406 Q-ship

iTrader: (1)

With the government going to up in GM's business, I would like to change my vote to "Not a snowballs chance in Hell". We will be getting the Pelosimoblies from the Big 3 when the Congress tells the auto companies what to design. Unless the Camaro sells over 100k per year will we see a Z28, and it will be a stripe package.

hc8719

2009 isn't supposed to be a productive year for GM, 2010-11 are going to be the years GM (and the Big 3) either tip the scales in profitablilty, or fail.

I'm rooting for aftermaket stuff, especially since Hennessy and Lingenfelter have expressed interest in the Camaro, (even the evil forces of Saleen expressed interest, at least at one point). How hard would it be for a tuning company to slap on a 4 lobe Eaton Supercharger, intercooler, and some bigger injectors?

I'd rather see a turbo set up on the Camaro. I don't know much about the LS3, but if it's a higher compression engine, we could see more HP without the turbo lag

Jay Vicious

i hope you plan on lowering htat compression or BOOMMMMM will happen, forced induction cars like low compression

ThisBlood147

It's not really that you can't boost a higher compression motor, it's just that it's harder to run large amounts of boost with one. You could easily slap a turbo or s/c on an LS3 and with just 5,6 or 8 psi turn out some impressive numbers. If you wanna go crazier than that, then yea..........you'd probably have to do a motor build to allow it. But I'd venture to say that most guys looking to go that crazy with their 5th gens will just do an NA build anyways. A forced induction setup would be alot nicer for a street setup 5th gen than a track setup.....but that's just my own opinion.

rasputin

iTrader: (3)

The GM folks at Barret Jackson said yes to a supercharged Z/28 model. These were the guys that were specifically chosen to auction the 0000001 model off, so I feel it holds a bit of credibility.

hc8719

.....+1

BayareaCobra

That would throw a $4XK price tag out the window. If the Camaro SS weighs 3900lbs+ with an N/A Aluminum motor it's probably going to weigh 4100lbs++ with an iron block, forged internals, blower and all the supporting stuff.

Ford has stepped it up with the latest GT500 with a very nice interior, 550hp, 3850lb curb weight without the shaker 1000 stereo and a redesigned exterior starting at $42K.





The Mustang has always outsold the Camaro, GM just received a huge bailout and isn't in the business of gambling. Take a look at the ZR1s, THEY'RE NOT SELLING! Dealers were expecting to push them for $30-$40K over MSRP the first year, they are pricing them at MSRP and they continue to sit on dealership lots unsold.

Base Vettes are also going for $10K+ under MSRP and still aren't selling.

The GT500s sold like crazy, dealerships marked them up greedily and with good cause as idiots still paid out the *** for them. Performance isn't everything when it comes to selling cars.

Brandon Smith

The only iron block LS motors you are going to see are all in trucks man. The LSA and LS9 are aluminum too. And they could make up for the weight in the blower and intercooler with just a few lightweight options.

Hate to tell you buddy Ford isnt doing great either. I dont want either one to go anywhere but to act like ford is all fine and GM is the only one struggling is just a blind statement. I havent heard of ZR1's having problems being sold. And congrats to ford for having a GT500 that couldnt even beat a base vette with 100 more horsepower hopefully they will be able to do it this time, probably not but time will tell. You said performance isnt everything but almost all the facts you stated about the GT500 besides the sales were all performance numbers, sounds like performance matters to you and probably to a good amount of people on this site

88blackgt

obviously this site isnt indicative of the buying public as a whole

silplu83

iTrader: (5)

Why is there a waiting list for the ZR1 then?

