upper limits of pump flow the pressure drops off quickly... you are really not using all the flow, but dealing with a pressure drop where the pump cannot support your pressure requirements. If you run lower base pressure, you can support more power on the same pump.
External pumps require pump controllers to prevent heating of the fuel & pump cavitation on the street. They are noisy as well. My goal is to provide a convenient & relatively economical means to supply fuel. If I had a race only car, I would run an external pump & a fuel cell.
Also, modifying a plastic tank for external fittings is not the safest thing to do. These are engineered to meet certain safety requirements & drilling them can lead to stress risers which can cause a tank fracture during an accident. I definitely do not want to be in a 16gal puddle of burning fuel during an accident. For liability reasons, I will not modify a fuel tank & cannot recommend that anyone do this.
Sumped metal tanks are definitely easier, but modifying these must account for the rusting of the welded area where it is modified. I do not know of anyone re-galvanizing their tanks after modification either. Again on a street car, this can cause long term durability problems due to alcohols & fuel additives.
Trying to mount an external pump below the fuel level in the tank is rather hard with a stock tank & how low most cars are today. Mounting it above the fuel level is a potential problem with priming & also due to the fact that externals do not pull fuel well.... all considerations for long term durability.
As for failure potential....
Running an external pump on the street with a controller still has 2 points of failure... the pump & the controller. A failed controller could leave you running at half pump capacity or stranded on the side of the road. This is no different than the 2 pumps that I have. I have never had a pump failure to date, but it could happen, just as the many here that have complaied of the external pump failures on the street. Nothing is fool proof & therefore the reason to always watch your fuel pressure gauge.
As far as 3 pumps, this is probably a little extreme, but still possible. There are a few triple setups for turbo vipers out there currently.
You do have valid ideas & concerns, but my attempt here is to provide an easy, simple & quite method of supporting serious street HP without the headaches of external pumps, controllers & tank modifications. This works great for those that want their car to look & sound more stock than is it. I'd rather hear my engine or stereo than the pump running.
Thanks for your interest & your questions are always welcome. Your thoughts were professionally expressed & I value your opinion. If you would like to discuss this further, please give me a call... I talk much better than I type. Also, I'm an engineer so I get into the technical aspects of this stuff.
I have supported over 980rwhp on one of my dual pump setups with the limits not yet reached.
The flow testing on my dual assembly shows capability for around 1400hp flywheel. I recently had one of my kits flow tested at various voltages & pressures to support my claims. The pumps I use are slightly tweaked as well so your flows/pressures may differ. I will post proof of the HP limits when I find them in actual testing, since flow numbers only show theoretical HP capacity. I recently had a guy dyno test with 1 pump disconnected using my complete line/rail/regulator/pump kit & hit 700rwhp before his pressure dropped off. Obviously I do not recommend this & do not expect it to be doubled with 2 pumps running, but it is at least a point of reference.
The reason is that, due to flow losses through lines etc., no one is really capable of getting the full 255LPH from a pump at the engine. In theory a single standard 255 will support 800hp, but I've never seen that happen on a car.... maybe if it is hooked directly to the fuel rail it could. I have routinely seen 550rwhp (with stable pressure) on a single replacement pump kit though stock lines, & an approx 75 additional HP with better fuel lines, regulator, rails etc. The other reason is as you reach the upper limits of pump flow the pressure drops off quickly... you are really not using all the flow, but dealing with a pressure drop where the pump cannot support your pressure requirements. If you run lower base pressure, you can support more power on the same pump.
External pumps require pump controllers to prevent heating of the fuel & pump cavitation on the street. They are noisy as well. My goal is to provide a convenient & relatively economical means to supply fuel. If I had a race only car, I would run an external pump & a fuel cell.
Also, modifying a plastic tank for external fittings is not the safest thing to do. These are engineered to meet certain safety requirements & drilling them can lead to stress risers which can cause a tank fracture during an accident. I definitely do not want to be in a 16gal puddle of burning fuel during an accident. For liability reasons, I will not modify a fuel tank & cannot recommend that anyone do this.
Sumped metal tanks are definitely easier, but modifying these must account for the rusting of the welded area where it is modified. I do not know of anyone re-galvanizing their tanks after modification either. Again on a street car, this can cause long term durability problems due to alcohols & fuel additives.
Trying to mount an external pump below the fuel level in the tank is rather hard with a stock tank & how low most cars are today. Mounting it above the fuel level is a potential problem with priming & also due to the fact that externals do not pull fuel well.... all considerations for long term durability.
As for failure potential....
Running an external pump on the street with a controller still has 2 points of failure... the pump & the controller. A failed controller could leave you running at half pump capacity or stranded on the side of the road. This is no different than the 2 pumps that I have. I have never had a pump failure to date, but it could happen, just as the many here that have complaied of the external pump failures on the street. Nothing is fool proof & therefore the reason to always watch your fuel pressure gauge.
As far as 3 pumps, this is probably a little extreme, but still possible. There are a few triple setups for turbo vipers out there currently.
You do have valid ideas & concerns, but my attempt here is to provide an easy, simple & quite method of supporting serious street HP without the headaches of external pumps, controllers & tank modifications. This works great for those that want their car to look & sound more stock than is it. I'd rather hear my engine or stereo than the pump running.
Thanks for your interest & your questions are always welcome. Your thoughts were professionally expressed & I value your opinion. If you would like to discuss this further, please give me a call... I talk much better than I type. Also, I'm an engineer so I get into the technical aspects of this stuff.
03-02-2008, 10:05 PM
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contact Tiago and MECHAM. they both are running 3 intank pumps. ive seen tiagos personally and hes using his eBOOST2 aux to kick on his 3rd pump. i remember him having some problems with it but i think he got it taken care of. his set up consists of 427LSX and twin TC76MPS turbos
03-04-2008, 11:10 AM
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We have also sold about 100 of Lonnies dual setups with our Street systems and have never had a single pump failure...Nor one maxed that I know of. These are very precise and assembled for a factory function and finish only reason I use them for our systems they are the best available.
Nate
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07-12-2008, 06:50 PM
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thanks for fielding my call late on a sat. afternoon! I appreciate the tip on dealing directly with racetronix, as i am in canada, as is Racetronix.
07-12-2008, 07:14 PM
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Nothing but good dealings with Lonnie and Nate here, highest we have done with his twin pump in a c5 is 857rwhp on a TT car (mustang dyno as well).
I do like the twin walbros due to how quiet they are and affordable.
Im not sold on doing 3, just due to your adding yet another variable in the fuel system.
I belive if you need that extra hp worth of fuel, get a weldon with a dial-a-flow and call it a day. The supra/viper guys run 3 pumps with good luck, but it would kill me to hear someone burning a motor due to a $115 pump dieing.
I do like the twin walbros due to how quiet they are and affordable.
Im not sold on doing 3, just due to your adding yet another variable in the fuel system.
I belive if you need that extra hp worth of fuel, get a weldon with a dial-a-flow and call it a day. The supra/viper guys run 3 pumps with good luck, but it would kill me to hear someone burning a motor due to a $115 pump dieing.
07-12-2008, 08:23 PM
#20
Taner,
You should have said who you were..... I admire your work on that car & followed some of your progress/videos online.
If I knew who you were, I would not have asked you all the basic questions.
Feel free to call me anytime if you have additional questions. I'm usually at it 9:00am - 11:00pm eastern time.
You should have said who you were..... I admire your work on that car & followed some of your progress/videos online.
If I knew who you were, I would not have asked you all the basic questions.
Feel free to call me anytime if you have additional questions. I'm usually at it 9:00am - 11:00pm eastern time.