Why doesnt anyone make Titanium gears?
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Why doesnt anyone make Titanium gears? I mean wouldnt titanium ring and pinion gears, axles, and differentials(limited slip) in a 7.5" 10 bolt be stronger than a Ford 9"?
and it would weigh less, and eat less RWHP.. I wouldnt mind spending big bucks for it, Id just have to save for years, but still why hasnt anyone thought of this? or is Titanium not a good metal to be used for this application.
In that case Im sure there is a strong metal out there that can be used.
Also what type and size of gears do Top fuel dragsters use?
and it would weigh less, and eat less RWHP.. I wouldnt mind spending big bucks for it, Id just have to save for years, but still why hasnt anyone thought of this? or is Titanium not a good metal to be used for this application.
In that case Im sure there is a strong metal out there that can be used.
Also what type and size of gears do Top fuel dragsters use?
Titanium Alloys are about half strong as the steel used in gears. Also I don't know what the price difference is, but Ti gears would be very expensive.
So this wouldn't work with the same design gear. Just like when an aluminum part is replaced by a steel part it needs to be a designed for that material.
Brian
So this wouldn't work with the same design gear. Just like when an aluminum part is replaced by a steel part it needs to be a designed for that material.
Brian
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Originally Posted by 00PewterSS
Titanium Alloys are about half strong as the steel used in gears. Also I don't know what the price difference is, but Ti gears would be very expensive.
So this wouldn't work with the same design gear. Just like when an aluminum part is replaced by a steel part it needs to be a designed for that material.
Brian
So this wouldn't work with the same design gear. Just like when an aluminum part is replaced by a steel part it needs to be a designed for that material.
Brian
I know that gears are cast , and I dont see how they are so strong, if they are just cast steel and then treated... Isnt there stronger metals that can do the same?
one thing about titanium. . .yes, harder. . .stronger. . more BRITTLE, less ductile, less tough. . .stuff I learned in a metalurgy class once. Meaning with sharp, sudden stresses, tends to shatter, cooler weather (i.e. something good for drag racing) would tend to make the gears break easier. Nice idea, not good for execution
Ok now you made me look up stuff!! Grade 4 pure Ti is very strong. AISI 3140 that is used for some gears (I don't know what our gears are made out of) has a slightly higher ultimate strength. If you want to look up material properties you can at matweb.com. But I don't think this pure grade is well suited for this type of appication.
The reason Ti is used so much in high-tech stuff and why we get the perception it is such a strong material is because it's strength to weight ratio is greater than other materials.
If there was a better material for gears I think someone would have selected it by now.
Brian
The reason Ti is used so much in high-tech stuff and why we get the perception it is such a strong material is because it's strength to weight ratio is greater than other materials.
If there was a better material for gears I think someone would have selected it by now.
Brian
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Originally Posted by Duffster
one thing about titanium. . .yes, harder. . .stronger. . more BRITTLE, less ductile, less tough. . .stuff I learned in a metalurgy class once. Meaning with sharp, sudden stresses, tends to shatter, cooler weather (i.e. something good for drag racing) would tend to make the gears break easier. Nice idea, not good for execution
I know that its more brittle, but I had no idea gears are "flexing" when the ring and pinion contact...although it would make sense.
But Im unsure how much the metal expands, due to the gears being hypoid and helical, so its not lik ethey have much room to expand. just how much backlash is left on the setup.
Also if heat and cooling is a factor I doubt that being a problem, since Titanium valves are used and a combustion chamber is one of the hottest places in an engine.
But then again IDK.
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Originally Posted by ls1_doc
What about just gettin your gears cyrodipped? Its not that expensive and a lot of people have good luck with them in trannies.
either way Id like a stronger substance,however I have heard good things about cryogenically treating metals, problem is you cant tell if its been treated or not.
i work on aircraft and we use titanium on some. the CH-53 super stallion has titanium reinforcement around the engine compartment, used primarily for its lightweight. its strong, but is prone to cracking and must be repaired/replaced often. if fact the A-10 has a titanium "bathtub" the pilot sits in to help protect him cause the plane is so slow and takes lots of small arms fire from the ground... around .125 thick. good for impact and minor stresses (minor flexing) not for extreme heat or sudden stress
Ring and pinions are not cast, there cut or hobbed... then heat treated.. the good gears are not cut but ground after heat treating.... Im not to sure what a fuel car runs but I know you can use a 10 inch ring and pinion in a 9 inch housing with a little work and spool and axles... Anything other than the oil in a 7.5 is a waste
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Originally Posted by LSGunZ28
(1) I mean wouldnt titanium ring and pinion gears, axles, and differentials(limited slip) in a 7.5" 10 bolt be stronger than a Ford 9"?