Brandon Smith

Never said it was, but by all the stats he gave i was saying that obviously he looks at performance numbers. And if people didnt look at performance then none of these cars would exist or they would be all 4 cylinder models. The fact is some people go I like the look of the mustang enough to give up X amount of horsepower or i like it better enough to give up the fact its a little slower and then there are some people that like the performance of the camaro better to give up a little on it might not be asthetically pleasing as the mustang. But most people that buy these cars buy them for their performance

No most people arent like the ones on this site that have to get the car and its not enough power so they add to it but some do what the stock performance to be nice

88blackgt

we were talking about v6s remember

hc8719

I call BS on your post, and just to prove it I did an auto trader search on all 2009 Corvettes within a hundred miles of myself. Not a single Corvette, of 419 of them were priced below $40,000, even used. It's one thing to say the economy is bad, and dealers both Japanese, American, and German, are trying to sell more cars by lowering the asking price, but when you blow out your ***, that Corvette's are marked $10,000 MSRP, you need to be called out on.

The GT500 is a limited production vechicle. In 2007 (I couldn't find the 2008 numbers), Ford only sold 10,844 GT500s.

In 2007, GM sold 40,561 Corvettes. Now I could be an jackass, and say "The Corvette is not only a faster car, but outsold the similarly priced GT500 4:1" But I'm not. I respect the muscle and sports car community (with the exception of sometimes tuners).

From what I have seen, dealers certainly not been unable to sell the Corvette ZR1, with the exception of the random ******* who is asking $60,000 over MSRP.

Now we could continue this argument, with you saying "but Ford sold 138,000 Mustangs last year" I could go on saying how GM has a whole has outsold Ford for the last how many years? At least 50.

Or we could just not argue "My dad could beat up your dad". Ok now lets get back on topic

BayareaCobra

GM is more screwed right now, they just took a huge bailout that Ford didn't need. They also had to cut Hummer H2 production, and cancel a plan to build a huge plant in Flint that was supposed to build their most profitable cars recently.

As for ZR1s not being sold, do an autotrader search and go on the corvetteforums. There is no waiting list, there are no markups. Also on the Corvetteforums there are new 2008 Corvettes going for under $40K, and used ones going for under mid $30s with low mileage.

If you're disappointed with the GT500s performance compared to new vettes, oh man are you in for a treat when the Camaro is released. Heavier and way less HP and torque and you can't even do a pulley swap and make 550rwhp+, (the main advantage a GT500 has).

This GT500 has the exact same mods I have, lets see GM produce a muscle car that can seat 4 with this capability.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoKKYn_TCG0

ThisBlood147

Bayarea, I know you mean well....but all you're doing is openning the same old can of worms. Plus I don't think the new SS will have any problems being impressive in the mod area.....but that's just a hunch.

I'm totally with you, the Shelby's are very impressive once you start tinkering with them. But fact is they are still pricey, even at MSRP. I had a good mind back in 05 to try and wait to get one.....glad I didn't. I would never have been able to afford one those first couple of years. C'est la vie.

An LSA/LS9 equipped Z28 model would be a great competitor for the Shelby. I'd imagine GM would put it in the 500-600hp area ( I don't think they'd get too close to the ZR-1's rated HP), and probably cost in the same range as the GT500. And then all we'd need is that rumored 400hp GT to make this probably the hottest Camaro vs Mustang rivalry generation EVER.

Brandon Smith

Where did he mention a V6????? He talked about the GT500 and was talking about nothing about V8's. All the stats he gave were on the V8 mustang now when it comes to sells the V6 sales a hell of a bunch because you can give a good looking car to a teen or a girl and its so slow you dont have to worry about them killing themselves with to much power

Camaro Z

iTrader: (5)

......

Brandon Smith

Didnt say the SS would be the meanest thing on the road. It is a pig and I hate that but at least they bumped up the power on it ford doesnt seem to want to give the base GT any type of bump in power and the weights of these vehicles seem to just keep increasing with the increase in safety standards. Trust me, i am not a fan of the weight that is why my 67 LS1 is only 3000 lbs. But only one way to make up for lots of weight and that is extra power that is what they did for the GT500 and thats what they are doing for the 5th gen camaro. My 2000 was 3450 and rated 305 and now they have gone to 38xx with 422 and the LS3 responds better to mods than the LS1 does so i imagine it will all equal out. Its not like we arent going to see videos of 5th gens beating mustangs or the other way around.

