Stock gaskets in a superstroker at SPEED INC. ?
05-04-2004, 11:22 PM
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Stock gaskets in a superstroker at SPEED INC. ? https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...erry+gabeletto
What will happen when stock head gaskets are used in a superstroker ?
I lived in Kansas City and had a motor swap (to an MTI 422, motor was bought used see above link) & tune done at SPEED INC. in chicago. This was supposed to be a simple swap...The first time I went back to pick up the car, I came back home empty handed. The car died at an intersection (Finley and Ogden in Downers Grove) and would not start back up. I push the car to a nearby gas station and headed back to the hotel. I came back 6-7 hrs later to try and restart it... It started on the first crank. I got the car to the hotel, parked it and proceed to turn off the motor. The motor kept on running, sputtering for a good 5-6sec or so before coming to a complete stop. 30 min or so later I tried to restart it, again without success.
The next morning it started. Not wanting to get stranded I dropped it back off at SPEED and told Larry the shop manager what happen.
On my second trip the same thing happen. I took the car back to SPEED, this time they diagnosed it as a bad 02 sensors. Sensors was replaced and I headed back to KC. We ran the car straight without turning it off for fear of getting stranded.
The motor hydrolocked 3-4 days later on the first startup after getting home. Motor was sent to MTI for the rebuilt after Jayson offer to help (free labor & discount on parts). After the teardown, I got words from MTI that there are stock sized gaskets in the 422.
This motor had a pin hole leak in the head while at SPEED. Heads were sent back to seller who got it fixed and sent them back w/ a new set of gaskets albeit the wrong size. The R&R of the heads was done at SPEED.
Is the above symptoms consistent w/ the wrong size gasket being used ?
I called SPEED and talked to Larry about the finding. Larry called back a few hrs latter insisting that I must have taken the car somewhere else to get it serviced and done improperly and thus SPEED is not responsible for the result.
I talked to Tom the owner of SPEED a few days later and told him about the offer of help extended by MTI. Tom still insisted that kind of mistake is not possible because they don't even have stock sized gasket on the premise. Tom did offer me $450 which I declined.
What will happen when stock head gaskets are used in a superstroker ?
I lived in Kansas City and had a motor swap (to an MTI 422, motor was bought used see above link) & tune done at SPEED INC. in chicago. This was supposed to be a simple swap...The first time I went back to pick up the car, I came back home empty handed. The car died at an intersection (Finley and Ogden in Downers Grove) and would not start back up. I push the car to a nearby gas station and headed back to the hotel. I came back 6-7 hrs later to try and restart it... It started on the first crank. I got the car to the hotel, parked it and proceed to turn off the motor. The motor kept on running, sputtering for a good 5-6sec or so before coming to a complete stop. 30 min or so later I tried to restart it, again without success.
The next morning it started. Not wanting to get stranded I dropped it back off at SPEED and told Larry the shop manager what happen.
On my second trip the same thing happen. I took the car back to SPEED, this time they diagnosed it as a bad 02 sensors. Sensors was replaced and I headed back to KC. We ran the car straight without turning it off for fear of getting stranded.
The motor hydrolocked 3-4 days later on the first startup after getting home. Motor was sent to MTI for the rebuilt after Jayson offer to help (free labor & discount on parts). After the teardown, I got words from MTI that there are stock sized gaskets in the 422.
This motor had a pin hole leak in the head while at SPEED. Heads were sent back to seller who got it fixed and sent them back w/ a new set of gaskets albeit the wrong size. The R&R of the heads was done at SPEED.
Is the above symptoms consistent w/ the wrong size gasket being used ?
I called SPEED and talked to Larry about the finding. Larry called back a few hrs latter insisting that I must have taken the car somewhere else to get it serviced and done improperly and thus SPEED is not responsible for the result.
I talked to Tom the owner of SPEED a few days later and told him about the offer of help extended by MTI. Tom still insisted that kind of mistake is not possible because they don't even have stock sized gasket on the premise. Tom did offer me $450 which I declined.
05-05-2004, 01:08 AM
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I don't know how you could mistake a stock 346ci gasket onto a 422ci. The bore is much larger than the gasket and it should be obvious from the gasket overlap on bores and chambers. The coolant passages on the gaskets should all match up correctly. Unless it was a gm gasket for the c5r block it would not work. It is impossible for anyone to diagonsis the problem specificly without seeing the tore down motor and gasket. Was the leak coming from the heads or the gasket?
05-05-2004, 01:31 AM
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I can't see anyone of their mechanics at the shop making a mistake like that, they have done TONS of motor work, I've never heard of anything like that before...
