Granatelli Plug wires over 15 rwhp gain??
03-11-2011 | 08:50 AM
#161
On The Tree
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 155
Likes: 5
From: Los Angeles
Wow. You my friend are an idiot. Monster cables are a joke. But if you want to justify the money you spent on it by seeing "graininess" in a digital signal on everything not overpriced 60+ dollars then go for it. Nobody cares. Your anecdotal evidence is going up against a tsunami of tests done by hundreds if not thousands of others online and all come to the conclusion that while they may have a better jacket, a 5 dollar no-name online cable can get the job done just as well.
And what's being discussed here is physics. Numbers. There is no uncertainty here. You're debating whether 50V matters when talking about tens of thousands. Is the Gran cable better? Sure. Is 50V worth the extra hundred bucks or whatever over something like an MSD cable? I think it can be safely said "no". If you're teetering on the edge where 50V makes a difference, you would not only have to test and ensure each coil and wire are within your 50V range but the lifespan would be pretty limited as the spark plugs would deteriorate and require more than that 50V soon enough. You'd have to get bigger coils so your range was wider and then you're back to square 1 not needing that 50V at a premium cost.
This is no longer a debate based on anecdotal evidence or dyno numbers. It's just simple math and common sense. You're paying 100 bucks more for 0.25% more voltage to the spark plug. As an appearance mod, go for it if you want to. As a performance mod, everyone with a brain will just walk slowly backwards away from you, so as to not startle you
EDIT: had to fix the quote tags.
And what's being discussed here is physics. Numbers. There is no uncertainty here. You're debating whether 50V matters when talking about tens of thousands. Is the Gran cable better? Sure. Is 50V worth the extra hundred bucks or whatever over something like an MSD cable? I think it can be safely said "no". If you're teetering on the edge where 50V makes a difference, you would not only have to test and ensure each coil and wire are within your 50V range but the lifespan would be pretty limited as the spark plugs would deteriorate and require more than that 50V soon enough. You'd have to get bigger coils so your range was wider and then you're back to square 1 not needing that 50V at a premium cost.
This is no longer a debate based on anecdotal evidence or dyno numbers. It's just simple math and common sense. You're paying 100 bucks more for 0.25% more voltage to the spark plug. As an appearance mod, go for it if you want to. As a performance mod, everyone with a brain will just walk slowly backwards away from you, so as to not startle you
EDIT: had to fix the quote tags.
03-11-2011 | 09:58 AM
#162
03-11-2011 | 11:36 AM
#163
well, you can debate build quality and warranty value... But that's not what the thread was about. In any case, I dont think anyone is going to buy them for the 50V increase in spark voltage for Ls1 applications. They will buy them for either the build quality or the warranty value. Stick to that as your selling point and nobody will consider it all marketing BS or lies or anything else that's negative.
03-11-2011 | 03:12 PM
#164
On The Tree
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 155
Likes: 5
From: Los Angeles
I do not remember saying this - which post?
Originally Posted by Granatelli
Fact: The voltage drop across these wires will be 4mV for Gran. 50v for "stock".
I find that I can't win debates like that - soon enough more guys will post their own dyno numbers and driveablilty stories
Remember however - this post started because a magazine did a test to prove Granatelli wrong and ended up finding out we were dead right
We were not and still are not advertisers in that magazine - it was just a fact piece
Originally Posted by Granatelli
Fact: The voltage drop across these wires will be 4mV for Gran. 50v for "stock".
I find that I can't win debates like that - soon enough more guys will post their own dyno numbers and driveablilty stories
well, you can debate build quality and warranty value... But that's not what the thread was about. In any case, I dont think anyone is going to buy them for the 50V increase in spark voltage for Ls1 applications. They will buy them for either the build quality or the warranty value. Stick to that as your selling point and nobody will consider it all marketing BS or lies or anything else that's negative.
We were not and still are not advertisers in that magazine - it was just a fact piece
03-11-2011 | 03:29 PM
#165
It is over halfway through post #141 on the page before this one.
I would love to see more independent tests, and hope they are done proper with:
1) standardized fluid/intake temps
2) no less than 3 runs with each type
3) NEW stock/MSD/brand X wires versus NEW Granatelli wires
4) ohms for each wire off and each that went on to help rule out an insufficient wire
But chances are it will be results more along the lines of a guy replacing his misfiring wires and noting the gains or some asinine justification of a purchase by "butt dyno" results.
Again, not knocking the product just being highly skeptical of gains regarding a 5%+ RWHP increase from a small increase of voltage at the plug. I will leave this thread alone now, but I would be interested in seeing factual scientific results if they become available.
