Help me plan my Top End Package
TECH Veteran
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,893
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From: Mississippi
AFR and TFS are both top on the line heads.... kinda like coca cola and Pepsi. Some guys like coke better some like Pepsi better. They both will deliver period. But as I've been to some LS events I tend to see TFS heads more on cars than AFR heads. The TFS headed cars are always running some of the fastest passes down the strip period. Martin Smallwood once told that he wanted to run TFS heads on his personal car but was forced to run a head with the factory valve angle due to the class of racing he was in.... so AFR heads got the service.
Also don't forget Navyblue the sbe LQ4 record is held by a GREAT Mississippian running some TFS 225 heads. Guy name Jacob Perkins.
Also don't forget Navyblue the sbe LQ4 record is held by a GREAT Mississippian running some TFS 225 heads. Guy name Jacob Perkins.
11 Second Club
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,541
Likes: 15
From: South Florida
To the OP. Your doing the right thing. I believe the best way to build your car is do the research & choose the parts that will best fill what you want out of your car.
On my build I had most of the parts that were going to be used. Instead of choosing an off the shelf cam I called a cam guru(Martin Smallwood). Told him everything I wanted & was looking for. Cam was matched perfect for my combo/wants.
Good luck man.
On my build I had most of the parts that were going to be used. Instead of choosing an off the shelf cam I called a cam guru(Martin Smallwood). Told him everything I wanted & was looking for. Cam was matched perfect for my combo/wants.
Good luck man.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,845
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From: Coast of San Mateo County Between Pacifica & HMB
the valve size and Bore shrouding is suboptimal IMO. On Tony's
383" the difference between the AFR 205 VS 225 was minimal,
The difference between MMS 220 or 223 Sportsman and AFR 230
Would be even less, especially on a 346", and the RPM required to utilize
The extra airflow/port volume would be counter productive on
a Auto X application with 3.42:1 Rear End gears. 3.73:1 or 3.90:1 and Road Course (Longer opportunity to wind out gears) different story. But now
With 7000+RPM, Oiling and other factors start to snowball the
Build & COST!! Ask me how I Know LOL.
I had a 630hp R32 GTR i hated driving because it was big boost. Forced Induction stuff is fun for the power, but the associated reliability issues and requirements for equipment ruin the car IMO. I barely drove my skyline the last couple years because it was never worth the "if it blows up its gonna cost me $8k to rebuild" part of it to crusie to get an icecream ona Sunday, plus the crazy clutch and ridiculous drivability took all the enjoyment out of it.
I know this is a stretch, and a mediocre supercharger kit wouldn't necessarily do this, but i have a serious addiction to modifying to "improve", and after 3 years it becomes what ever i have becomes race car. I wanna do the N/A thing this time, and keep it streetable while make as much power as i can.
I know this is a stretch, and a mediocre supercharger kit wouldn't necessarily do this, but i have a serious addiction to modifying to "improve", and after 3 years it becomes what ever i have becomes race car. I wanna do the N/A thing this time, and keep it streetable while make as much power as i can.
500rwhp FI will be much more streetable and than 500rwhp NA in these cars. Not trying to change your mind or anything just putting it out there.
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Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 31
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Ive been reading, and i think ive decided if I can see anywhere north of 450whp Ill be happy. Been looking at ProMaxx heads actually. Im debating if I wanna spend the money on AFR or TFS, or if Promaxx would do the trick. Been talking to a few suppliers and I ahve heard lots of good stuff about Promaxx, as long as u dont run their supporting equipment.
Still looking, and honestly I would consider used stuff when the time comes, if I could find used Mamo set up when Im ready to buy, that will likely make my decision.
There is no need to port a holley 105 in the first place and imo a 105 would be a turd on nearly any stock cid engine. a 102 and ported fast 102 intake is more than sufficient.
Chasing 500 will get you a car that is all top end and not very fun down low. Any of the 450hp cars would likely put the hurt on you at the autoX events also.
If you are looking for advice then take the advice. Too often people start threads like this with their own ideas and dont listen to the advice. Going too big and chasing a number is not the best way to go.
If you want 500 then ditch the ls1 and swap in an ls2 or ls3. itll be quite a bit better platform get you where you say you want to be. 500 cam only in an ls3 is alot better than trying to do it in an ls1 and alot more useable also.
Chasing 500 will get you a car that is all top end and not very fun down low. Any of the 450hp cars would likely put the hurt on you at the autoX events also.