05-05-2004, 09:16 AM
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I have no idea who put the heads back on or supplied the head gaskets and am certainly not assigning any blame or pointing any fingers or anything at all like that as it's not my position or place, but .......
I saw the motor in question right after the heads came off and it had stock gaskets on there. No question about it.
I saw the motor in question right after the heads came off and it had stock gaskets on there. No question about it.
05-05-2004, 09:41 AM
#6
what you haven't mentioned is what i'm wondering here..if you bought that motor as a longblock and just had speed put it in then why would the heads have even been off while the car was at Speed? they wouldn't have taken them off for any reason just to swap the motor in.
Tom and Larry have IMO the best reputation in the business and that is for a good reason, I HIGHLY doubt something like that happened over there. And that is just like Tom to offer you money back even when he knows his shop is not at fault..that's why he is the man, bottom line, he does that kind of stuff all the time and has been for years..just to keep people happy.
i followed your problem with Terry back when you first posted it. It sounds to me like maybe he is the one to blame for the wrong gaskets being in there, i dunno.
Tom and Larry have IMO the best reputation in the business and that is for a good reason, I HIGHLY doubt something like that happened over there. And that is just like Tom to offer you money back even when he knows his shop is not at fault..that's why he is the man, bottom line, he does that kind of stuff all the time and has been for years..just to keep people happy.
i followed your problem with Terry back when you first posted it. It sounds to me like maybe he is the one to blame for the wrong gaskets being in there, i dunno.
05-05-2004, 10:28 AM
#7
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Lee, those guys are highly competent and measure everything.
Matter of fact, when I had them swap in a second set of heads onto my old 422ci, Tom called and told me that I had given them the wrong size head gaskets.
My only concern with this thread is that it's my understanding that you had the heads removed down by you and reinstalled, that's what I heard is that the case or not? I just want to make sure I understand the timeline:
-bought motor from Terry
-motor has leaky head; it's pulled and fixed
-motor is fixed, and you take the car back to MO.
-you pull the heads off in MO
-you send the motor to MTI
Matter of fact, when I had them swap in a second set of heads onto my old 422ci, Tom called and told me that I had given them the wrong size head gaskets.
My only concern with this thread is that it's my understanding that you had the heads removed down by you and reinstalled, that's what I heard is that the case or not? I just want to make sure I understand the timeline:
-bought motor from Terry
-motor has leaky head; it's pulled and fixed
-motor is fixed, and you take the car back to MO.
-you pull the heads off in MO
-you send the motor to MTI
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05-05-2004, 11:13 AM
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-Mr Ly Bought motor from Terry
-pinhole leak in cylinder head causing cylinder to fill up with coolant
-we pull heads and ship to MTI for repair/replacent
-heads return
-we use Felpro 1041 gaskets, which is what is on MR. LY's invoice. I have the invoice from my Felrpo supplier which the date corresponds with the time we re-installed the heads.
-Motor is removed by a shop in the same vicinity as MR LY. I was told it was shipped to MTI.
-MR LY calls me and tells me it had the wrong heads gaskets on it.
-I call MTI, speak with Jayson, as well as the tech who disassembled it. THey tell me it had stock GM gaskets on it, which we do not install or even sell. They also told me they no longer have the gaskets.
My stance is this......I have receipts from my supplier confirming that I received the proper gaskets, my tech insists that he installed the 1041's, and I believe that he wouldnt be that brain-dead (which is whay he would have to be to make the mistake). MTI 100% confirmed that they were GM gaskets, which I dont even stock or sell.
I see three possibilties here. One, the shop that removed your motor removed the heads for inspection (possibly another pinhole leak) with or without your knowledge. Two, MTI is mistaken and has your head gaskets confused with someone elses. Three, the other head started to seep coolant (like the the other side) into the intake port, causing it to hydrolock. MTI shifts the blame so they do not look bad again.
I think MTI is credible enough to throw out number three.
That being said, you want me to pay for a short block that I did not sell you, nor build. You brought it elsewhere to be worked on (because of location), not us. I dont know the extent of their work. Did they diagnose the problem? Or did they just remove the motor? I also dont know where the car has been, or what it has been through since it left my shop. Please understand my point of view.
I offered you $500 because i knew you were jerked around by Terry, and frankly, I felt bad for you.
Tom
-pinhole leak in cylinder head causing cylinder to fill up with coolant
-we pull heads and ship to MTI for repair/replacent
-heads return
-we use Felpro 1041 gaskets, which is what is on MR. LY's invoice. I have the invoice from my Felrpo supplier which the date corresponds with the time we re-installed the heads.