People shouldn't even bother with "yeah man feels like she picked up 10hp easy"
I would love to see more independent tests, and hope they are done proper with:
1) standardized fluid/intake temps
2) no less than 3 runs with each type
3) NEW stock/MSD/brand X wires versus NEW Granatelli wires
4) ohms for each wire off and each that went on to help rule out an insufficient wire
But chances are it will be results more along the lines of a guy replacing his misfiring wires and noting the gains or some asinine justification of a purchase by "butt dyno" results.
Again, not knocking the product just being highly skeptical of gains regarding a 5%+ RWHP increase from a small increase of voltage at the plug. I will leave this thread alone now, but I would be interested in seeing factual scientific results if they become available.
People shouldn't even bother with "yeah man feels like she picked up 10hp easy"
03-14-2011 | 08:54 AM
#167
I got my wires. They look great! I likes blue....
No time to install them, I'm about to do sound stuff in Miami.
I'm gonna try to get a new set of LS7 wires and do a dyno day with them. I also want to try out these WeaponX spark plugs I got. Zero Ohms, no resistor in them. I'm assuming they'll be at least as good as NGK's.
No time to install them, I'm about to do sound stuff in Miami.
I'm gonna try to get a new set of LS7 wires and do a dyno day with them. I also want to try out these WeaponX spark plugs I got. Zero Ohms, no resistor in them. I'm assuming they'll be at least as good as NGK's.
03-14-2011 | 10:59 AM
#168
If I have the raw specs and some experiment done in the real world suggests that those specs are doing something they shouldn't, then I dont believe the experiment unless it was done by me, and even then I start to think I did something wrong.
50V out of 20k or so wont give you measurable HP gain. The fact that the test they did somehow gave them those numbers on the dyno suggests either testing error (what is the accuracy of a dyno in what it measures anyway? plus, how many pulls, and what method was chosen to pick the pull to use in the comparison ...etc), or an apples to oranges comparison. Testing against old plugs and old wires against new plugs and/or new wires is looking for the absolute best case scenario and so likely giving far more than 50v difference in spark voltage.
You can't have the math say one thing and "tests" say another and expect people to trust the tests. Trust math. It may be able to describe things that aren't real, but it never lies. The math says these wires provide .25% more voltage to the spark plugs than competing wires. That's it.
50V out of 20k or so wont give you measurable HP gain. The fact that the test they did somehow gave them those numbers on the dyno suggests either testing error (what is the accuracy of a dyno in what it measures anyway? plus, how many pulls, and what method was chosen to pick the pull to use in the comparison ...etc), or an apples to oranges comparison. Testing against old plugs and old wires against new plugs and/or new wires is looking for the absolute best case scenario and so likely giving far more than 50v difference in spark voltage.
You can't have the math say one thing and "tests" say another and expect people to trust the tests. Trust math. It may be able to describe things that aren't real, but it never lies. The math says these wires provide .25% more voltage to the spark plugs than competing wires. That's it.
03-14-2011 | 12:37 PM
#169
On The Tree
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 155
Likes: 5
From: Los Angeles
It is over halfway through post #141 on the page before this one.
I would love to see more independent tests, and hope they are done proper with:
1) standardized fluid/intake temps
2) no less than 3 runs with each type
3) NEW stock/MSD/brand X wires versus NEW Granatelli wires
4) ohms for each wire off and each that went on to help rule out an insufficient wire
But chances are it will be results more along the lines of a guy replacing his misfiring wires and noting the gains or some asinine justification of a purchase by "butt dyno" results.
Again, not knocking the product just being highly skeptical of gains regarding a 5%+ RWHP increase from a small increase of voltage at the plug. I will leave this thread alone now, but I would be interested in seeing factual scientific results if they become available.
People shouldn't even bother with "yeah man feels like she picked up 10hp easy"
I would love to see more independent tests, and hope they are done proper with:
1) standardized fluid/intake temps
2) no less than 3 runs with each type
3) NEW stock/MSD/brand X wires versus NEW Granatelli wires
4) ohms for each wire off and each that went on to help rule out an insufficient wire
But chances are it will be results more along the lines of a guy replacing his misfiring wires and noting the gains or some asinine justification of a purchase by "butt dyno" results.
Again, not knocking the product just being highly skeptical of gains regarding a 5%+ RWHP increase from a small increase of voltage at the plug. I will leave this thread alone now, but I would be interested in seeing factual scientific results if they become available.
People shouldn't even bother with "yeah man feels like she picked up 10hp easy"
I got my wires. They look great! I likes blue....
No time to install them, I'm about to do sound stuff in Miami.
I'm gonna try to get a new set of LS7 wires and do a dyno day with them. I also want to try out these WeaponX spark plugs I got. Zero Ohms, no resistor in them. I'm assuming they'll be at least as good as NGK's.
No time to install them, I'm about to do sound stuff in Miami.
