Heads/cam HP?
12-23-2002 | 12:50 AM
#1
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Staging Lane
Joined: May 2002
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From: Granite City, IL
Heads/cam HP? I want to do a heads and cam setup for my next car. I want a cam that idles relatively normal(not much lope, but will tolerate a little)
and some good flowing ported heads.
what is a good setup, that could fit these guidlines? what drivetrain mods would i need, for an M6?
I want HP, but want the car to idle right, and be fairly easy to tune.
what kind of hp could be seen from a similar setup? thanks
and some good flowing ported heads.
what is a good setup, that could fit these guidlines? what drivetrain mods would i need, for an M6?
I want HP, but want the car to idle right, and be fairly easy to tune.
what kind of hp could be seen from a similar setup? thanks
12-23-2002 | 01:56 AM
#3
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From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Re: Heads/cam HP? Before I chose my motor I litened to a few H/C cars, high HP (over 400) and low HP (360), they all had shitty idles IMO. I couldn't handle that shaking so i went with a stroker motor for the idle quality.
From what I've seen, your car is gonna shake allot if you go near 375 RWHP. But everyones idea of a crappy idle is different.
I wanted at least 450 RWHP, for that a H/C motor would have the worst idle in the world.
<small>[ December 23, 2002, 01:57 AM: Message edited by: Quickin ]</small>
From what I've seen, your car is gonna shake allot if you go near 375 RWHP. But everyones idea of a crappy idle is different.
I wanted at least 450 RWHP, for that a H/C motor would have the worst idle in the world.
<small>[ December 23, 2002, 01:57 AM: Message edited by: Quickin ]</small>
12-23-2002 | 04:32 AM
#4
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From: Austin, TX
Re: Heads/cam HP? Here are some examples that will give you good to fair idle (also, keep your cats on):
212 / 218
216 / 220
218 / 224
I used to have a 215/221 and the idle was good. With all bolt on's and LT headers with cats on, I made 397 rwhp! These cams will put you somewhere in the 380 rwhp to 400 rwhp range with all the bolt on’s.
One more thing! Stay with a 114 LSA
Hope this helps!
<small>[ December 23, 2002, 04:35 AM: Message edited by: RUF SS ]</small>
212 / 218
216 / 220
218 / 224
I used to have a 215/221 and the idle was good. With all bolt on's and LT headers with cats on, I made 397 rwhp! These cams will put you somewhere in the 380 rwhp to 400 rwhp range with all the bolt on’s.
One more thing! Stay with a 114 LSA
Hope this helps!
<small>[ December 23, 2002, 04:35 AM: Message edited by: RUF SS ]</small>
12-23-2002 | 06:57 AM
#5
Re: Heads/cam HP? Hi Slow T/A -
If you're interested in a smooth, factory like idle, and still want to make power, then you should check out our top end package.
You can see all of our products at:
www.lingenfelter.com
If you would like to hear what our cars sound like at idle, we could always hold the phone out the window so you can hear one!!
feel free to give me a call if you have any questions.
Ed
If you're interested in a smooth, factory like idle, and still want to make power, then you should check out our top end package.
You can see all of our products at:
www.lingenfelter.com
If you would like to hear what our cars sound like at idle, we could always hold the phone out the window so you can hear one!!
feel free to give me a call if you have any questions.
Ed
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12-23-2002 | 09:44 AM
#8
Re: Heads/cam HP? If your thinking about heads, check out this thread about discussion on TEA's heads.
https://ls1tech.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ulti...=001463#000001
Sounds to me like TEA Stage 2 heads and a TR-220 cam would be almost perfect. However, if you read and see a few heads and cam cars that are properly set up, with 224 sized cams and tuning, you might want to think about a TR-224 or SRP224 or something like that. Look at the 114 LSA's and avoid the 112 LSA, in general for a good idle.
My car has a bigger SRP224 XE-R cam and it's very tame.
My car warmed up can pass for an LS1 with a catback rather than a heads and cam car, when it's warmed up. With the quiet SLP dual/dual and no cats, people generally don't even look, the car is that quiet at idle and low rpm. MTI got the tune dead on and it idles fine @ ~900 rpm. It will shake a little but the car is very tame and driveable. I've can drive in city traffic bumper to bumper and it's no worse than a stock M6 car is <img border="0" alt="[Driving]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_driving3.gif" /> . In a parking lot, at like less than 5mph the car will want to surge a little, but a stock car will do that too if you get slow enough. Tap the clutch and it's gone.
I don't think a 218/224 will idle any better than a good TR-224 or 224 XE-R. In fact the 218/224 will probably idle very similar due to slower ramps and the same exhaust duration on the same LSA. The 218/224 will make less power than a TR-224, SRP224 etc
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />
https://ls1tech.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ulti...=001463#000001
Sounds to me like TEA Stage 2 heads and a TR-220 cam would be almost perfect. However, if you read and see a few heads and cam cars that are properly set up, with 224 sized cams and tuning, you might want to think about a TR-224 or SRP224 or something like that. Look at the 114 LSA's and avoid the 112 LSA, in general for a good idle.
My car has a bigger SRP224 XE-R cam and it's very tame.