If you are looking for advice then take the advice. Too often people start threads like this with their own ideas and dont listen to the advice. Going too big and chasing a number is not the best way to go.
If you want 500 then ditch the ls1 and swap in an ls2 or ls3. itll be quite a bit better platform get you where you say you want to be. 500 cam only in an ls3 is alot better than trying to do it in an ls1 and alot more useable also.
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 31
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There is no need to port a holley 105 in the first place and imo a 105 would be a turd on nearly any stock cid engine. a 102 and ported fast 102 intake is more than sufficient.
Chasing 500 will get you a car that is all top end and not very fun down low. Any of the 450hp cars would likely put the hurt on you at the autoX events also.
If you are looking for advice then take the advice. Too often people start threads like this with their own ideas and dont listen to the advice. Going too big and chasing a number is not the best way to go.
If you want 500 then ditch the ls1 and swap in an ls2 or ls3. itll be quite a bit better platform get you where you say you want to be. 500 cam only in an ls3 is alot better than trying to do it in an ls1 and alot more useable also.
Chasing 500 will get you a car that is all top end and not very fun down low. Any of the 450hp cars would likely put the hurt on you at the autoX events also.
If you are looking for advice then take the advice. Too often people start threads like this with their own ideas and dont listen to the advice. Going too big and chasing a number is not the best way to go.
If you want 500 then ditch the ls1 and swap in an ls2 or ls3. itll be quite a bit better platform get you where you say you want to be. 500 cam only in an ls3 is alot better than trying to do it in an ls1 and alot more useable also.
Im still reading and trying to decide. I think ive decided to go with a LLSR set up for sure, and to stay away from the cheaper heads and get soemthing decent. I may get a hold of Mamo when im ready to see about prices, but Im not racing in the world cup, so the extra 7hp for $2k isnt worth it to me. I just wanna basically make the best power i can keeping a reasonable budget, as in buy the best heads for the price.
You dont need an llsr to go mid 400s. A fast 102 and a set of stock 243s and a mid range cam will get you there. If anything the flotech headers and vararam will be limiting you on that part.
Invest in a good clutch setup, keep the budget on track and itll be a fun car.
Invest in a good clutch setup, keep the budget on track and itll be a fun car.
Beg to differ on one point. In general 500 rwhp is a pita on a 5.7, but it doesn't have to be.
I've run fourth from 30 up and pulled guys in second. You CAN preserve a really strong midrange and get great top end power and it's liveable. But you gotta do what the OP is thinking -- put your money in the heads. Then you can hit your power goals with less cam. You can compare my cam to PatG recipe to 500 and see mines smaller - and I made power through a nine inch with 4.11, not a stock ten bolt. PatG at the time, best heads available were the AFR205's, and -- hand worked by Tony Mamo.
And I know some people aren't fans of LLSR, but find someone who actually uses them and wishes they had stayed hydraulic.... It's rare. The valve follows the cam profile so much more precisely you get more out of the cam. And there's no price premium. You don't need adjustable rockers, the lifters are 400 a set, the cam is the same price, and the pushrods and springs. Only thing extra is shims to go under the rocker pedestals to get to zero lash. That's it. Like 100 for the shim pack.
Bottom line -- OP uses top shelf heads, moderate LLSR cam, good intake and exhaust, he'll run tremendously good.
I've run fourth from 30 up and pulled guys in second. You CAN preserve a really strong midrange and get great top end power and it's liveable. But you gotta do what the OP is thinking -- put your money in the heads. Then you can hit your power goals with less cam. You can compare my cam to PatG recipe to 500 and see mines smaller - and I made power through a nine inch with 4.11, not a stock ten bolt. PatG at the time, best heads available were the AFR205's, and -- hand worked by Tony Mamo.
And I know some people aren't fans of LLSR, but find someone who actually uses them and wishes they had stayed hydraulic.... It's rare. The valve follows the cam profile so much more precisely you get more out of the cam. And there's no price premium. You don't need adjustable rockers, the lifters are 400 a set, the cam is the same price, and the pushrods and springs. Only thing extra is shims to go under the rocker pedestals to get to zero lash. That's it. Like 100 for the shim pack.
Bottom line -- OP uses top shelf heads, moderate LLSR cam, good intake and exhaust, he'll run tremendously good.
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Beg to differ on one point. In general 500 rwhp is a pita on a 5.7, but it doesn't have to be.
