most compression with 93 octane
04-08-2004, 01:19 PM
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i have stg 2 5.3l heads and was told that equaled out to about 11>1 11>2:1 CR and with 93 mine knocks like hell but i haven't had my car tuned either so... and also i am starting to wonder if me porting my maf ends would cause it to be worse too...
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04-09-2004, 08:15 AM
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I caculated my dads Heads and Cam 02 Z28 to be right around 11.5:1. The car just got tuned. So far there doesnt seem to be any detonation. Timing is @ 28 degrees. Its run on 93 octane.
04-09-2004, 10:41 AM
#14
CR is cam over-lap dependant....bigger the cam overlap= more CR
224/224 114 about 11:1
232/238 110 about 12.2
240/250 110 about 13:1
The intake valve closer later and later with overlap causing the dynamic compression to fall off due to lower cylinder volume AFTER the INTAKE VALVE closes; there is less air volume being compressed.
224/224 114 about 11:1
232/238 110 about 12.2
240/250 110 about 13:1
The intake valve closer later and later with overlap causing the dynamic compression to fall off due to lower cylinder volume AFTER the INTAKE VALVE closes; there is less air volume being compressed.
04-09-2004, 11:40 AM
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(quote)
224/224 114 about 11:1
232/238 110 about 12.2
240/250 110 about 13:1
Ok, I'm alittle confused here, not trying to jack the thread but I thought going down in LSA to a 110 would bleed off more pressure resulting in slightly lower compression, and giving it poor idle quality. I always thought this was why people wanted atleast a 114 LSA with a power added, was keep from bleeding off all the boost pressure. So from what spinmonster typed above, a 110 lsa will raise compression slightly? Maybe I'm not reading it right.
224/224 114 about 11:1
232/238 110 about 12.2
240/250 110 about 13:1
Ok, I'm alittle confused here, not trying to jack the thread but I thought going down in LSA to a 110 would bleed off more pressure resulting in slightly lower compression, and giving it poor idle quality. I always thought this was why people wanted atleast a 114 LSA with a power added, was keep from bleeding off all the boost pressure. So from what spinmonster typed above, a 110 lsa will raise compression slightly? Maybe I'm not reading it right.
04-09-2004, 12:49 PM
#19
Originally Posted by SnakeKiller
So from what spinmonster typed above, a 110 lsa will raise compression slightly? Maybe I'm not reading it right.
You have knock retard if you have too high a cr. In higher temps the car automatically runs richer to protect anyway. 1 point in cr is 4% power or 14-16 hp way more than the loss from the 2 or 3 degrees you would pull if you were knocking. So if you do a cam change and leave stock CR you are leaving 20-30 rwhp on the table by not upping the CR....in effect, the 232/238 110lsa cam would lower the dynamic CR to about 9:1 so an increase to about a static 12.2-12.4:1 would let the motor see10.8-11:1 dynamically.
The Trex cam does 451 on stock heads and CR but would easily run another 30 rwhp if the CR was increased to take up the dynamic loss from overlap.
Last edited by Spinmonster; 04-09-2004 at 01:01 PM.
04-09-2004, 01:37 PM
#20
6600 rpm clutch dump of death Administrator
The ability to run on pump gas will depend on DCR (dynamic compression ratio) not your static compression ratio.
http://www.empirenet.com/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html
Dynamic Compression Ratio (DCR) is an important concept in high performance engines. Determining what the compression ratio is after the intake valve closes provides valuable information about how the engine will perform with a particular cam and octane.
Definition: The Compression Ratio (CR) of an engine is the ratio of the cylinder volume compared to the combustion chamber volume. A cylinder with 10 units of volume (called the sweep volume) and a chamber with a volume of 1 has a 10:1 compression ratio. Static Compression Ratio (SCR) is the ratio most commonly referred to. It is derived from the sweep volume of the cylinder using the full crank stroke (BDC to TDC). Dynamic Compression Ratio, on the other hand, uses the position of the piston at intake valve closing rather than BDC of the crank stroke to determine the sweep volume of the cylinder.
