newbie with LS and looking for some suggestions
08-29-2017, 10:39 AM
#1
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newbie with LS and looking for some suggestions my car is a 02 and its in good shape. I was in a toss up to try and get a completely other car to build and race but im at the point now where im planning on just building mine for that and have a good solid street car also.
my questions is this. I have been doing quite a bit of reading here and seeing a lot going to LQ4 or LQ9 in some way shape or form
I have seen around where I can buy most of the LQ4 motors complete for a tad over $1000.
my question is this. which is the better way to go stay with the LS1 that I have in the car now and build it with H/C/I and so on. and possibly bore it to get more cubes.
or buy a LQ4 and build off of that? is there more to gain HP wise out of the LQ4 vs the LS1. I know they are different cubes but just in looking at stock to stock are they not close to the same HP wise?
just looking for some ideas and input from the masses here that have more LS experience than I do what would be my best way to go.
would really like to get my car down in the low 11s if possible with out power adders like Turbo or Nitrous
my questions is this. I have been doing quite a bit of reading here and seeing a lot going to LQ4 or LQ9 in some way shape or form
I have seen around where I can buy most of the LQ4 motors complete for a tad over $1000.
my question is this. which is the better way to go stay with the LS1 that I have in the car now and build it with H/C/I and so on. and possibly bore it to get more cubes.
or buy a LQ4 and build off of that? is there more to gain HP wise out of the LQ4 vs the LS1. I know they are different cubes but just in looking at stock to stock are they not close to the same HP wise?
just looking for some ideas and input from the masses here that have more LS experience than I do what would be my best way to go.
would really like to get my car down in the low 11s if possible with out power adders like Turbo or Nitrous
08-29-2017, 10:44 AM
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This is likely a minority opinion, but for a LQ4, if it's going to stay stock bottom end, is HCI the 5.7 instead. Aluminum vs iron and the compression will be better.
Unless you're going to take that lq4 and build for 400+ cubes. If you're doing that, then go ahead and do the lq4
Unless you're going to take that lq4 and build for 400+ cubes. If you're doing that, then go ahead and do the lq4
08-29-2017, 10:52 AM
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If your current motor is in good shape without tons of miles I say keep your setup and build it. Otherwise you may be better off with the 6.0. Low 11's is very doable from a built LS1
08-29-2017, 11:02 AM
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Car has 130k on it. I assume it is all stock. did notice it still has 241 heads on it but as far as I know there has never been anything done with the motor at all
the car runs good but still doesn't run like some say it should at the track but its pretty consistent.
I was just thinking stock to stock the HP numbers are about the same so wasn't sure if putting in an LQ4 with H/C/I would gain me so much more than just doing the same H/C/I to the LS1 that I already have.
I can see if taking a LQ4 and doing some machining and building a 400+ cube motor where it would be more of a gain there I can get that but not sure yet how far I want to go just yet.
for me now a car in the low 11s would be fantastic but I know ill need H/C/I to get it there. planning on 243 heads fast 102 intake and TB and not sure on cam yet.
I have some time to wait since I have a wedding and honeymoon coming up next year I have to do first
but would like to get a solid plan together before trying to get parts together and I just don't know the LS platform that well yet. im still learning by reading here but not a lot of LS guys in the area that know much other than a drop in and swap type deal
the car runs good but still doesn't run like some say it should at the track but its pretty consistent.
I was just thinking stock to stock the HP numbers are about the same so wasn't sure if putting in an LQ4 with H/C/I would gain me so much more than just doing the same H/C/I to the LS1 that I already have.
I can see if taking a LQ4 and doing some machining and building a 400+ cube motor where it would be more of a gain there I can get that but not sure yet how far I want to go just yet.
for me now a car in the low 11s would be fantastic but I know ill need H/C/I to get it there. planning on 243 heads fast 102 intake and TB and not sure on cam yet.
I have some time to wait since I have a wedding and honeymoon coming up next year I have to do first
but would like to get a solid plan together before trying to get parts together and I just don't know the LS platform that well yet. im still learning by reading here but not a lot of LS guys in the area that know much other than a drop in and swap type deal
08-29-2017, 01:21 PM
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You can typically find a already done 408 short block between 3k and 2k. By the time you do the stuff to a lq4 to bring it up to snuff like flat top Pistons, etc.
