RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Well, in that case GM is still #1 so for today, yesterday, and 10 years ago, GM kicked Toyota's *** in all catigories and had a better product.

LOL. By your own logic.

dailydriver

And where exactly are you from, New F'in Delhi??! By the way you bash this country's products/people you surely sound like you are!! When does your green card expire (so you can go back, and we don't have to hear your import worshipping ravings anymore)??

DemitriHKS

Well the thing to keep in mind is that Toyota would have surpassed GM a long time ago but it's that GM has so many companies under its belt. Toyota did great with Toyota, Lexus and now Scion has pushed them over the top. It was bound to happen eventually.

Hennytime

iTrader: (33)

your not helping the stereotype

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Scions quality rankings for '06 were the same or below that of Chevrolet.

Point is, sales figures alone don't determine quality. I too am certain that Toyota will eventually surpass GM in sales. But who cares? That doesn't really mean anything. Because by that logic, GM (#1 seller) would have been building a MUCH better product than Toyota all these years that Toyota was the #2, #3, or #4 seller, even when Toyota had much higher quality rankings than GM.

It's a stupid arguement really.

Hennytime

iTrader: (33)

ferarri must be dead last in quality

HAMRHEAD

iTrader: (8)

This stuff is funny! Everyone enjoys their own thing. I hate ricers but I don't hate imports. Yet without ricers who would I race most the time. There are far more of them out there to beat on! Yet I have seen some EVO's (I'm sure there's more types too) out there that are fast as f'k! A shop in IL works on them and many 900hp evos with AWD come from there. Not saying I prefer them but I do respect them as an avid car fanatic. I just love cars and it is a shame they have to pay for the poor choices of some of their owners. I am sick of people ripping on this country's products though. I hear these drifting goofs bad mouth GM and Ford like a bunch of import ****'s. If you have a problem with this country then leave and see what it's really like in other countries. I've seen it in several and we got it GOOD here! I guess unless you are number one in sales you suck? Well I like the way my car sucks then.

N4cer

iTrader: (11)

The ricer fools will always be out there. It's just our duty to outrun them and put them in their place, one at a time!

I really don't get the point to adding weight and downforce to the rear of a FWD car by putting a wing on it. I've only driven one FWD that oversteers, and it was my Avalon, and only in the snow. Aren't these idiots just increasing the understeer on their turds?

WiseAssJester

I can't get ricers to take the bait.

Not even when moneys on the line.

redbanditz28

Whoa, I got a omplete problem with this whole import cars vs domestic cars thing. Whether you are talking about muscle cars vs import tuners/ricers or even import luxury cars vs domestic luxury. I have test drove many different kinds of vehicles from all manufacturers and i think its complete bullshit what the newspapers and car magazines like road and track and car and driver say about a lot of things. I've been inside my cousins's most expensive model BMW and my sister in law's Mercedes, and a few Lexus and inifinities and my family current;y owns a lincoln and we test drived a Caddy DTS and CTS and a Chrysler 300 and i can personally say that the american cars are way more comofortable and spacious than the imported luzury cars. BMW's and Mercedes are so friggin stiff in their seating and there is no leg room at all in their cars. They may be better build quality than caddy or lincoln, but they don't have anything on them in terms of comfort and room and a good size trunk. And they all get about the same gas mileage. And as far the the stupid lexuses and infinitis out there, they are nothing more than a nissan and toyota to me. I've been in them and they may be luxury car, but they are the spitting image and feel of toyotas and nissans i have been in. I don't like american luxury because i am partial to american cars, i am a realist in what i say. Not to say that some import luxury cars aren't better than Domestic, but i have been in a decent amount of models of both and i am partial to at least the cadillacs and lincolns. My cousin's expensive model BMW was the most uncomfortable car i have ever been in and a lot of my family agrees. My sister in law is loaded with money and she is thinking about selling her brand new Mercedes because its gets horrible gas mileage and things are actually breaking on it already. Not to say this doesn't happen to Domestics, but i can't stand people who are in denial that import luxury cars are completely better than domestic. I think each may have thier own stregnths and weaknesses.

redbanditz28

And in terms of american muscle vs import cars, both also have their strengths and weaknesses. Thats all that can ever be truly said about both. I don't think its natural for a 4 cyl or even 6 cyl engines to be a drag car. No one thinks power when they think 4 or 6 cyl engine. I am sorry but its the truth. They may be able to beat a lot of 8 cyl engines, but no one sees a 4 or 6 cyl as powerful or torquey. However, if you run you car on a track, engine size doesn't matter as much, and weight and cornering come into play. Naturally an all wheel drive will do good on those tracks where as a rear wheel drive may be handicapped. In my mind imports will always be made for track use and rear wheel drive 8 cyl engines will always be made for the drag strip. Not to say you can't use both for both, but thats the way i see it and i am sticking to it.

slick1851

DSMs were the old modded imports in the scene for years.......