The difference between the two can be substantial. For example, with a cam that closes the intake valve at 70º ABDC, the piston has risen 0.9053" from BDC in a stock rod 350 at the intake closing point. This decreases the sweep volume of the cylinder considerably, reducing the stroke length by almost an inch. Thereby reducing the compression ratio. This is the only difference between calculating the SCR and the DCR. All other values used in calculating the CR are the same. Note that the DCR is always lower than the SCR.
Dynamic compression ratio should not to be confused with cylinder pressure. Cylinder pressures change almost continuously due to many factors including RPM, intake manifold design, head port volume and efficiency, overlap, exhaust design, valve timing, throttle position, and a number of other factors. DCR is derived from measured or calculated values that are the actual dimensions of the engine. Therefore, unless variable cam timing is used, just like the static compression ratio, the Dynamic Compression Ratio, is fixed when the engine is built and never changes during the operation of the engine.
Two important points to remember:
The DCR is always lower than the SCR
The DCR does not change at any time during the operation of the engine
Determining seat timing: Since the early days of the internal combustion gasoline engine, engineers have known that the Otto four stroke engine is compression limited and that the quality of the fuel used determines the CR at which the engine could operate. However, it is not the Static CR but the actual running CR of the engine that is important. Compression of the air/fuel mixture cannot start while the intake valve is open. It may start slightly before the intake valve is fully seated. However, there is no easy way to determine this point so using the advertised duration number provided by the cam manufacture is the next best thing. Most cam grinders use .006" of tappet lift (hydraulic cam), although some use other values, with .004" being a common one. This duration is often referred to as the "seat timing". We will used advertised duration for calculating the DCR.
The special case of solid lifter cams. Solid cams are usually speced at an abitrary lift value (often .015" or .020") determined by the designer to be a good approximation of the cam's profile. This lift spec is not always correct for a particular cam. The correct lift point to determine the seat to seat timing of the cam is: Lash / rocker ratio + .004". This accounts for the lash. A cam with a .026" lash (given 1.5 rockers) should be measured at .02133" (.026/1.5+.004= .02133>"). This cam lash, with seat timing speced at .020", is actually a bit smaller than advertised since the valve has yet to actually lift off the seat. How much is the question (.024" lash is the only lash that is correct at .020" with 1.5 rockers). Without knowing the ramp rate, and doing some calculations, or measuring with a degree wheel, it is impossible to know. Again, we have to use the mfg's numbers. Here is some Chevy factory cam help.
Why it matters: A 355 engine with a 9:1 static CR using a 252 cam (110 LSA, 106 ICL) has an intake closing point of 52º ABDC and produces a running CR (DCR) of 7.93. The same 9:1 355 engine with a 292 cam (having an intake closing point of 72º ABDC) has a DCR of 6.87, over a full ratio lower. It appears that most gas engines make the best power with a DCR between 7.5 and 8.5 on 91 or better octane. The larger cam's DCR falls outside this range. It would have markedly less torque at lower RPM primarily due to low cylinder pressures, and a substantial amount of reversion back into the intake track. Higher RPM power would be down also since the engine would not be able to fully utilize the extra A/F mixture provided by the ramming effect of the late intake closing. To bring the 292 cam's DCR up to the 7.5 to 8.5:1 desirable for a street engine, the static CR needs to be raised to around 10:1 to 11.25:1. Race engines, using high octane race gas, can tolerate higher DCR's with 8.8:1 to 9:1 a good DCR to shoot for. The static CR needed to reach 9:1 DCR, for the 292 cam mentioned above, is around 12:1.
This lowering of the compression ratio, due to the late closing of the intake valve, is the primary reason cam manufactures specify a higher static compression ratio for their larger cams: to get the running or dynamic CR into the proper range.
Caveats: Running an engine at the upper limit of the DCR range requires that the engine be well built, with the correct quench distance, and kept cool (170º). Hot intake air and hot coolant are an inducement to detonation. If you anticipate hot conditions, pulling some timing out might be needed. A good cooling system is wise. Staying below 8.25 DCR is probably best for trouble free motoring.