I've run fourth from 30 up and pulled guys in second. You CAN preserve a really strong midrange and get great top end power and it's liveable. But you gotta do what the OP is thinking -- put your money in the heads. Then you can hit your power goals with less cam. You can compare my cam to PatG recipe to 500 and see mines smaller - and I made power through a nine inch with 4.11, not a stock ten bolt. PatG at the time, best heads available were the AFR205's, and -- hand worked by Tony Mamo.
And I know some people aren't fans of LLSR, but find someone who actually uses them and wishes they had stayed hydraulic.... It's rare. The valve follows the cam profile so much more precisely you get more out of the cam. And there's no price premium. You don't need adjustable rockers, the lifters are 400 a set, the cam is the same price, and the pushrods and springs. Only thing extra is shims to go under the rocker pedestals to get to zero lash. That's it. Like 100 for the shim pack.
Bottom line -- OP uses top shelf heads, moderate LLSR cam, good intake and exhaust, he'll run tremendously good.
I've run fourth from 30 up and pulled guys in second. You CAN preserve a really strong midrange and get great top end power and it's liveable. But you gotta do what the OP is thinking -- put your money in the heads. Then you can hit your power goals with less cam. You can compare my cam to PatG recipe to 500 and see mines smaller - and I made power through a nine inch with 4.11, not a stock ten bolt. PatG at the time, best heads available were the AFR205's, and -- hand worked by Tony Mamo.
And I know some people aren't fans of LLSR, but find someone who actually uses them and wishes they had stayed hydraulic.... It's rare. The valve follows the cam profile so much more precisely you get more out of the cam. And there's no price premium. You don't need adjustable rockers, the lifters are 400 a set, the cam is the same price, and the pushrods and springs. Only thing extra is shims to go under the rocker pedestals to get to zero lash. That's it. Like 100 for the shim pack.
Bottom line -- OP uses top shelf heads, moderate LLSR cam, good intake and exhaust, he'll run tremendously good.
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Joined: Sep 2004
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You should really be looking at my MMS 223 heads....perform similar to my more expensive MMS 220 heads but with a much lower cost of admission. A little more than budget heads but with Mamo quality and design attached which warrants a much larger premium than I am charging
Even with upgrade springs, ti retainers, cc'ed and milled to optimize your compression ratio your only looking at $2400 with all the upgrades already factored into the price ($2750 if you opt for the lighter hollow stem intake valves which are pricey but well worth it on a combo that sees north of 6500 on a regular basis).
A ported OEM casting can't compete....it will never be as efficient and provide you with the airspeed in the clean sheet design. Air speed is every bit as important as total airflow when it comes to making power....the added speed increases the inertia of the charge and fills the cylinder later and longer....also it's much less sensitive to reversion as it's much more difficult to reverse the direction of a higher speed column of air than it is a lower speed column of air. I could go on for quite awhile about the merits of a clean sheet efficient design....once you go this route you would never consider a ported stock casting ever again.
This is a really good thread covering my MMS 223 heads if you're unfamiliar of haven't seen it yet
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...man-heads.html
If you have any questions let me know....I have them in stock....lead times are only a couple of weeks or so factoring in milling them to each indiciduals needs and handling all the finish work and assembly
Cheers,
Tony
__________________
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
Last edited by Tony @ Mamo Motorsports; Oct 4, 2017 at 12:31 AM.
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
How about great heads for a decent price?!
You should really be looking at my MMS 223 heads....perform similar to my more expensive MMS 220 heads but with a much lower cost of admission. A little more than budget heads but with Mamo quality and design attached which warrants a much larger premium than I am charging
Even with upgrade springs, ti retainers, cc'ed and milled to optimize your compression ratio your only looking at $2400 with all the upgrades already factored into the price ($2750 if you opt for the lighter hollow stem intake valves which are pricey but well worth it on a combo that sees north of 6500 on a regular basis).
A ported OEM casting can't compete....it will never be as efficient and provide you with the airspeed in the clean sheet design. Air speed is every bit as important as total airflow when it comes to making power....the added speed increases the inertia of the charge and fills the cylinder later and longer....also it's much less sensitive to reversion as it's much more difficult to reverse the direction of a higher speed column of air than it is a lower speed column of air. I could go on for quite awhile about the merits of a clean sheet efficient design....once you go this route you would never consider a ported stock casting ever again.