The lq4 won't make much more power than the 5.7 unless you dump the money into it.
I'd say get a 408 short block, 243 heads, 230/238 cam and have fun. If the short block is out of your price range, then a set of tfs 220 as cast heads and a similar cam in your 5.7 with no mods. You'll be in good shape eithe way
The lq4 won't make much more power than the 5.7 unless you dump the money into it.
I'd say get a 408 short block, 243 heads, 230/238 cam and have fun. If the short block is out of your price range, then a set of tfs 220 as cast heads and a similar cam in your 5.7 with no mods. You'll be in good shape eithe way
08-29-2017, 02:23 PM
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OK some good info
so I like the idea of going with a 383 stroker kit.
so with a 383 stroker rotating assy, 243 ported heads through TSP. fast 102 intake and TB, 3500 stall what cam would you all go with?
with the amount of miles the car has on I wouldn't mind putting a new rotating assy in to replace the rod and main bearings anyway.
so I like the idea of going with a 383 stroker kit.
so with a 383 stroker rotating assy, 243 ported heads through TSP. fast 102 intake and TB, 3500 stall what cam would you all go with?
with the amount of miles the car has on I wouldn't mind putting a new rotating assy in to replace the rod and main bearings anyway.
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08-29-2017, 02:39 PM
#8
If new to engines, builds, rotating parts, hard parts, transmissions, fast cars,
Then I would avoid opening an engine. I would also avoid "stroker" engines.
The less you do in general, the less you let other people do, the better off you will be.
If you are new to torque wrenches, gaskets, gasket sealer, this all counts double.
if you've never held a clutch or torque converter in your hands, or you have never had gear oil in your hair, it counts triple.
Then I would avoid opening an engine. I would also avoid "stroker" engines.
The less you do in general, the less you let other people do, the better off you will be.
If you are new to torque wrenches, gaskets, gasket sealer, this all counts double.
if you've never held a clutch or torque converter in your hands, or you have never had gear oil in your hair, it counts triple.
08-29-2017, 03:02 PM
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If new to engines, builds, rotating parts, hard parts, transmissions, fast cars,
Then I would avoid opening an engine. I would also avoid "stroker" engines.
The less you do in general, the less you let other people do, the better off you will be.
If you are new to torque wrenches, gaskets, gasket sealer, this all counts double.
if you've never held a clutch or torque converter in your hands, or you have never had gear oil in your hair, it counts triple.
Then I would avoid opening an engine. I would also avoid "stroker" engines.
The less you do in general, the less you let other people do, the better off you will be.
If you are new to torque wrenches, gaskets, gasket sealer, this all counts double.
if you've never held a clutch or torque converter in your hands, or you have never had gear oil in your hair, it counts triple.
Said new to the LS platform not new to builds and so on. just the LS platform. all of my experience comes from old carb motors
08-29-2017, 03:06 PM
#10
Ah, very good. So the same with me as well.
The newer LS engines are much more reliable than the old 2-piece SBC we used in the past. A typical 5.3L iron truck motor does not need to be 'rebuilt' for use in the 400-600 horsepower range. So this is the recommended path, use an L33 if weight is the concern. Up to 600~ horsepower or so (mileage and results vary)
No reason to jump into internals unless I was planning over 600 horsepower, is kinda where I am going with this. It helps because not having to worry about machine work down time and mistakes is a major help.
Its a different path without FI though. choose the largest engine you can get- heads cam intake exhaust obviously to top it off. However, I still wouldn't worry about internals unless you have serious funds leftover and nothing else to buy. Instead, I would put the $$ into the transmission / diff
The newer LS engines are much more reliable than the old 2-piece SBC we used in the past. A typical 5.3L iron truck motor does not need to be 'rebuilt' for use in the 400-600 horsepower range. So this is the recommended path, use an L33 if weight is the concern. Up to 600~ horsepower or so (mileage and results vary)
No reason to jump into internals unless I was planning over 600 horsepower, is kinda where I am going with this. It helps because not having to worry about machine work down time and mistakes is a major help.