-Motor is removed by a shop in the same vicinity as MR LY. I was told it was shipped to MTI.
-MR LY calls me and tells me it had the wrong heads gaskets on it.
-I call MTI, speak with Jayson, as well as the tech who disassembled it. THey tell me it had stock GM gaskets on it, which we do not install or even sell. They also told me they no longer have the gaskets.
My stance is this......I have receipts from my supplier confirming that I received the proper gaskets, my tech insists that he installed the 1041's, and I believe that he wouldnt be that brain-dead (which is whay he would have to be to make the mistake). MTI 100% confirmed that they were GM gaskets, which I dont even stock or sell.
I see three possibilties here. One, the shop that removed your motor removed the heads for inspection (possibly another pinhole leak) with or without your knowledge. Two, MTI is mistaken and has your head gaskets confused with someone elses. Three, the other head started to seep coolant (like the the other side) into the intake port, causing it to hydrolock. MTI shifts the blame so they do not look bad again.
I think MTI is credible enough to throw out number three.
That being said, you want me to pay for a short block that I did not sell you, nor build. You brought it elsewhere to be worked on (because of location), not us. I dont know the extent of their work. Did they diagnose the problem? Or did they just remove the motor? I also dont know where the car has been, or what it has been through since it left my shop. Please understand my point of view.
I offered you $500 because i knew you were jerked around by Terry, and frankly, I felt bad for you.
Tom
05-05-2004, 11:35 AM
#10
damn now THAT sounds like a profesional organization. in this day and age where customer service has been pushed back for the "bang for the buck" sale, it is nice to see something like this. speedinc, i have never delt with you, but the mannor described sounds top notch. 
05-05-2004, 11:37 AM
#11
Seems fair to me.
he wanted you to cover that shortblock? that would be like buying a Big Mac at mcdonalds and then going to Burger King and saying it made you sick and you want your money back.
That 500 shouldn't even HAVE to be offered, like I said this is why Tom is the best.
he wanted you to cover that shortblock? that would be like buying a Big Mac at mcdonalds and then going to Burger King and saying it made you sick and you want your money back.
That 500 shouldn't even HAVE to be offered, like I said this is why Tom is the best.
05-05-2004, 12:06 PM
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Well, I tend to hear about problem motors from shops and I know that Lee's used motor was getting a lot of special attention from the moment it started having problems. So I think it's extremely unlikely that a motor like that, which at time probably had 3 or 4 Speed guys looking at it, would have gotten gaskets that were visibly the wrong size. And Speed has indicated that they do not carry the stock gaskets.
Lee, I talked to you when you were picking up the car and packing the U-Haul trailer. I think you recall me backing my car off the trailer, the red Formula. In all my years of dealing with Speed they have never messed something up, they have occasionally forgotten to do something like if we had a list of 5-6 tasks.
For all the people who have been in that motor, I think that you are hardly in a place to point blame specifically at anybody. And personally I think that the odds are more likely that dissasembler is mixing up engines. Remember on the Speed end of things, this motor was becoming special, especially after having a head with a leak.
Lee, I talked to you when you were picking up the car and packing the U-Haul trailer. I think you recall me backing my car off the trailer, the red Formula. In all my years of dealing with Speed they have never messed something up, they have occasionally forgotten to do something like if we had a list of 5-6 tasks.
For all the people who have been in that motor, I think that you are hardly in a place to point blame specifically at anybody. And personally I think that the odds are more likely that dissasembler is mixing up engines. Remember on the Speed end of things, this motor was becoming special, especially after having a head with a leak.
05-05-2004, 01:18 PM
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I guess to answer the first question, would the wrong gaskets cause the problems you had, the answer is no. Your problems are more typical of what happens when the heads have pinhole leaks and fill up a cylinder with coolant.
05-05-2004, 04:12 PM
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Nobody else removed the heads but MTI & SPEED during the R&R when it first developed the pinhole leak. First, why would I take the motor and have it done somewhere else when MTI is offering to help fix it for free (labor). Second, the shop that remove the 422 here in KC will not do anything to my car without my permission. I know them guys long enough & feel confident enough to bet my life on it !!!
I don't doubt you guys about your positive experiences w/ SPEED. It's just that mine has been less than stellar. If you read my initial post above...Even on my 2nd trip to pick up the car things weren't ready. Sratches on the car which Larry said will buff out but was not done because Larry said I did not give them enough time eventhough SPEED know full well a week in advance I was picking up my car that weekend. Motor & parts that were supposed to be ready for me to haul back home were nowhere in sight. We end up spending a good part of the AM looking for my things.