This is a really good thread covering my MMS 223 heads if you're unfamiliar of haven't seen it yet
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...man-heads.html
If you have any questions let me know....I have them in stock....lead times are only a couple of weeks or so factoring in milling them to each indiciduals needs and handling all the finish work and assembly
Cheers,
Tony
You should really be looking at my MMS 223 heads....perform similar to my more expensive MMS 220 heads but with a much lower cost of admission. A little more than budget heads but with Mamo quality and design attached which warrants a much larger premium than I am charging
Even with upgrade springs, ti retainers, cc'ed and milled to optimize your compression ratio your only looking at $2400 with all the upgrades already factored into the price ($2750 if you opt for the lighter hollow stem intake valves which are pricey but well worth it on a combo that sees north of 6500 on a regular basis).
A ported OEM casting can't compete....it will never be as efficient and provide you with the airspeed in the clean sheet design. Air speed is every bit as important as total airflow when it comes to making power....the added speed increases the inertia of the charge and fills the cylinder later and longer....also it's much less sensitive to reversion as it's much more difficult to reverse the direction of a higher speed column of air than it is a lower speed column of air. I could go on for quite awhile about the merits of a clean sheet efficient design....once you go this route you would never consider a ported stock casting ever again.
This is a really good thread covering my MMS 223 heads if you're unfamiliar of haven't seen it yet
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...man-heads.html
If you have any questions let me know....I have them in stock....lead times are only a couple of weeks or so factoring in milling them to each indiciduals needs and handling all the finish work and assembly
Cheers,
Tony
Ive mentioned before, Its gonna be after xmas before i can buy anything, i still need coil overs this winter, and have a kid on the way now
I am curious, I have 91oct on pump here, and in planning my chamber size, i need to decide what the most Im willing to run for compression is. DarthV8r has been super helpful lately and ive have learned quite a bit coming from a FI world to this. Something he mentioned is having u hand work heads to eliminate any hot spots or areas which could cause detonation. Im debating something like a 59cc-62cc with a .040 head gasket, which should be around 11.5:1 compression. Does this math work? and would i be able to run this with 91? would i gain much from water/meth?
I didnt see anything about the MMS223, Ill look into them, that price is right around where I want to be. for that price i get heads, valves, springs, retainers, locks? would liekly be looking for around 600" lift cam, and LLSR lifter set up.
Thread Starter
Teching In
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This is a really good thread covering my MMS 223 heads if you're unfamiliar of haven't seen it yet
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...man-heads.html
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
The only issue i have so far, is adding up these heads, with an LLSR set up and a FAST 102 with throttlebody is $6500.00 USD, which is like $100k converted to CAD (just kidding, actually about $8100) which is more than i want to spend.
Tony any chance u do a combo kit or anything to save some dollars? Ill post my perspective build list so you can see what you think i need/dont need.
Mamo Heads with:
.650" Springs
In Valves
Ex Valves
Ti Retainers / Locks
Fast LSXR 102 with:
Gaskets
Fast Fuel Rail
FAST Coolant Pipe/Plug Kit
Nick Willaims 102 Throttle Body
Injectors
Cometic Head Gasket Set
Jesel Adjustable Rocker Arms
Cam Motion Titan Cam
Cam Motion LLSR Lifters
Cam Motion Hardened Cromoly Push Rods 5/16"
Tony any chance u do a combo kit or anything to save some dollars? Ill post my perspective build list so you can see what you think i need/dont need.
Mamo Heads with:
.650" Springs
In Valves
Ex Valves
Ti Retainers / Locks
Fast LSXR 102 with:
Gaskets
Fast Fuel Rail
FAST Coolant Pipe/Plug Kit
Nick Willaims 102 Throttle Body
Injectors
Cometic Head Gasket Set
Jesel Adjustable Rocker Arms
Cam Motion Titan Cam
Cam Motion LLSR Lifters
Cam Motion Hardened Cromoly Push Rods 5/16"
The tfs flow 220 as cast nearly exactly the same and we sell them for $1950 with the ti retainers and .650 lift springs. You dont need a solid roller either. New lobes out by texas speed prove that new design is better, negating the need for $400+ lifters and any adj rocker arms or shims.
Alot less expensive option with off shelf parts that would be to your doorstep in a week. Fast 102/102 and a 230s cam and youd be done.
Your headers would hold you back as well as that vararam though. Need some quality headers like dynatech, stainless works, kooks or arh and nice X pipe then a halltech intake. It would be a killer setup on a very good budget.
Alot less expensive option with off shelf parts that would be to your doorstep in a week. Fast 102/102 and a 230s cam and youd be done.
Your headers would hold you back as well as that vararam though. Need some quality headers like dynatech, stainless works, kooks or arh and nice X pipe then a halltech intake. It would be a killer setup on a very good budget.