I'm gonna try to get a new set of LS7 wires and do a dyno day with them. I also want to try out these WeaponX spark plugs I got. Zero Ohms, no resistor in them. I'm assuming they'll be at least as good as NGK's.
- keep us postedIf I have the raw specs and some experiment done in the real world suggests that those specs are doing something they shouldn't, then I don’t believe the experiment unless it was done by me, and even then I start to think I did something wrong.
50V out of 20k or so won’t give you measurable HP gain. The fact that the test they did somehow gave them those numbers on the dyno suggests either testing error (what is the accuracy of a dyno in what it measures anyway? Plus, how many pulls, and what method was chosen to pick the pull to use in the comparison ...etc), or an apples to oranges comparison. Testing against old plugs and old wires against new plugs and/or new wires is looking for the absolute best case scenario and so likely giving far more than 50v difference in spark voltage.
You can't have the math say one thing and "tests" say another and expect people to trust the tests. Trust math. It may be able to describe things that aren't real, but it never lies. The math says these wires provide .25% more voltage to the spark plugs than competing wires. That's it.
50V out of 20k or so won’t give you measurable HP gain. The fact that the test they did somehow gave them those numbers on the dyno suggests either testing error (what is the accuracy of a dyno in what it measures anyway? Plus, how many pulls, and what method was chosen to pick the pull to use in the comparison ...etc), or an apples to oranges comparison. Testing against old plugs and old wires against new plugs and/or new wires is looking for the absolute best case scenario and so likely giving far more than 50v difference in spark voltage.
You can't have the math say one thing and "tests" say another and expect people to trust the tests. Trust math. It may be able to describe things that aren't real, but it never lies. The math says these wires provide .25% more voltage to the spark plugs than competing wires. That's it.
This past weekend they ran 6.49 in Pro Stock - 20 years ago they could not do that with nitro methane and a blower
The math said the object could not accelerate rest to 200 - what happened with that math
03-16-2011 | 10:43 AM
#170
I dont know. It might be a long shot but if you had some stock wires with a huge amount of wear and tear on them if may be possible. However if your talking new stock wires vs aftermarket i would say no a chance.
03-16-2011 | 07:02 PM
#171
On The Tree
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 155
Likes: 5
From: Los Angeles
03-16-2011 | 09:52 PM
#172
math didn't say those things were impossible. Obviously they are so those saying it couldn't be done were lacking imagination or simply the design and materials to make it happen at the time. And so they based whatever math they used to backup their claims on that. It wasn't wrong, it was just based on wrong assumptions or those assumptions became moot when something new was developed.
But in light of the video showing new wires vs gran's and the gran's showing a 10hp increase (even though 1 pull can still constitute a fluke), lets assume it's legit.
So why is it giving a 10hp increase? Is it the <50v increase to the spark plug? I seriously doubt it. So what else could be effecting spark performance?
I think it might have something to do with capacitance of the wire. Gran's wire may be very low capacitance because it's solid core and this will effect how the coil discharges. Stock wires are stranded (probably a lot of strands for your higher end wires with lower resistance) and this increases capacitance.
I still dont think the voltage is responsible for the better performance (assuming that performance is real), but rather another aspect of the design of the wire being solid core and metal rather than the conventional plug wire design.
But the video has made me think that this is less BS than before.
But in light of the video showing new wires vs gran's and the gran's showing a 10hp increase (even though 1 pull can still constitute a fluke), lets assume it's legit.
So why is it giving a 10hp increase? Is it the <50v increase to the spark plug? I seriously doubt it. So what else could be effecting spark performance?
I think it might have something to do with capacitance of the wire. Gran's wire may be very low capacitance because it's solid core and this will effect how the coil discharges. Stock wires are stranded (probably a lot of strands for your higher end wires with lower resistance) and this increases capacitance.
I still dont think the voltage is responsible for the better performance (assuming that performance is real), but rather another aspect of the design of the wire being solid core and metal rather than the conventional plug wire design.
But the video has made me think that this is less BS than before.
03-16-2011 | 10:04 PM
#173
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 309
Likes: 1
From: Australia
03-17-2011 | 12:16 AM
#175
except all that is written by magnacor.... goto nology and they'll give you a different story. Goto MSD and they will say something else.
what we need is someone not being paid by any of these companies to do an extensive test between 3 like a mythbusters episode. Not only multiple dyno pulls...but build a fixture that will "spark" the wires to simulate a year's worth of driving ...then dyno test again.
Since that will never happen. it's a toss up. at least with gran's if they break down like magnacor wants you to believe they will, you are covered by warranty. Not saying i'd buy a set at the price they charge, but it does say something when you have a lifetime warranty on a product that is pretty much a consumable part in oem form.
what we need is someone not being paid by any of these companies to do an extensive test between 3 like a mythbusters episode. Not only multiple dyno pulls...but build a fixture that will "spark" the wires to simulate a year's worth of driving ...then dyno test again.