As far as SPEED not selling or using stock head gaskets, well that may be true but there's that set of stock gaskets Terry sent back w/ the heads.
Tom as far as the $500 you offered... Well you guys charged me the R&R of the heads fee of $450 which should have been put on Terrys' credit card along w/ the shipping fee since he said he'll pay for it. But you guys didn't do that, so I'm out $450.
Also I never asked you to pay for the whole repair. My exact words were " can you help ?".
For ya'll that take the time to read this thread, I thank you. I do ask that you consider this case not on your past experience w/ SPEED nor SPEED reputation but on its own merit.
This is a mistake and as such can be made regadless of competency. We all heard about reputable surgeons forgetting/leaving instruments in their patients or how about the surgeon that cut off the wrong limb...
All I know is there's a stock gasket in the 422 as per MTI.
SPEED is the only shop that R&R the heads prior to me sending the whole motor back to MTI for the rebuilt.
I know the guys at MC racing (they remove the 422) will be more than happy to talk to anyone w/ questions concerning their role in this case.
I don't doubt you guys about your positive experiences w/ SPEED. It's just that mine has been less than stellar. If you read my initial post above...Even on my 2nd trip to pick up the car things weren't ready. Sratches on the car which Larry said will buff out but was not done because Larry said I did not give them enough time eventhough SPEED know full well a week in advance I was picking up my car that weekend. Motor & parts that were supposed to be ready for me to haul back home were nowhere in sight. We end up spending a good part of the AM looking for my things.
As far as SPEED not selling or using stock head gaskets, well that may be true but there's that set of stock gaskets Terry sent back w/ the heads.
Tom as far as the $500 you offered... Well you guys charged me the R&R of the heads fee of $450 which should have been put on Terrys' credit card along w/ the shipping fee since he said he'll pay for it. But you guys didn't do that, so I'm out $450.
Also I never asked you to pay for the whole repair. My exact words were " can you help ?".
For ya'll that take the time to read this thread, I thank you. I do ask that you consider this case not on your past experience w/ SPEED nor SPEED reputation but on its own merit.
This is a mistake and as such can be made regadless of competency. We all heard about reputable surgeons forgetting/leaving instruments in their patients or how about the surgeon that cut off the wrong limb...
All I know is there's a stock gasket in the 422 as per MTI.
SPEED is the only shop that R&R the heads prior to me sending the whole motor back to MTI for the rebuilt.
I know the guys at MC racing (they remove the 422) will be more than happy to talk to anyone w/ questions concerning their role in this case.
05-05-2004, 04:23 PM
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Ly, I am not at liberty to charge someone elses credit card without their approval. It pretty much comes down to your and MTI's word against my tech's competence and my supplier/inventory records.
I am not arrogant enough to say it is impossible, but I will say it is unlikely. I do find it funny that you will 100% believe the shop that removed the motor, as well as MTI, but you nail us to the wall. You dont discount the fact that the head could have seeped, or that a sleeve dropped filling your cylinder(s) up with coolant.
We did alot for you without charging you a penny for it. Bottom line, if we took it apart, saw the error, then I would be covering this for you.
Good luck to you.
Tom
I am not arrogant enough to say it is impossible, but I will say it is unlikely. I do find it funny that you will 100% believe the shop that removed the motor, as well as MTI, but you nail us to the wall. You dont discount the fact that the head could have seeped, or that a sleeve dropped filling your cylinder(s) up with coolant.
We did alot for you without charging you a penny for it. Bottom line, if we took it apart, saw the error, then I would be covering this for you.
Good luck to you.
Tom
Last edited by LS1 SPEED INC.; 05-05-2004 at 04:36 PM.
05-05-2004, 04:51 PM
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I just spoke with Jayson at MTI and here's a direct commentary from him on this situation:
MTI elected to assist with this unfortunate situation in order to help out Dr. Lee. We offered to rebuild the damaged motor he purchased from Mr. Gabaletto with no charge for labor and parts at cost in order to help out a fellow LS1 enthusiast.
When the motor arrived at MTI, the machinist dissasembled the engine, removed the heads from the block and immediately brought to the attention of myself, our shop manager and our lead technician that stock head gaskets had been utilized. This resulted in the compression ring hanging over the cylinder and the head not sealing properly against the block.
MTI has no knowledge or opinion on how/why this occurred. We have done business on numerous occasions with Speed Inc. and have found them to be an excellent business partner and an extremely reputable shop.