Its a different path without FI though. choose the largest engine you can get- heads cam intake exhaust obviously to top it off. However, I still wouldn't worry about internals unless you have serious funds leftover and nothing else to buy. Instead, I would put the $$ into the transmission / diff
08-30-2017, 02:51 AM
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OK some good info
so I like the idea of going with a 383 stroker kit.
so with a 383 stroker rotating assy, 243 ported heads through TSP. fast 102 intake and TB, 3500 stall what cam would you all go with?
with the amount of miles the car has on I wouldn't mind putting a new rotating assy in to replace the rod and main bearings anyway.
so I like the idea of going with a 383 stroker kit.
so with a 383 stroker rotating assy, 243 ported heads through TSP. fast 102 intake and TB, 3500 stall what cam would you all go with?
with the amount of miles the car has on I wouldn't mind putting a new rotating assy in to replace the rod and main bearings anyway.
if you go with ported 243, you're going to need a fair amount of cam to really help it make any power. Also, ported 243 tent o be very intake biased, so you'll want alot of exhaust duration (split) vs the intake. I would do 232/244-114+4
08-31-2017, 01:39 PM
#12
IMO to put this another way: Its a whole heck of a lot of work to get something custom like that setup (like a "stroker motor"), compared to just cookie cutting an OEM bottom end and driving the car quickly. You don't get power from the physically chosen pistons/rods/crankshaft, and some .5L difference isn't worth all the additional work it requires, and the potential for problems.
Joe and Bob decide to build cars. Joe takes apart a 5.XL engine, sends it to the machine shop and waits a couple weeks. Gets it back and using the proper tools ($$$) finds all kinds of problems. Gets a new block, sends it to a different machine shop (after losing all the $$ from the previous engine), and they tell him its bad block. Gets another block, sends to the same place, takes them months. Finally he gets it back and its good to go, starts putting his parts into it. And then pick one of the following to go wrong:
-the cylinder wall was honed wrong for the rings he is using, the rings don't seat proper, the engine has blow-by, Joe complains on the forum and nothing he does fixes it. Winds up with a catch can.
-Some of the pushrods were the wrong length and several valves don't fully close at high RPM causing an inconclusive misfire condition
-Joe forgot to check the cam timing (or neglected it) and the cam is advanced so the engine makes 90 less horsepower than it should. It isn't obvious so Joe spends hundreds of hours changing other parts before finding it.
-machine shop set the main clearance to 0.0027" even though Joe desired a closer to factory 0.0018", so now he has to use thicker oil, oil pressure takes longer to build on cold start, and the engine incurs additional cold-start wear and tear which reduces its lifespan several tends of thousands miles.
-the list goes on forever
lets see what Bob does:
Bob buys a 5.XL engine from a junkyard after hearing it run in the junkyard car. He inspects the engine closely for maintenance (clean under the valve covers, good compression, oil smells good) and checks the mileage, vin#s, etc...
takes it home, refreshes the heads/oilpump/gaskets the next day and puts it into the car by the end of the week, driving.
Joe and Bob decide to build cars. Joe takes apart a 5.XL engine, sends it to the machine shop and waits a couple weeks. Gets it back and using the proper tools ($$$) finds all kinds of problems. Gets a new block, sends it to a different machine shop (after losing all the $$ from the previous engine), and they tell him its bad block. Gets another block, sends to the same place, takes them months. Finally he gets it back and its good to go, starts putting his parts into it. And then pick one of the following to go wrong:
-the cylinder wall was honed wrong for the rings he is using, the rings don't seat proper, the engine has blow-by, Joe complains on the forum and nothing he does fixes it. Winds up with a catch can.
-Some of the pushrods were the wrong length and several valves don't fully close at high RPM causing an inconclusive misfire condition
-Joe forgot to check the cam timing (or neglected it) and the cam is advanced so the engine makes 90 less horsepower than it should. It isn't obvious so Joe spends hundreds of hours changing other parts before finding it.
-machine shop set the main clearance to 0.0027" even though Joe desired a closer to factory 0.0018", so now he has to use thicker oil, oil pressure takes longer to build on cold start, and the engine incurs additional cold-start wear and tear which reduces its lifespan several tends of thousands miles.
-the list goes on forever
lets see what Bob does:
Bob buys a 5.XL engine from a junkyard after hearing it run in the junkyard car. He inspects the engine closely for maintenance (clean under the valve covers, good compression, oil smells good) and checks the mileage, vin#s, etc...
takes it home, refreshes the heads/oilpump/gaskets the next day and puts it into the car by the end of the week, driving.