Since that will never happen. it's a toss up. at least with gran's if they break down like magnacor wants you to believe they will, you are covered by warranty. Not saying i'd buy a set at the price they charge, but it does say something when you have a lifetime warranty on a product that is pretty much a consumable part in oem form.
03-17-2011 | 12:32 AM
#176
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 309
Likes: 1
From: Australia
all the NHRA guys have heard of firecore50 and if they are using them well that tells you something.
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/...5366111&page=0
testimonial page:
https://www.customwiresets.com/pages.php?pageid=25
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/...5366111&page=0
It took 4 long years, but Custom Wire Sets's FireCore50 8.5mm Ignition wires got their first win last weekend in the NHRA. Tim Wilkerson's T/F Funny Car was set on kill for the weekend. The FireCore50's are being ran on Matt Smith and Angie McBrides Pro Stock motorcycles, Jack Beckman's, Ron Capp's, and Tim Wilkerson's T/F Funny cars, and Cory McClenathan and Tony Schumacher's T/F Dragsters. Beckman ordered them after winning at Norwalk, and Tim W. had them on since Denver. Cory Mac has ran them for the last 5 races, getting several quickest rounds with them. Last weekend in Denver was Capp's and Shoe's first races with them on. Congrats to both teams. I had told the teams about Moparts.com, so they might start lurking around . This is pretty huge news for us, and we want to thank the Moparts.com membership for trusting us as well. Congrats Tim on the win, and Tony for the runner up, especially against Larry Dixon, as both teams had built up the rivalry since the beginning of the year, in light of Tony's whole crew leaving to Al Anabi.
https://www.customwiresets.com/pages.php?pageid=25
03-17-2011 | 01:41 AM
#177
Teching In
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
From: KY
except all that is written by magnacor.... goto nology and they'll give you a different story. Goto MSD and they will say something else.
what we need is someone not being paid by any of these companies to do an extensive test between 3 like a mythbusters episode. Not only multiple dyno pulls...but build a fixture that will "spark" the wires to simulate a year's worth of driving ...then dyno test again.
Since that will never happen. it's a toss up. at least with gran's if they break down like magnacor wants you to believe they will, you are covered by warranty. Not saying i'd buy a set at the price they charge, but it does say something when you have a lifetime warranty on a product that is pretty much a consumable part in oem form.
what we need is someone not being paid by any of these companies to do an extensive test between 3 like a mythbusters episode. Not only multiple dyno pulls...but build a fixture that will "spark" the wires to simulate a year's worth of driving ...then dyno test again.
Since that will never happen. it's a toss up. at least with gran's if they break down like magnacor wants you to believe they will, you are covered by warranty. Not saying i'd buy a set at the price they charge, but it does say something when you have a lifetime warranty on a product that is pretty much a consumable part in oem form.
Maybe we should contact myth busters and see if they can help us solve this myth!!
Sorry worthless post but I couldn't resist, i'll still end up getting a set of these next wire change
03-17-2011 | 10:15 PM
#178
On The Tree
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 155
Likes: 5
From: Los Angeles
except all that is written by magnacor.... goto nology and they'll give you a different story. Goto MSD and they will say something else.
what we need is someone not being paid by any of these companies to do an extensive test between 3 like a mythbusters episode. Not only multiple dyno pulls...but build a fixture that will "spark" the wires to simulate a year's worth of driving ...then dyno test again.
Since that will never happen. it's a toss up. at least with gran's if they break down like magnacor wants you to believe they will, you are covered by warranty. Not saying i'd buy a set at the price they charge, but it does say something when you have a lifetime warranty on a product that is pretty much a consumable part in oem form.
what we need is someone not being paid by any of these companies to do an extensive test between 3 like a mythbusters episode. Not only multiple dyno pulls...but build a fixture that will "spark" the wires to simulate a year's worth of driving ...then dyno test again.
Since that will never happen. it's a toss up. at least with gran's if they break down like magnacor wants you to believe they will, you are covered by warranty. Not saying i'd buy a set at the price they charge, but it does say something when you have a lifetime warranty on a product that is pretty much a consumable part in oem form.
At Granatelli - we love Magnacor - go to their wedsite - they say the only thing better than thier wire would be a solid core wire - so they are saying the Granatelli wire is better. They make claim to EMI and RFI but our patneted product gets rid of that
- So folk...
03-17-2011 | 10:36 PM
#179
03-18-2011 | 01:15 AM
#180
I dont get it, you guys do 140 posts about how there is no way they will gain power and then most of you still refute it and ask for all these other tests after 4 different vids of 4 different platforms all gained. It makes sense logically and the gains increase with RPMs/boost levels. Why do you guys think a lot of the boosted guys go with MSD coils/wires? More spark and around 50 ohms of resistance for better spark