Puzzling problem - please read!
10-04-2007, 08:29 PM
#101
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bent valves aren't going to add any additional rotating resistance, so you won't feel it harder to turn if your valves are hanging open, if anything they won't allow the cylinder to build compression so it might actually turn easier.
try to refrain from the "see how bad my life gets" statements, we've all been there. the first motor i built when i was 17 had the cam timing off and bent almost all the valves, i had no help and didn't know what to do. you learn from your mistakes. now i work at a dealership and i think of that first motor i fk'd up every time i do a timing belt.
try to refrain from the "see how bad my life gets" statements, we've all been there. the first motor i built when i was 17 had the cam timing off and bent almost all the valves, i had no help and didn't know what to do. you learn from your mistakes. now i work at a dealership and i think of that first motor i fk'd up every time i do a timing belt.
Ok here yall this is my dad:
We originally had the timing off, but me and Charlie fixed it after we realised it was off. However we turned it by hand with a screwdriver by the bolts on the back of the crank. How did we bend the valves? I don't think we could have done that, and he corrected the timing and it was dead on when he tried to start it 2 weeks ago.
However this was a long time ago, this is why the cam pin broke, he pulled the cam gear off and it bent the pin just the wrong way and it broke it. We didn't even have the oil pan or anything on at this time, just the heads and cam and timing.
After we did correct the timing, it turned over SMOOTHLY, so why did it turn over so smooth for having bent valves?
We originally had the timing off, but me and Charlie fixed it after we realised it was off. However we turned it by hand with a screwdriver by the bolts on the back of the crank. How did we bend the valves? I don't think we could have done that, and he corrected the timing and it was dead on when he tried to start it 2 weeks ago.
However this was a long time ago, this is why the cam pin broke, he pulled the cam gear off and it bent the pin just the wrong way and it broke it. We didn't even have the oil pan or anything on at this time, just the heads and cam and timing.
After we did correct the timing, it turned over SMOOTHLY, so why did it turn over so smooth for having bent valves?
10-04-2007, 08:33 PM
#103
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Ok here yall this is my dad:
We originally had the timing off, but me and Charlie fixed it after we realised it was off. However we turned it by hand with a screwdriver by the bolts on the back of the crank. How did we bend the valves? I don't think we could have done that, and he corrected the timing and it was dead on when he tried to start it 2 weeks ago.
However this was a long time ago, this is why the cam pin broke, he pulled the cam gear off and it bent the pin just the wrong way and it broke it. We didn't even have the oil pan or anything on at this time, just the heads and cam and timing.
After we did correct the timing, it turned over SMOOTHLY, so why did it turn over so smooth for having bent valves?
We originally had the timing off, but me and Charlie fixed it after we realised it was off. However we turned it by hand with a screwdriver by the bolts on the back of the crank. How did we bend the valves? I don't think we could have done that, and he corrected the timing and it was dead on when he tried to start it 2 weeks ago.
However this was a long time ago, this is why the cam pin broke, he pulled the cam gear off and it bent the pin just the wrong way and it broke it. We didn't even have the oil pan or anything on at this time, just the heads and cam and timing.
After we did correct the timing, it turned over SMOOTHLY, so why did it turn over so smooth for having bent valves?
OK I see. Well I think you have the thought of a bent valve stem, but in this case, probably more likely it nicked just the valve, causing it not to seat properly, and not making a complete seal to the head. But thats not going to be noticeable with just the cover off, and it wouldnt be all of them.
But assuming this was the case, youre probably not going to have bent valves in every cylinder, and it doesnt sound like its hitting compression anywhere in the turn over.
Im almost wondering if you can wire a starter backwards
10-04-2007, 09:39 PM
#104
(shaking head in disbelief)
I assume by that you mean "yes, it's an adjustable timing set."
The Rollmaster I saw on Texas Speed's site have several crank keyways machined into them, each one dials in a given amount of cam timing advance or retard.
Assuming you have one of those, which keyway did you install the crank gear onto?
I assume by that you mean "yes, it's an adjustable timing set."
The Rollmaster I saw on Texas Speed's site have several crank keyways machined into them, each one dials in a given amount of cam timing advance or retard.
Assuming you have one of those, which keyway did you install the crank gear onto?
10-04-2007, 09:46 PM
#105
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(shaking head in disbelief)
I assume by that you mean "yes, it's an adjustable timing set."
The Rollmaster I saw on Texas Speed's site have several crank keyways machined into them, each one dials in a given amount of cam timing advance or retard.
Assuming you have one of those, which keyway did you install the crank gear onto?
I assume by that you mean "yes, it's an adjustable timing set."
The Rollmaster I saw on Texas Speed's site have several crank keyways machined into them, each one dials in a given amount of cam timing advance or retard.
Assuming you have one of those, which keyway did you install the crank gear onto?
10-04-2007, 10:34 PM
#112
On Gen-1 SBCs, adjustable timing sets had three different crank keyways...each had a unique symbol like a circle, a triangle, or a square.