Last edited by kingtal0n; 08-31-2017 at 01:48 PM.
08-31-2017, 02:11 PM
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IMO to put this another way: Its a whole heck of a lot of work to get something custom like that setup (like a "stroker motor"), compared to just cookie cutting an OEM bottom end and driving the car quickly. You don't get power from the physically chosen pistons/rods/crankshaft, and some .5L difference isn't worth all the additional work it requires, and the potential for problems.
Joe and Bob decide to build cars. Joe takes apart a 5.XL engine, sends it to the machine shop and waits a couple weeks. Gets it back and using the proper tools ($$$) finds all kinds of problems. Gets a new block, sends it to a different machine shop (after losing all the $$ from the previous engine), and they tell him its bad block. Gets another block, sends to the same place, takes them months. Finally he gets it back and its good to go, starts putting his parts into it. And then pick one of the following to go wrong:
-the cylinder wall was honed wrong for the rings he is using, the rings don't seat proper, the engine has blow-by, Joe complains on the forum and nothing he does fixes it. Winds up with a catch can.
-Some of the pushrods were the wrong length and several valves don't fully close at high RPM causing an inconclusive misfire condition
-Joe forgot to check the cam timing (or neglected it) and the cam is advanced so the engine makes 90 less horsepower than it should. It isn't obvious so Joe spends hundreds of hours changing other parts before finding it.
-machine shop set the main clearance to 0.0027" even though Joe desired a closer to factory 0.0018", so now he has to use thicker oil, oil pressure takes longer to build on cold start, and the engine incurs additional cold-start wear and tear which reduces its lifespan several tends of thousands miles.
-the list goes on forever
lets see what Bob does:
Bob buys a 5.XL engine from a junkyard after hearing it run in the junkyard car. He inspects the engine closely for maintenance (clean under the valve covers, good compression, oil smells good) and checks the mileage, vin#s, etc...
takes it home, refreshes the heads/oilpump/gaskets the next day and puts it into the car by the end of the week, driving.
Joe and Bob decide to build cars. Joe takes apart a 5.XL engine, sends it to the machine shop and waits a couple weeks. Gets it back and using the proper tools ($$$) finds all kinds of problems. Gets a new block, sends it to a different machine shop (after losing all the $$ from the previous engine), and they tell him its bad block. Gets another block, sends to the same place, takes them months. Finally he gets it back and its good to go, starts putting his parts into it. And then pick one of the following to go wrong:
-the cylinder wall was honed wrong for the rings he is using, the rings don't seat proper, the engine has blow-by, Joe complains on the forum and nothing he does fixes it. Winds up with a catch can.
-Some of the pushrods were the wrong length and several valves don't fully close at high RPM causing an inconclusive misfire condition
-Joe forgot to check the cam timing (or neglected it) and the cam is advanced so the engine makes 90 less horsepower than it should. It isn't obvious so Joe spends hundreds of hours changing other parts before finding it.
-machine shop set the main clearance to 0.0027" even though Joe desired a closer to factory 0.0018", so now he has to use thicker oil, oil pressure takes longer to build on cold start, and the engine incurs additional cold-start wear and tear which reduces its lifespan several tends of thousands miles.
-the list goes on forever
lets see what Bob does:
Bob buys a 5.XL engine from a junkyard after hearing it run in the junkyard car. He inspects the engine closely for maintenance (clean under the valve covers, good compression, oil smells good) and checks the mileage, vin#s, etc...
takes it home, refreshes the heads/oilpump/gaskets the next day and puts it into the car by the end of the week, driving.
OK so let me get this correct?
your saying that bob who throws a set of heads and some gaskets on a junkyard motor is better off than joe who apparently is wanting to make his car faster? so which one in the end is faster? the heads on the junkyard motor or the stroker 408?
don't get me wrong but if I was asking which is cheaper because my stuff is blown yea I would just buy whatever motor and dump it in. but that is not the question that I had asked.
its kind of funny that you did this pretty much exact type of derail on another thread of mine a while back.
08-31-2017, 03:09 PM
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How to compress a 5-sentence story into a novel....