This thread is pointless, and is a pissing match

NHRAMAN

iTrader: (1)

Thats for sure.

2002_Z28_Six_Speed

iTrader: (19)

That is funny because we destroyed so many countries after the great wars and then turned around only to give them the money and technology to build better industries. Only then they superceded us and now we pay for it!! If only we kept the money in our country... hmm

sidewayz28

iTrader: (24)

havent read any of the thread.. but i will NEVER drive an import for performance! i will be the last AMERICAN car standing and i would take on the whole import fleet til i die BABY!!!! AMERICA BABY

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

No, you won't be the last. I'll be right there with you.

I know I've been all about the facts in this thread, but now I'm going to give an opinion:

I owned a Toyota for 6 years. It had 120K on it when sold. Nothing about that car impressed me as being better that the American counterparts. Not power, not MPG, not quality, not reliablilty, and definitely not style. This was my wife's car, personally I never would have bought it for myself.

Frankly I don't even look at the asian cars when car shopping. I much prefer what the domestics have to offer (especially in terms of engine options and appearance/styling). Mainly my interest lies in GM, but I do like some things Ford has to offer as well.

Asmodeus

I had this big long post typed up, but.. I think I can sum it up with this:



You couldn't run my Z or my GN with your "I fill my sig with appearance mods" SOM POS, go trade that **** in on a grocery getter Honduh and this board. This is a *gasp* GM Enthusiest site! Spout your **** somewhere else.

BananaHead

iTrader: (2)

And you, yourself, are definately NOT biased, NOR stubborn?

Nobody here is really interested in your undying love for Japan, if you couldn't already tell. Your arguments are strictly opinion and biased towards import cars. You posted that a Prelude can outhandle a Vette...that pretty much proves it. The post where you listed the picture comparisons of the interiors, I can say with pure truth that I totally prefer the American versions in every one. Who is to say that one car has a better interior than another? That kind of thing cannot be fact. I LOVE the interior of my 2002 SS. It's everything that I need, and I love the way it lights up at night. My g/f's Scion TC? Eh...I'm not too impressed. Actually, I really DISLIKE it. Don't come and say that American car supporters are ignorant and then just biindly say that import cars are automatically better in every single way and always will be.

I think you might be happier if you traded your F-body for a 350Z...

And for the record...how many people who buy EVO's an STi's ACTUALLY RALLY RACE THEM?

Asmodeus

Foreign car or domestic? Reputation isn't the only factor
By Aviya Kushner • Bankrate.com

Mechanics, consumers and car analysts all tick off the same names when asked for the most reliable cars: Honda and Toyota.

But, they add, not all imports are so impressive.

Some models from luxury brands such as Mercedes and Audi are turning in below-average reliability numbers, according to new data from J.D. Power and Associates, the independent research firm. And complaints are popping up in car magazines from luxury buyers who feel disappointed.

Meanwhile, some budget imports continue to turn in beautiful performances year after year.

"The Japanese Big Three have been at the top of the dependability charts since 1990," says Joe Ivers, partner and executive director of quality and customer satisfaction at J.D. Power and Associates in Detroit.

"Toyota, Honda and Nissan tend to do very well, and there's very little difference from one to the next," Ivers says. "In the luxury category, Lexus is the best with 163 repair incidents per 100 cars, and Infiniti is next with 174 per 100."

But upper-end Buicks and Cadillacs perform well, too, and American cars overall have improved, Ivers says.

Consumer data tends to back up the theory that Japanese cars are the favorites. Edmunds.com tracks the "best cars" according to consumers and the site's editors. Consumers, selecting the best cars in a variety of categories, chose an import in 28 of 29 categories, from budget to luxury. Only the Chevy Corvette won its class.

What local mechanics say
Whether you're crouching under the car or sitting in an office chair in Detroit analyzing tens of thousands of car histories for a research giant, the quality assessment is more or less the same.

"The Japanese are leading the way," says Mitchell Seligson, a mechanic with 16 years of experience and the owner of Masterfix, in Orangeburg, N.Y. "They revolutionized everything during the 1980s, and everyone's trying to catch up. What I tell people is that in overall quality, Honda and Toyota are what I call the gold standard -- and that includes Lexus and Acura."

Beyond that, the picture gets a little muddier. American cars can be very good, but not as consistently.

"Once you get out of there, it's hard to generalize," Seligson says. "Sometimes you have a model that was good and then they have a design change and there are problems. An example of that is the Ford Taurus. The early models had problems but seemed to work them through."

Consumers should remember that reputation doesn't mean this year's model will be the same, he cautions.

Not all imports are created equal
Speaking of reputations, the European car your neighbor buys to impress everyone else may not be such a smooth ride anymore.

A new study from JD Power shows that some glamorous European cars, long considered quality winners and jealousy-inducers, are actually below average in dependability.

