more afr delays
more afr delays Talked to AFR today. still no samples, production dates, dyno tests.
sure sounds like what i went through with afr ford heads(delayed amost
a year from when i heard about them)
sure sounds like what i went through with afr ford heads(delayed amost
a year from when i heard about them)
TECH Junkie
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From: At the office
Originally Posted by OWENMUSTANG
Talked to AFR today. still no samples, production dates, dyno tests.
sure sounds like what i went through with afr ford heads(delayed amost
a year from when i heard about them)
sure sounds like what i went through with afr ford heads(delayed amost
a year from when i heard about them)
Unconfirmed rumor (from what I heard) is that they found out these heads weren't flowing as good as some of the better LS1 heads on the market.
I don't know if this is true or not....
i think most buyers see cfm and not the velocity portion of it and when they see the price of afr's they'll shy away...only the hardcore racer that really knows what he wants will buy these heads...everyone else will pay 1/2 price for quality but not the BEST stuff on the market JMO
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From: Albuquerque NM - The Land of 8000ft DA
Originally Posted by Cstraub
Well I'll put the flow rumor to bed because its not true... I happen to know for a fact they are waiting on a supplier for locks and retainers!!!! Hmmm
CStraub
CStraub
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From: Working in the shop 24/7
Originally Posted by verbs
Supposedly EDC has a set they were using?
Unconfirmed rumor (from what I heard) is that they found out these heads weren't flowing as good as some of the better LS1 heads on the market.
I don't know if this is true or not....
Unconfirmed rumor (from what I heard) is that they found out these heads weren't flowing as good as some of the better LS1 heads on the market.
I don't know if this is true or not....
3.910 bore
1-7/8 pipe
Custom Entrance
SF600
AFR 205 cc intake runner
.20: = 140
.30: = 203
.40: = 250
.50: = 283
.55: = 294
.60: = 301
.65: = 300
- vs -
231cc ST3 LS1
.20: = 138
.30: = 200
.40: = 251
.50: = 285
.55: = 289
.60: = 291
.65: = 290
You do the math...
~~~
BTW... Chris...
Those billet valve cover spacers are "killer"....
Dez will probably want to try them on Slowhawks engine...
Hope they work with the Jesels stuff...
Ed
Whose S3 LS1 head only flows 291? More like a poor S2, IMO. Did the "S3" LS1 heads have "S3-size" valves (2.05 or bigger that would have hurt flow on a 3.905" bore)? Were the AFR heads flowed right out of the box, were they ported, or are they the CNC version? Not doubting the AFR #s, but if you're gonna compare them to a S2 head, pick a good set to begin with.
Shawn
Shawn
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Verdad Gallardo TECH Resident
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From: Working in the shop 24/7
Originally Posted by SPANKY LS1
Whose S3 LS1 head only flows 291? More like a poor S2, IMO. Did the "S3" LS1 heads have "S3-size" valves (2.05 or bigger that would have hurt flow on a 3.905" bore)? Were the AFR heads flowed right out of the box, were they ported, or are they the CNC version? Not doubting the AFR #s, but if you're gonna compare them to a S2 head, pick a good set to begin with.
Shawn
Shawn
These are figures from a well known shop's ST3 heads and I'm not here to tell names, nor will I ever do that.
As for their configuration, these particular heads had a 2.08 intake valve and a 1.60 exhaust. Now, before you start in, you don't have to tell me the how's and why's of what a 3.910 bore fixture does with this type of cylinder head. I wanted data on this bore size as well as the 4.125 size. Why? Well... since some people "still" think their 346 cubic inch engine needs this type of head, and then purchase them... I checked them... That's all....
Moderator Warning....
The premise to the testing was not to evaluate or critique other people's work. Couldn't care less. I sell "combinations" and not just heads. Most customers might buy a set of heads from me or another source and then get the cam and some peripherals from me. Sooooo.... I don't care whose heads a customer uses as long as I have accurate data... Yes I do sell heads but I am NOT a "CNC Cylinder Head Shop" PERIOD... I sell a lot of custom designed camshafts and other pieces with other people's cylinder heads in order to make a combo work and I require this info to be sure my customers get the best package.
As for the flow figures representing a set of "poor" ST2 heads, well.....So what??? Port volume vs flow... Do the math... If all you look at is numbers... Well... Now I see why people buy the "hype" of big flow numbers and nothing even remotely approaching "common sense" and "logic" will deter them from doing this. The Ford guys learned not to listen to the BS in comparing different shop's flow figures and why they mean absolutely nothing, just like peak dyno numbers. However... these "numbers" (rather than track performance) are what sell parts for some companies so they continue this spew them...
Back to topic...
REMEMBER.... I am testing for a camshaft database... After I compile the data of a few different companies, I can get customers what they need for a cam design.. This is just one example of what I found.... and I posted it..
If it's going to cause people's panties to get in a wad, I'll delete it all and keep my info close to the vest..
REPEAT:
I'm not going to tell anyone whose they are.
That's not why I tested.
I need data for my camshaft designs.