The cam sprocket only had one dowel pin hole, but had corresponding circle/triangle/square symbols in the right locations.
Basically, you decided if you wanted the cam retarded, advanced, or straight up based on the cam's grind. Most newer cams came with 4deg advance already ground in, so you just installed the timing set on the straight up markings. If you installed the crank gear on the triangle keyway, you used the cam gear's triangle as your 6 o'clock pointer.
When finished installing, you checked the results with a timing wheel. Most common screwup was mismatching the symbols...crank gear on the triangle, cam gear indexed on the circle symbol for example.
I dunno nothing about no Rollmaster timing sets, hopefully this info will point you in some useful direction.
The cam sprocket only had one dowel pin hole, but had corresponding circle/triangle/square symbols in the right locations.
Basically, you decided if you wanted the cam retarded, advanced, or straight up based on the cam's grind. Most newer cams came with 4deg advance already ground in, so you just installed the timing set on the straight up markings. If you installed the crank gear on the triangle keyway, you used the cam gear's triangle as your 6 o'clock pointer.
When finished installing, you checked the results with a timing wheel. Most common screwup was mismatching the symbols...crank gear on the triangle, cam gear indexed on the circle symbol for example.
I dunno nothing about no Rollmaster timing sets, hopefully this info will point you in some useful direction.
10-04-2007, 10:47 PM
#113
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Hey Tainted ,
I'm sorry for your frustration.
Sounds like bent valves but could still be cam timing p/r length etc. etc.
Just remember, no matter what you do , you MUST find out what caused this to happen in the first place or you will be out even more money and your car will be down longer yet.
If you are new at this (we all have had a beginning and some hard knocks along the way) and you don't have all of the proper tools and experience, I strongly suggest you save up some extra cash and pay a qualified tech to go through the entire set up, i.e. valve timing, push rod length, p/v valve clearence etc.
Mabe this person would be willing to have you watch to see if you missed a step along the way.
Good Luck hope you get it running soon.
I'm sorry for your frustration.
Sounds like bent valves but could still be cam timing p/r length etc. etc.
Just remember, no matter what you do , you MUST find out what caused this to happen in the first place or you will be out even more money and your car will be down longer yet.
If you are new at this (we all have had a beginning and some hard knocks along the way) and you don't have all of the proper tools and experience, I strongly suggest you save up some extra cash and pay a qualified tech to go through the entire set up, i.e. valve timing, push rod length, p/v valve clearence etc.
Mabe this person would be willing to have you watch to see if you missed a step along the way.
Good Luck hope you get it running soon.
10-04-2007, 10:50 PM
#114
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What size valves do you need? I might know a place that has good deals on Rev Stainless Valves, or if you need stock size I have a complete set here you can have.
10-04-2007, 10:56 PM
#115
Before I check out for the night, this article has a good picture of the Rollmaster multi-keyway crank gear. If you still have pics of your engine parts and build, go back and compare.
http://www.highperformancepontiac.co...ii/index1.html
http://www.highperformancepontiac.co...ii/index1.html
10-04-2007, 11:00 PM
#116
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x2//// i would highly recomend this.....ive got a question you said it was dot to dot....well it can still be 180 out....and thats what it sounds like ive seen it thousands of times....Did you for 100% sure have #1 on TDC when you lined up the dots??????if not it will do everything your explaining.....do a leakdown with the rockers off....if its good re check the timing......
10-05-2007, 09:43 AM
#119
May I just throw something out there so you can be prepared for a possible bent valve(s)? I'm goin to assume you just said yes....
In bending a valve, you also run the risk of bending the valve guide as well. Now, I don't know how many this may or may not have happened to, but I wanted to throw that out there so you aren't surprised if you take it to a machine shop and they say the guides need to be replaced (or they're bent enough that the head is unuseable). It's a slight possibility, but a possibility nonetheless. I know it's a lot to handle at this point, but it's better to be fully aware of what could have happened.
If i was at home (across the country), I believe I have a stock head that is laying around that I would gladly pull the valves off and send em to you. However, I think that's a bit too much of a job to ask of my family to do for me
In bending a valve, you also run the risk of bending the valve guide as well. Now, I don't know how many this may or may not have happened to, but I wanted to throw that out there so you aren't surprised if you take it to a machine shop and they say the guides need to be replaced (or they're bent enough that the head is unuseable). It's a slight possibility, but a possibility nonetheless. I know it's a lot to handle at this point, but it's better to be fully aware of what could have happened.
If i was at home (across the country), I believe I have a stock head that is laying around that I would gladly pull the valves off and send em to you. However, I think that's a bit too much of a job to ask of my family to do for me
10-05-2007, 01:42 PM
#120
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definitely do a leakdown with the rockers off to make sure your not just off 180 degrees. Unfortunately however, it's sounding more and more like you might of bent hte intake valves even with light contact turning it over.