>>Unless you have actually measured the engine (CCed the chambers and pistons in the bores), these calculations are estimations, at best. Treat them as such. The published volumes for heads and pistons can, and do, vary (crankshafts and rods, too). It is best to err on the low side. When contemplating an engine of around 8.4 DCR or higher, measurments are essential, or you could be building another motor.<<
Details: Long duration cams delay the closing of the intake valve and substantially reduce the running compression ratio of an engine compared to the SCR. The cam spec we are interested in to determine the DCR is the intake closing time (or angle) in degrees. This is determined by the duration of the intake lobe, and the installed Intake CenterLine (ICL) (and indirectly by the Lobe Separation Angle (LSA)). Of these, the builder has direct control of the ICL. The others are ground into the camshaft by the grinder (custom grinds are available so the builder could specify the duration and LSA). Changing the ICL changes the DCR. Retarding the cam delays intake closing and decreases the DCR. Advancing the cam causes the intake valve to close earlier (while the pistons is lower in the cylinder, increasing the sweep volume) which increases the DCR. This can be used to manipulate the DCR as well as moving the torque peak up or down the rpm range.
It is necessary to determine the position of the piston at intake valve closing to calculate the DCR. This can be calculated or measured (using a dial indicator and degree wheel). Since compression cannot start until the intake valve is closed, it is necessary to use seat times when calculating the DCR. Using .050" timing will give an incorrect answer since the cylinder is not sealed. At .050" tappet lift, using 1.5 rockers, the valve is still off the seat .075" and .085" with 1.7 rockers. While the flow is nearing zero at this point, compression cannot start until the cylinder is sealed.
Another factor that influences DCR is rod length. It's length determines the piston location at intake closing, different rod lengths change the DCR. Longer rods position the piston slightly higher in the cylinder at intake closing. This decreases the DCR, possibility necessitating a different cam profile than a shorter rod would require. However, the effect is slight and might only be a major factor if the rod is substantially different than stock. Still it needs to be taken into account when calculating the DCR.
http://www.empirenet.com/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html
Dynamic Compression Ratio (DCR) is an important concept in high performance engines. Determining what the compression ratio is after the intake valve closes provides valuable information about how the engine will perform with a particular cam and octane.
Definition: The Compression Ratio (CR) of an engine is the ratio of the cylinder volume compared to the combustion chamber volume. A cylinder with 10 units of volume (called the sweep volume) and a chamber with a volume of 1 has a 10:1 compression ratio. Static Compression Ratio (SCR) is the ratio most commonly referred to. It is derived from the sweep volume of the cylinder using the full crank stroke (BDC to TDC). Dynamic Compression Ratio, on the other hand, uses the position of the piston at intake valve closing rather than BDC of the crank stroke to determine the sweep volume of the cylinder.
The difference between the two can be substantial. For example, with a cam that closes the intake valve at 70º ABDC, the piston has risen 0.9053" from BDC in a stock rod 350 at the intake closing point. This decreases the sweep volume of the cylinder considerably, reducing the stroke length by almost an inch. Thereby reducing the compression ratio. This is the only difference between calculating the SCR and the DCR. All other values used in calculating the CR are the same. Note that the DCR is always lower than the SCR.
Dynamic compression ratio should not to be confused with cylinder pressure. Cylinder pressures change almost continuously due to many factors including RPM, intake manifold design, head port volume and efficiency, overlap, exhaust design, valve timing, throttle position, and a number of other factors. DCR is derived from measured or calculated values that are the actual dimensions of the engine. Therefore, unless variable cam timing is used, just like the static compression ratio, the Dynamic Compression Ratio, is fixed when the engine is built and never changes during the operation of the engine.
Two important points to remember:
The DCR is always lower than the SCR
The DCR does not change at any time during the operation of the engine
Determining seat timing: Since the early days of the internal combustion gasoline engine, engineers have known that the Otto four stroke engine is compression limited and that the quality of the fuel used determines the CR at which the engine could operate. However, it is not the Static CR but the actual running CR of the engine that is important. Compression of the air/fuel mixture cannot start while the intake valve is open. It may start slightly before the intake valve is fully seated. However, there is no easy way to determine this point so using the advertised duration number provided by the cam manufacture is the next best thing. Most cam grinders use .006" of tappet lift (hydraulic cam), although some use other values, with .004" being a common one. This duration is often referred to as the "seat timing". We will used advertised duration for calculating the DCR.