Ed
Originally Posted by EDC
As for their configuration, these particular heads had a 2.08 intake valve and a 1.60 exhaust. Now, before you start in, you don't have to tell me the how's and why's of what a 3.910 bore fixture does with this type of cylinder head. I wanted data on this bore size as well as the 4.125 size. Why? Well... since some people "still" think their 346 cubic inch engine needs this type of head, and then purchase them... I checked them... That's all....
As for the flow figures representing a set of "poor" ST2 heads, well.....So what??? Port volume vs flow... Do the math... If all you look at is numbers... Well... Now I see why people buy the "hype" of big flow numbers and nothing even remotely approaching "common sense" and "logic" will deter them from doing this.
The premise to the testing was not to evaluate or critique other people's work. Couldn't care less.
Last edited by SPANKY LS1; Jan 21, 2004 at 09:42 PM.
Ahh, its good to see you havent changed Spanky. Looks like you still have your head in your ***..... Ed didnt just post the flow #s. He posted flow #s Vs port volume. The AFRs are outflowing the other heads, while having 26cc less port volume. Common sense shows which is the better head.
As for comparing apples to rotton oranges, what else is there to compare the AFRs to? THe whole point is to see if they are better than a stock ported LS1 head.. Isnt it??? All in all, the cylinder head is only as good as the camshaft/tuning allow it to be. Its the combination, not a specific part.........
As for comparing apples to rotton oranges, what else is there to compare the AFRs to? THe whole point is to see if they are better than a stock ported LS1 head.. Isnt it??? All in all, the cylinder head is only as good as the camshaft/tuning allow it to be. Its the combination, not a specific part.........
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From: Albuquerque NM - The Land of 8000ft DA
Originally Posted by SPANKY LS1
You criticize for questioning the numbers, yet you post numbers in an attempt to prove how well the AFRs flow. Those are the only comparisons that I have seen and can use. As far as them being "poor" S2 heads, and "So what", do you really think its a fair comparison to compare a $2500 set of aftermarket heads with a set of ported stockers? Would you compare Trick Flow "High Ports" with E7s? No. You're comparing apples to rotten oranges, not at all a fair comparison. Have you flowed any other S2 LS1 (5.3, 5.7, 6.0 etc) head to compare to? I agree that heads flowed on different benches are not comparable (flow number wise), yet you flowed (by your own admission) a head that is not made to be used on a 3.905 bore, a head that you knew would be handicapped by its HUGE valves on a small bore? Seems to me like you're trying, for some reason, to "build up" the AFR numbers, just my opinion,I don't know you or your business background so don't take it as flaming . I just wonder why someone would compare two vastly different products. (?) The AFR numbers you posted are inline or below most good S2 ported LS1 heads, so the question remains, were the AFR heads as cast, ported, or were they the CNC versions?
You directly compared two heads, "-vs-" and "you do the math" indicates a DIRECT comparison....
You directly compared two heads, "-vs-" and "you do the math" indicates a DIRECT comparison....
Go back and reread the post, he explains what he is doing very clearly and why he is doing it. Do some research on who he is and what he has done in the performance industry before you fly off the handle.
Ed,I'm ready and waiting.
First that nice 90mm intake,
Then a nice Cam for the new motor
Just waiting on those AFR 225cc Heads
The dyno graph for the intake is in the external section..
First that nice 90mm intake,
Then a nice Cam for the new motor
Just waiting on those AFR 225cc Heads
The dyno graph for the intake is in the external section..
Originally Posted by Cammin BeaSSt
Ed didnt just post the flow #s. He posted flow #s Vs port volume. The AFRs are outflowing the other heads, while having 26cc less port volume. Common sense shows which is the better head.
As for comparing apples to rotton oranges, what else is there to compare the AFRs to? THe whole point is to see if they are better than a stock ported LS1 head.. Isnt it??? All in all, the cylinder head is only as good as the camshaft/tuning allow it to be. Its the combination, not a specific part.........
As for comparing apples to rotton oranges, what else is there to compare the AFRs to? THe whole point is to see if they are better than a stock ported LS1 head.. Isnt it??? All in all, the cylinder head is only as good as the camshaft/tuning allow it to be. Its the combination, not a specific part.........
Port volume versus flow numbers? My AS heads flow 10-15cfm more across the board than the AFRs do (albeit on a different bench) with an intake runner of ~217CCs. If the AFR head was ported to 217CCs, what would its flow numbers be? Roughly that of a "good" S2 head? He's comparing it to one head, I'm curious how it compares to others, thats all. Is it common sense that the AS head is better than the AFR head? Not necessarily, thats why I'm asking for more info/comparisons, out of my own curiousity, you know, the point of this board.
And thats your problem. I think your arguing just to argue. As long as the heads were tested on the same bench with the same pieces in the intake and the exhaust its a fair comparison/test.
Go back and reread the post, he explains what he is doing very clearly and why he is doing it. Do some research on who he is and what he has done in the performance industry before you fly off the handle.
Go back and reread the post, he explains what he is doing very clearly and why he is doing it. Do some research on who he is and what he has done in the performance industry before you fly off the handle.