08-31-2017, 04:24 PM
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OK so let me get this correct?
your saying that bob who throws a set of heads and some gaskets on a junkyard motor is better off than joe who apparently is wanting to make his car faster? so which one in the end is faster? the heads on the junkyard motor or the stroker 408?
don't get me wrong but if I was asking which is cheaper because my stuff is blown yea I would just buy whatever motor and dump it in. but that is not the question that I had asked.
its kind of funny that you did this pretty much exact type of derail on another thread of mine a while back.
your saying that bob who throws a set of heads and some gaskets on a junkyard motor is better off than joe who apparently is wanting to make his car faster? so which one in the end is faster? the heads on the junkyard motor or the stroker 408?
don't get me wrong but if I was asking which is cheaper because my stuff is blown yea I would just buy whatever motor and dump it in. but that is not the question that I had asked.
its kind of funny that you did this pretty much exact type of derail on another thread of mine a while back.
Where I disagree with Talon is he will recommend boost almost always. I prefer NA. But it's your motor. You want boost, I'll help you spec out a boosted engine. You want NA, I'll help you do that. No reason for me to talk you into or out of anything. you have your reasons, and that's fine with me.
Price out doing a full turbo kit (I couldn't begin to guess). Price out rigging up a LSA blower to work on a 5.3 truck engine or a 5.7 LS1 at around $3500. Then google around and you can find 427 LS short blocks in $5K territory. Instead of a junkyard motor, you've got something that can make 650 HP and go 300K miles. Or for around $3K, you can do a new 408 or a 383 short block (same price in most places) and do much better with the 408 vs the 383 with some used ls3 heads, etc. Stroke absorbs cam, so if you do decide to do a 383, you'll need a bigger cam than you think so it can breathe.
In general, The LS platform does really well when bore > stroke. If you do a 383, stroke > bore. A 408, bore is very slightly bigger than stroke.
Anyway, hope all that helps...
08-31-2017, 04:28 PM
#16
The answer is, yes: if you take something apart and get it machined correctly, put together correctly, broken in and running right, it would be better than any used-parts. Of course new can be better. If and only if you could get the engine put together right. Keep in mind, a large clearance engine designed for higher RPM (not necessarily more power) may not last long. Sometimes, an engine builder uses clearances and materials which are not useful or desirable for our application. There is a fairly high chance that when sending something to a machine shop for the first time, that what you get back is not going to be the right thing for your application, even if they did everything properly.
For us this means we look at an assembled shortblock and ask a simple question: Will it support the application the way it is. Forget about mileage; we assume an infinite number of cheap replacement longblocks is available. If one of the goals is to use budget options. Sometimes brand new engines come with all kinds of problems so don't just assume that if you buy an expensive 5k engine it will last either. I feel far more comfortable grabbing something with 80k or 120k and riding it to 200k or 220k, that is 10 years of driving around 10k/year, when budget is a concern. if we throw budget out the window then obviously everything needs to be brand new and we should have several dyno-tested broken in engines sitting on the side waiting to go in also. The same for trans and diff. And I would also want additional chassis preparred and setup for whatever racing I am doing. That is with no budget.
Just trying to save us some money. If I had a brand new car and took out a perfectly good engine because it wouldn't support the power I wanted to make, that is right. but If the existing new engine in the car would handle it and was reasonable for the application, pulling it out would be a tragic loss.
For us this means we look at an assembled shortblock and ask a simple question: Will it support the application the way it is. Forget about mileage; we assume an infinite number of cheap replacement longblocks is available. If one of the goals is to use budget options. Sometimes brand new engines come with all kinds of problems so don't just assume that if you buy an expensive 5k engine it will last either. I feel far more comfortable grabbing something with 80k or 120k and riding it to 200k or 220k, that is 10 years of driving around 10k/year, when budget is a concern. if we throw budget out the window then obviously everything needs to be brand new and we should have several dyno-tested broken in engines sitting on the side waiting to go in also. The same for trans and diff. And I would also want additional chassis preparred and setup for whatever racing I am doing. That is with no budget.
Just trying to save us some money. If I had a brand new car and took out a perfectly good engine because it wouldn't support the power I wanted to make, that is right. but If the existing new engine in the car would handle it and was reasonable for the application, pulling it out would be a tragic loss.
Last edited by kingtal0n; 08-31-2017 at 04:41 PM.
10-13-2017, 11:14 AM
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As said, compressing the short answer into a 1-hour lecture...