The special case of solid lifter cams. Solid cams are usually speced at an abitrary lift value (often .015" or .020") determined by the designer to be a good approximation of the cam's profile. This lift spec is not always correct for a particular cam. The correct lift point to determine the seat to seat timing of the cam is: Lash / rocker ratio + .004". This accounts for the lash. A cam with a .026" lash (given 1.5 rockers) should be measured at .02133" (.026/1.5+.004= .02133>"). This cam lash, with seat timing speced at .020", is actually a bit smaller than advertised since the valve has yet to actually lift off the seat. How much is the question (.024" lash is the only lash that is correct at .020" with 1.5 rockers). Without knowing the ramp rate, and doing some calculations, or measuring with a degree wheel, it is impossible to know. Again, we have to use the mfg's numbers. Here is some Chevy factory cam help.
Why it matters: A 355 engine with a 9:1 static CR using a 252 cam (110 LSA, 106 ICL) has an intake closing point of 52º ABDC and produces a running CR (DCR) of 7.93. The same 9:1 355 engine with a 292 cam (having an intake closing point of 72º ABDC) has a DCR of 6.87, over a full ratio lower. It appears that most gas engines make the best power with a DCR between 7.5 and 8.5 on 91 or better octane. The larger cam's DCR falls outside this range. It would have markedly less torque at lower RPM primarily due to low cylinder pressures, and a substantial amount of reversion back into the intake track. Higher RPM power would be down also since the engine would not be able to fully utilize the extra A/F mixture provided by the ramming effect of the late intake closing. To bring the 292 cam's DCR up to the 7.5 to 8.5:1 desirable for a street engine, the static CR needs to be raised to around 10:1 to 11.25:1. Race engines, using high octane race gas, can tolerate higher DCR's with 8.8:1 to 9:1 a good DCR to shoot for. The static CR needed to reach 9:1 DCR, for the 292 cam mentioned above, is around 12:1.
This lowering of the compression ratio, due to the late closing of the intake valve, is the primary reason cam manufactures specify a higher static compression ratio for their larger cams: to get the running or dynamic CR into the proper range.
Caveats: Running an engine at the upper limit of the DCR range requires that the engine be well built, with the correct quench distance, and kept cool (170º). Hot intake air and hot coolant are an inducement to detonation. If you anticipate hot conditions, pulling some timing out might be needed. A good cooling system is wise. Staying below 8.25 DCR is probably best for trouble free motoring.
>>Unless you have actually measured the engine (CCed the chambers and pistons in the bores), these calculations are estimations, at best. Treat them as such. The published volumes for heads and pistons can, and do, vary (crankshafts and rods, too). It is best to err on the low side. When contemplating an engine of around 8.4 DCR or higher, measurments are essential, or you could be building another motor.<<
Details: Long duration cams delay the closing of the intake valve and substantially reduce the running compression ratio of an engine compared to the SCR. The cam spec we are interested in to determine the DCR is the intake closing time (or angle) in degrees. This is determined by the duration of the intake lobe, and the installed Intake CenterLine (ICL) (and indirectly by the Lobe Separation Angle (LSA)). Of these, the builder has direct control of the ICL. The others are ground into the camshaft by the grinder (custom grinds are available so the builder could specify the duration and LSA). Changing the ICL changes the DCR. Retarding the cam delays intake closing and decreases the DCR. Advancing the cam causes the intake valve to close earlier (while the pistons is lower in the cylinder, increasing the sweep volume) which increases the DCR. This can be used to manipulate the DCR as well as moving the torque peak up or down the rpm range.
It is necessary to determine the position of the piston at intake valve closing to calculate the DCR. This can be calculated or measured (using a dial indicator and degree wheel). Since compression cannot start until the intake valve is closed, it is necessary to use seat times when calculating the DCR. Using .050" timing will give an incorrect answer since the cylinder is not sealed. At .050" tappet lift, using 1.5 rockers, the valve is still off the seat .075" and .085" with 1.7 rockers. While the flow is nearing zero at this point, compression cannot start until the cylinder is sealed.
Another factor that influences DCR is rod length. It's length determines the piston location at intake closing, different rod lengths change the DCR. Longer rods position the piston slightly higher in the cylinder at intake closing. This decreases the DCR, possibility necessitating a different cam profile than a shorter rod would require. However, the effect is slight and might only be a major factor if the rod is substantially different than stock. Still it needs to be taken into account when calculating the DCR.