(2) and it would weigh less, and eat less RWHP.. I wouldnt mind spending big bucks for it, Id just have to save for years, but still why hasnt anyone thought of this?
(3) or is Titanium not a good metal to be used for this application.
(4) Also what type and size of gears do Top fuel dragsters use?
(2) and it would weigh less, and eat less RWHP.. I wouldnt mind spending big bucks for it, Id just have to save for years, but still why hasnt anyone thought of this?
(3) or is Titanium not a good metal to be used for this application.
(4) Also what type and size of gears do Top fuel dragsters use?
2. Big bucks huh ?? Do you really think that you would want to (or could) spend the roughly $20-25k for a single gear set ?? The funny thing is... its not really the material cost... it's the process and machine work that is going to kill you. I am sure that you could purchase some of the 29000lbs of excess Ti-6Al-2Sn-2Mo-2Zr-2Cr.15Si (which has never before been commercially available and is way better then Ti-64) for the $14.95/lb price that its being offered at... but then you would need to melt and forge the material into a useable size and shape.
3. Ti is not considered a very good material for anything that has a mechanical working surface. The questions of ductilibility and embrittlement issues also become a major factor. Looking back at the cost issue... the only conceivable way to even use Ti in this application would be to alloy it with other metals.
4. They use a 12.5" Chrisman live axle assembly.
As for the comment on/about the Micronite... its a process, not a coating... and yes, you can also tell if a certain product has been cryo'ed or not. This can be proven by an increase in the materials Rockwell hardness (ferrous materials only).
If you want a stronger material... look into 300M.
Last edited by chicane; Jul 22, 2007 at 04:34 AM. Reason: Grammatical errors.
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Originally Posted by CTSmechanic
Ring and pinions are not cast, there cut or hobbed... then heat treated.. the good gears are not cut but ground after heat treating.... Im not to sure what a fuel car runs but I know you can use a 10 inch ring and pinion in a 9 inch housing with a little work and spool and axles... Anything other than the oil in a 7.5 is a waste
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Originally Posted by chicane
1. No... not necessarily. Even with 50 grades of Ti available, there are only a few that are commercially available. The expense does not make it a viable option for the questioned use. Nor does it's physical or mechanical properties. Lets not forget the fact that the price is going up exponentially and that their is a global short supply...
2. Big bucks huh ?? Do you really think that you would want to (or could) spend the roughly $20-25k for a single gear set ?? The funny thing is... its not really the material cost... it's the process and machine work that is going to kill you. I am sure that you could purchase some of the 29000lbs of excess Ti-6Al-2Sn-2Mo-2Zr-2Cr.15Si (which has never before been commercially available and is way better then Ti-64) for the $14.95/lb price that its being offered at... but then you would need to melt and forge the material into a useable size and shape.
3. Ti is not considered a very good material for anything that has a mechanical working surface. The questions of ductilibility and embrittlement issues also become a major factor. Looking back at the cost issue... the only conceivable way to even use Ti in this application would be to alloy it with other metals.
4. They use a 12.5" Chrisman live axle assembly.
As for the comment on/about the Micronite... its a process, not a coating... and yes, you can also tell if a certain product has been cryo'ed or not. This can be proven by an increase in the materials Rockwell hardness (ferrous materials only).
If you want a stronger material... look into 300M.
2. Big bucks huh ?? Do you really think that you would want to (or could) spend the roughly $20-25k for a single gear set ?? The funny thing is... its not really the material cost... it's the process and machine work that is going to kill you. I am sure that you could purchase some of the 29000lbs of excess Ti-6Al-2Sn-2Mo-2Zr-2Cr.15Si (which has never before been commercially available and is way better then Ti-64) for the $14.95/lb price that its being offered at... but then you would need to melt and forge the material into a useable size and shape.
3. Ti is not considered a very good material for anything that has a mechanical working surface. The questions of ductilibility and embrittlement issues also become a major factor. Looking back at the cost issue... the only conceivable way to even use Ti in this application would be to alloy it with other metals.