Shawn
Right. I'd like to see the "Head flow shootout" that has been discussed but will never happen. It would bring alot of people down to earth, and make some people kings, IMO.
In any event, to EDC: Good work, despite my skepticism and questioning of the comparison and the results, I do appreciate the work and sharing of information, I really hope that the AFR heads are as advertised.
Shawn
In any event, to EDC: Good work, despite my skepticism and questioning of the comparison and the results, I do appreciate the work and sharing of information, I really hope that the AFR heads are as advertised.
Shawn
Last edited by SPANKY LS1; Jan 21, 2004 at 10:31 PM.
Originally Posted by SPANKY LS1
,So, if I test the heads that my grandma ported with a $3000 S2 head for comparison purposes, it would be a fair/good measure of how the $3000 head flows? No. As I said, I don't know anything about his company, or what he has done in he perfrmance industry. I did not post to that information, I posted regarding this "comparison" asking valid questions, IMO. I haven't flown off the handle, my "cheering section" has already done that.
Shawn
Shawn
Shawn... Your Granny ports heads too?? Wonder if she knows my Granny?
In all seriousness, I think that is a good example though.. we have NO IDEA who's head he is comparing it to.
Ed, thanks for the flow numbers, I appreciate the data.
Could you please enlighten us on the following...
Is the length of the runner in the AFR head the exact same length of the runner in the LS1 head? If will you provide the exact length of each runner?
The reason I ask this is if the runner lengths are different a direct comparison for velocity isn't possible as I understand it. Please EDucate me if I am misunderstanding the concept.
Based on the data provided, I calcuate the velocity ratio (or whatever it's called) for the AFR's at 1.47 and the velocity ratio for the sorry S3's at 1.26, this indicates the AFR's have higher veloctiy provided the runner lengths are the same. Other my calulation is skewed.
FWIW - using the same criteria, I know of some quality LS1/LS6 heads (from several different quailty sponsors) that can pull velocity ratio of ~1.42 which is within a hair of what the AFR's are doing assuming the runners are the same length.
I think flow numbers for the AFR's vs the S3's with the LS6 intake and LSX intake in place would be far more enlighting. Normally, most LS1 heads loose flow. It should nice to know if the LSX's do with the LSX in place. The results for the AFR's will give a clear pictures of what they can/can't do with intake flow numbers thru an intake, likewise with the S3's in question.
On another note, the 1 7/8 pipe on exhaust gives some good info, but most of us have 1 3/4 headers. I would like to know what the AFR's flow on exhaust with the 1 3/4 pipe likewise the S3's in question.
Thanks
Could you please enlighten us on the following...
Is the length of the runner in the AFR head the exact same length of the runner in the LS1 head? If will you provide the exact length of each runner?
The reason I ask this is if the runner lengths are different a direct comparison for velocity isn't possible as I understand it. Please EDucate me if I am misunderstanding the concept.
Based on the data provided, I calcuate the velocity ratio (or whatever it's called) for the AFR's at 1.47 and the velocity ratio for the sorry S3's at 1.26, this indicates the AFR's have higher veloctiy provided the runner lengths are the same. Other my calulation is skewed.
FWIW - using the same criteria, I know of some quality LS1/LS6 heads (from several different quailty sponsors) that can pull velocity ratio of ~1.42 which is within a hair of what the AFR's are doing assuming the runners are the same length.
I think flow numbers for the AFR's vs the S3's with the LS6 intake and LSX intake in place would be far more enlighting. Normally, most LS1 heads loose flow. It should nice to know if the LSX's do with the LSX in place. The results for the AFR's will give a clear pictures of what they can/can't do with intake flow numbers thru an intake, likewise with the S3's in question.
On another note, the 1 7/8 pipe on exhaust gives some good info, but most of us have 1 3/4 headers. I would like to know what the AFR's flow on exhaust with the 1 3/4 pipe likewise the S3's in question.
Thanks
Last edited by 99 Black Bird T/A; Jan 22, 2004 at 08:05 AM.
6600 rpm clutch dump of death Administrator
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,983
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From: Texas
As always, hats off to Ed and Chris for posting factual information, not grabbing flying monkeys coming out their @.. and posting it as fact. I look forward to Ed's results as time goes on...
Ed,
Now you have me curious, I just cammed an engine builders car with a set of S3's on it and I took the shops number as real.. hmmm, I may have goofed. Thing is the shop is using my stick and 3 others to see which he likes best. Oh well.
Thanks for the compliment on the VC spacers. GM requested a set for evaluation so we hope to be shipping them some soon.
Valve locks are at the black oxide and will ship next week.
Chris
Now you have me curious, I just cammed an engine builders car with a set of S3's on it and I took the shops number as real.. hmmm, I may have goofed. Thing is the shop is using my stick and 3 others to see which he likes best. Oh well.
Thanks for the compliment on the VC spacers. GM requested a set for evaluation so we hope to be shipping them some soon.
Valve locks are at the black oxide and will ship next week.
Chris