Like somebody said before i hope if they do a Z28 they drop the weight just a little doesnt even have to be a whole lot and put the LSA in and then we have a GT500 rival

BayareaCobra

Another reason other than safety standards are these newer cars a lot more refined. As for the GT not seeing a power increase, you have to remember the GT has been out since 2005, the Camaro SS is coming out now as a 2010 model way late in the game, of course it's going to trump the GT which remains unchanged performance wise for 5 years now. From 1999-2004 GTs going to the 2005 model got a nice bump in power, and now the next 2011 model will have another nice bump in power with 400hp and DI.

As for mods, meh, anything that's going to see a significant increase in power will void the warranty and change the way your BRAND NEW car runs. That goes for the GT and Camaro. I think GM needs to offer a power package that's covered under the factory warranty like Ford racing does for the GT.

The GT500 is in another league, it's run 10s with bolt-ons, 9s using a stock blower, motor and nitrous, and 8s with a bone stock shortblock. Ford has been doing the forced induction gig for quite sometime now with modular motors. GM on the other hand has run into a lot of problems with factory boosted LSX motors, from cooling issues to the heads lifting. Here are direct quotes from GM engineers.

this is a quote from the engineers at GM >>>

"Beware Tuners...
the team cautions that any additional power will drive temperatures up dramatically resulting in spark retardation unless a larger cooling circuit is installed, along with a taller intercooler poking through the hood and blocking the clean sight lines."

So basically, cooled down on a dyno a modified/pullied ZR1 is showing nice gains, however in real street conditions the intercooler is not enough and the car starts getting terrible heat soak when the blower is spun faster.

Another direct quote from GM engineers.

"'to keep from blowing the heads off, the team switched to four layer gaskets, strengthened the heads, and fitted larger bolts torqued to 25 percent higher clamping loads.'"


Now I know a lot of are you going to start talking about modded cars and what has been accomplished. The fact is GM was talking about LONG TERM reliability, they had to go through a lot of work for the motor to reliably handle stock power levels. Anything significantly above that has yet to be proven and a big risk to your investment, may not happen right away but I'm talking about 15, 20, 30K miles down the road. The GT500 has been proven right away, within the first 2 months of it's release Evolution ran 10s using stock headers, stock CLUTCH, stock rear-end, stock motor, stock blower, full-weight, just simple bolt-ons. Now there are tons of GT500 owners making ridiculous power without breaking a thing. It's basically a much stronger, more powerful 2003-2004 Cobra.

Brandon Smith

Your right the camaro did stop after 2002 and the sad thing is those can still beat the CURRENT mustang GT now that is what is really really sad.

Next you are talking about any mod that bumps up power for as LS motor voids the warranty and then you turn around and talk about turning up the boost on a GT500???? So are you trying to say Ford warranties even that lol I dont think so. The thing is GM doesnt need to offer a power package that still comes warrantied because there base power package beats the power packages of the mustang.

Show me a factory boosted LS motor and show me all these problems you are talking about. Yes any motor modded to make huge power is going to see some problems. Yeah and I am glad to know they can run 10's with bolt ons when GM has done it with just DR lol good job and good point.

So you are saying that the blower they put on a ZR1 meant to be a track car can not endure long sprints around a track hmmmmm i think the nurinburg track times and a lot of other people that have done times on these cars would like to differ on that view of yours.

And are you getting on them for testing a boosted application finding the problems and finding ways to fix it???? I am glad they did better than just sticking something together and hoping it works.

And you want to see if a ZR1 can hold up down the road? I guess we will see and i feel like we will see 10's without any bolt ons that the GT500 had to have just like the Z06 did and I am sure we will see 9's pretty easy also but like you said time will tell. Def wont take as many mods as those GT500's had probably