4. They use a 12.5" Chrisman live axle assembly.
As for the comment on/about the Micronite... its a process, not a coating... and yes, you can also tell if a certain product has been cryo'ed or not. This can be proven by an increase in the materials Rockwell hardness (ferrous materials only).
If you want a stronger material... look into 300M.
damn 12.5" ring gear!
This is just what Ive learned in auto school about the micronite and cryo. either I Was not paying attention/ have it mixed up in my mind/wrong info given to me, or any of the three mixed up..
and I will look into 300m
Originally Posted by chicane
1. No... not necessarily. Even with 50 grades of Ti available, there are only a few that are commercially available. The expense does not make it a viable option for the questioned use. Nor does it's physical or mechanical properties. Lets not forget the fact that the price is going up exponentially and that there is a global short supply...
2. Big bucks huh ?? Do you really think that you would want to (or could) spend the roughly $20-25k for a single gear set ?? The funny thing is... its not really the material cost... it's the process and machine work that is going to kill you. I am sure that you could purchase some of the 29000lbs of excess Ti-6Al-2Sn-2Mo-2Zr-2Cr.15Si (which has never before been commercially available and is way better then Ti-64) for the $14.95/lb price that its being offered at... but then you would need to melt and forge the material into a useable size and shape.
3. Ti is not considered a very good material for anything that has a mechanical working surface. The questions of ductilibility and embrittlement issues also become a major factor. Looking back at the cost issue... the only conceivable way to even use Ti in this application would be to alloy it with other metals.
4. They use a 12.5" Chrisman live axle assembly.
As for the comment on/about the Micronite... its a process, not a coating... and yes, you can also tell if a certain product has been cryo'ed or not. This can be proven by an increase in the materials Rockwell hardness (ferrous materials only).
If you want a stronger material... look into 300M.
2. Big bucks huh ?? Do you really think that you would want to (or could) spend the roughly $20-25k for a single gear set ?? The funny thing is... its not really the material cost... it's the process and machine work that is going to kill you. I am sure that you could purchase some of the 29000lbs of excess Ti-6Al-2Sn-2Mo-2Zr-2Cr.15Si (which has never before been commercially available and is way better then Ti-64) for the $14.95/lb price that its being offered at... but then you would need to melt and forge the material into a useable size and shape.
3. Ti is not considered a very good material for anything that has a mechanical working surface. The questions of ductilibility and embrittlement issues also become a major factor. Looking back at the cost issue... the only conceivable way to even use Ti in this application would be to alloy it with other metals.
4. They use a 12.5" Chrisman live axle assembly.
As for the comment on/about the Micronite... its a process, not a coating... and yes, you can also tell if a certain product has been cryo'ed or not. This can be proven by an increase in the materials Rockwell hardness (ferrous materials only).
If you want a stronger material... look into 300M.
Steel E = 2.9E7 psi
Titanium E = 1.6E7 psi
Aluminum E = 1.0E7 psi
Titanium is a neat metal because it has high strength while not being very stiff. In a gear set it would flex nearly twice as much as iron or steel.
I say just run whats avalible... Manufactures OE and aftermarkets have spent millions in comming up with the best materials for their applications..I have worked with X-Trac's ring and pinions for those who dont know X-Trac builds transaxles for most IRL and champ car teams along with some F1 stuff their stuff is steel a pretty exotic grade and a R&P set runs about 4000 but its nice stuff.
Originally Posted by Black02SLPSS
Instead of titanium, how about a carbide gear set??
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Originally Posted by CTSmechanic
I say just run whats avalible... Manufactures OE and aftermarkets have spent millions in comming up with the best materials for their applications..I have worked with X-Trac's ring and pinions for those who dont know X-Trac builds transaxles for most IRL and champ car teams along with some F1 stuff their stuff is steel a pretty exotic grade and a R&P set runs about 4000 but its nice stuff.
You guys need to leave the metallurgy to metallurgists. 
Titanium alloys have a high strength to weight ratio which is why they are used on aircraft and racing applications. However, they are not as strong as steel alloys. The highest strength Ti alloys have an ultimate tensile strength around 200ksi whereas the highest strength steels are over 300ksi. Ti alloys are notch sensitive and have poor fatigue resistance if they are nicked or have sharp edges. The surface hardening treatments available for Ti are no where near as effective as for steels--and these treatments are critical to the success of gear appications. Carbide is not a steel, it is a separate material (i.e. titanium carbide, tungsen carbide, etc.) that is often a constituent of steel or a wear resistant coating.