"We take the pulse of customers when their cars are 3 years old," which is a change from the old system of looking at 5-year-old cars, Ivers says, "and we've noticed in the past few years that some manufacturers have fallen behind. Mercedes, and the same is true for Audi."

Those luxury cars are averaging 318 incidents per 100 vehicles, over the past year.

The Land Rover is showing 441 problems per 100 vehicles, including oil leakage and other severe problems, and Volkswagen is also in the lower portion of the field.

That wasn't always the case.

"In 1990, when we looked at the 1985 models, Mercedes led the industry, and was even better than Toyota," Ivers says.

Now, the Mercedes buyer has changed, and she's often younger and more jittery, says Ivers.

"We're seeing more problems in the entry-level L class, and we know they have high expectations," he says.

So it's not clear if the complaints are because of poor-quality cars or nervous owners.

"You might think that the customers who pay the most have the highest expectations, but the people who buy highest-end cars are not stretching themselves to buy that car," Ivers says.

"But a young person who is reaching for an L class, that person is hard to please."

European carmakers trying to capture the entry-level luxury buyer have the challenge of finding ways to cut costs while still giving a feeling of luxury.

Europeans tend to innovate technologically. These new features can cause problems, triggering a rash of complaints, Ivers says.

Some European brands continue to perform very well, Ivers says. He lists Porsche, BMW and Saab as leaders.

"Customers have fewer problems with BMW than with Mercedes," he says.

Estimating your costs
The sticker price is not the only thing to consider when choosing between foreign and domestic. Replacement parts and maintenance can make a difference in your annual cost.

Edmunds.com projects all ownership costs including repairs, and gives you an estimate of maintenance costs.

Local mechanics emphasize that costs can surprise you no matter how much you research.

Import hassle -- beyond the charts
"Certain import makes can be a real pain when it comes to the dealer experience," says Karl Bauer, editor-in-chief of Edmunds.com.

"This is purely anecdotal information. However, for as long as I've been in the industry -- 10 years -- I've been hearing about how difficult Honda dealers can be when it comes to getting service."

That's not something the charts tell you, he says.

Every car's better today
All cars last longer than they used to, says Shawn Harris of Overdrive Motors in Iowa City, who's been a mechanic for 15 years.

"You used to be able to get 125,000 miles out of an engine 20 years ago," he says. "Now, if you take care of your engine, the engine should last 200,000 to 230,000 miles."

That's true whether your car cost $15,000 or $50,000, and whether it's American or not, he says. If you go into the top-of-the-line luxury cars, like a Rolls-Royce, you can get 500,000 miles out of your engine.

"Every car has its problems," Harris says. "Foreign cars have a weaker body than American cars, so the body will rust out. After a foreign car rusts out, you're better off replacing it."

He ticks off a list of individual car issues. Like people, he says, every car make and model has its weakness.

In the $15,000 range, Harris likes the Chevy Lumina, the Olds Delta 88 and the Olds Supreme, or a Toyota Camry, which he says is "probably the best-built Toyota."

In the $25,000 range, he sees lots of good choices, with Honda at the top. If you take care of a Honda engine, you can get 300,000 miles out of it, he says.

Reputation isn't everything
The real lemons don't last, analysts say, which means that any panned car that's still out there may be better than your neighbor says.

Ivers says cars can make a turnaround, giving open-minded consumers a potentially better deal. Jaguar is a much better car than people realize, he says. And Nissan has made tremendous improvements.

"Eventually the reputation catches up," says Ivers. But "Jaguar is doing great right now, and I'm quite certain people don't consider it as seriously" because of its previous problems.

Exceptions to the rule
"You'll always find a problem child who's doing great," says Seligson of Masterfix. "I have a customer with a Kia and 130,000 miles, and it's doing great."

As for the old saw that you get what you pay for, that's not always the case mechanically, he says, pointing to the Toyota Corolla and its more-expensive cousin, the Avalon..

"This is really a case where the Corolla does not have less quality than the Avalon," Seligson says. "The buyer gets what they pay for with the Avalon by getting a larger, more-luxurious car."

There's always something indefinable about cars, mechanics explain, which make charts seem a little insufficient.

Seligson says Consumer Reports offers a wealth of excellent information from its extensive testing of new cars, and he recommends it highly. But for a sense of the "personality" of the car, and whether owners generally enjoy driving it, he suggests reading enthusiast magazines like Car and Driver or Motor Trend.

Consider insurance and replacement costs
You'll pay a little more to insure a foreign car, says Mike Gould of Advanced Insurance Services in Iowa City. If your car tops the list of frequently stolen vehicles, that gets factored in, as does the replacement cost for parts if your car is a rare import and you live in an isolated area. Generally, Gould says a Honda generally will cost about 10-percent more to insure than an American car with a similar price tag.

Expensive imports will often be more expensive to insure, Gould says. Expensive cars will have pricey parts and insurers take that into account.
-- Posted: Dec. 9, 2003

redbanditz28

I'll be right there with you guys too.