Mr. Lee's motor has been completed and returned to him and we sincerely hope that this topic can be put to rest and everyone can go back to enjoying their vehicles.
Sincerely,
Jayson Cohen
President, Motorsport Technologies
MTI elected to assist with this unfortunate situation in order to help out Dr. Lee. We offered to rebuild the damaged motor he purchased from Mr. Gabaletto with no charge for labor and parts at cost in order to help out a fellow LS1 enthusiast.
When the motor arrived at MTI, the machinist dissasembled the engine, removed the heads from the block and immediately brought to the attention of myself, our shop manager and our lead technician that stock head gaskets had been utilized. This resulted in the compression ring hanging over the cylinder and the head not sealing properly against the block.
MTI has no knowledge or opinion on how/why this occurred. We have done business on numerous occasions with Speed Inc. and have found them to be an excellent business partner and an extremely reputable shop.
Mr. Lee's motor has been completed and returned to him and we sincerely hope that this topic can be put to rest and everyone can go back to enjoying their vehicles.
Sincerely,
Jayson Cohen
President, Motorsport Technologies
05-05-2004, 04:55 PM
#18
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Well, as much as I like MTI and Speed, and I know they both have an ongoing relationship that is amicable and professional, it's my opinion the engine left with the appropriate bore head gaskets. At the moment of having to remove the heads since one of them was leaking, the engine was flagged as special and everything was triple checked since there a was a problem. Good luck with it all, I hope you took Terry G to small claims court.
05-06-2004, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by LS1 SPEED INC.
Ly, I am not at liberty to charge someone elses credit card without their approval.
Seeing that the message does not always flow through the chain of command I ask Larry to please call Terry's wife to confirm that you can charge his credit card for the heads R&R. One phone call is all SPEED had to do and I've ask this on more than one occasion.
It pretty much comes down to your and MTI's word against my tech's competence and my supplier/inventory records.
I am not arrogant enough to say it is impossible, but I will say it is unlikely.
OK, it's possible but unlikely so SPEED bear NO responsility ???
I do find it funny that you will 100% believe the shop that removed the motor, as well as MTI, but you nail us to the wall. You dont discount the fact that the head could have seeped, or that a sleeve dropped filling your cylinder(s) up with coolant.
It's no different than the way SPEED treated me when I first reported that there's stock gasket in the 422. Right off the bat SPEED denies responsibility and accused me of taking the car somewhere else to get it worked on and thus ending up w/ this stock gasket and then coming back to you. Might as well call me a liar and a cheat !!!
We did alot for you without charging you a penny for it.
Wow, I'm not aware what all was done but I thought I got charged for everything...$1500 for motor swap and tune, $450 for R&R of heads which should have been charged to TERRY, $126 leak down test, $480 for coating of headers, $250 for 02sensors installed. Also spent another $2500+ in parts...What else was done ?
Bottom line, if we took it apart, saw the error, then I would be covering this for you.
Good luck to you.
Tom
Seeing that the message does not always flow through the chain of command I ask Larry to please call Terry's wife to confirm that you can charge his credit card for the heads R&R. One phone call is all SPEED had to do and I've ask this on more than one occasion.
It pretty much comes down to your and MTI's word against my tech's competence and my supplier/inventory records.
I am not arrogant enough to say it is impossible, but I will say it is unlikely.
OK, it's possible but unlikely so SPEED bear NO responsility ???
I do find it funny that you will 100% believe the shop that removed the motor, as well as MTI, but you nail us to the wall. You dont discount the fact that the head could have seeped, or that a sleeve dropped filling your cylinder(s) up with coolant.
It's no different than the way SPEED treated me when I first reported that there's stock gasket in the 422. Right off the bat SPEED denies responsibility and accused me of taking the car somewhere else to get it worked on and thus ending up w/ this stock gasket and then coming back to you. Might as well call me a liar and a cheat !!!
We did alot for you without charging you a penny for it.
Wow, I'm not aware what all was done but I thought I got charged for everything...$1500 for motor swap and tune, $450 for R&R of heads which should have been charged to TERRY, $126 leak down test, $480 for coating of headers, $250 for 02sensors installed. Also spent another $2500+ in parts...What else was done ?
Bottom line, if we took it apart, saw the error, then I would be covering this for you.
Good luck to you.
Tom
05-06-2004, 06:34 PM
#20
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It was unfortunate that Terry went sideways and became hard to deal with. I had two local friends who in fact were trying hard to also buy that engine when you got it. I think in the end both shops and the new owner all lost money on this one. I think this one is played out, please take it private at this point.