My car warmed up can pass for an LS1 with a catback rather than a heads and cam car, when it's warmed up. With the quiet SLP dual/dual and no cats, people generally don't even look, the car is that quiet at idle and low rpm. MTI got the tune dead on and it idles fine @ ~900 rpm. It will shake a little but the car is very tame and driveable. I've can drive in city traffic bumper to bumper and it's no worse than a stock M6 car is <img border="0" alt="[Driving]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_driving3.gif" /> . In a parking lot, at like less than 5mph the car will want to surge a little, but a stock car will do that too if you get slow enough. Tap the clutch and it's gone.
I don't think a 218/224 will idle any better than a good TR-224 or 224 XE-R. In fact the 218/224 will probably idle very similar due to slower ramps and the same exhaust duration on the same LSA. The 218/224 will make less power than a TR-224, SRP224 etc
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />
12-23-2002 | 06:10 PM
#9
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From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Re: Heads/cam HP? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Ed Potter @ LPE:
<strong>Hi Slow T/A -
If you're interested in a smooth, factory like idle, and still want to make power, then you should check out our top end package.
You can see all of our products at:</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">very low power, maybe good, but low. Certainly nowhere near 400+ RWHP with a factory idle, IMPOSSIBLE.
I spent allot of time listening to and riding in many different types of H/C cars, all of the ones with just good power (360-380 RWHP) idle nowhere near stock. If you want 400+ RWHP you can forget about it.
<strong>Hi Slow T/A -
If you're interested in a smooth, factory like idle, and still want to make power, then you should check out our top end package.
You can see all of our products at:</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">very low power, maybe good, but low. Certainly nowhere near 400+ RWHP with a factory idle, IMPOSSIBLE.
I spent allot of time listening to and riding in many different types of H/C cars, all of the ones with just good power (360-380 RWHP) idle nowhere near stock. If you want 400+ RWHP you can forget about it.
12-23-2002 | 06:53 PM
#10
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Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Cape Coral,FL
Re: Heads/cam HP? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Quickin:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Ed Potter @ LPE:
<strong>Hi Slow T/A -
If you're interested in a smooth, factory like idle, and still want to make power, then you should check out our top end package.
You can see all of our products at:</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">very low power, maybe good, but low. Certainly nowhere near 400+ RWHP with a factory idle, IMPOSSIBLE.
I spent allot of time listening to and riding in many different types of H/C cars, all of the ones with just good power (360-380 RWHP) idle nowhere near stock. If you want 400+ RWHP you can forget about it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Has noone bein reading this? If joe prince is still around, im pretty sure he can throw that theory out the window. Search Joe Prince setups and you find he made 360+ w/his stage 1 head and 01"ls6 cam, also, he had a customer make 400+ with the 218/224 cam . Put in a right set of heads w/a 220 cam and good tune and the thing will sound stock, drive stock and perform awsome. Im sure some will agree with me.
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Ed Potter @ LPE:
<strong>Hi Slow T/A -
If you're interested in a smooth, factory like idle, and still want to make power, then you should check out our top end package.
You can see all of our products at:</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">very low power, maybe good, but low. Certainly nowhere near 400+ RWHP with a factory idle, IMPOSSIBLE.
I spent allot of time listening to and riding in many different types of H/C cars, all of the ones with just good power (360-380 RWHP) idle nowhere near stock. If you want 400+ RWHP you can forget about it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Has noone bein reading this? If joe prince is still around, im pretty sure he can throw that theory out the window. Search Joe Prince setups and you find he made 360+ w/his stage 1 head and 01"ls6 cam, also, he had a customer make 400+ with the 218/224 cam . Put in a right set of heads w/a 220 cam and good tune and the thing will sound stock, drive stock and perform awsome. Im sure some will agree with me.
12-23-2002 | 09:50 PM
#11
Re: Heads/cam HP? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Quickin:
I spent allot of time listening to and riding in many different types of H/C cars, all of the ones with just good power (360-380 RWHP) idle nowhere near stock. If you want 400+ RWHP you can forget about it.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Might want to reconsider your statement because some 02 Z06 Vettes can get 390+rwhp with bolt on's. So I think it goes to reason that 400rwhp with near stock idle is quiet possible.
Also be aware that one 02 Z06 Vette with Bolt on's and the GMPP LS6 heads (LPE stuff)make ~420+rwhp with it's STOCK Z06 LS6 cam.
Now I can belive if you looked some ARE cars making 400rwhp + some of them might not have the best idle quailty as ARE tends to favor very big cams most of the time.
I spent allot of time listening to and riding in many different types of H/C cars, all of the ones with just good power (360-380 RWHP) idle nowhere near stock. If you want 400+ RWHP you can forget about it.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Might want to reconsider your statement because some 02 Z06 Vettes can get 390+rwhp with bolt on's. So I think it goes to reason that 400rwhp with near stock idle is quiet possible.
Also be aware that one 02 Z06 Vette with Bolt on's and the GMPP LS6 heads (LPE stuff)make ~420+rwhp with it's STOCK Z06 LS6 cam.
Now I can belive if you looked some ARE cars making 400rwhp + some of them might not have the best idle quailty as ARE tends to favor very big cams most of the time.
12-23-2002 | 10:39 PM
#12
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From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Re: Heads/cam HP? It comes down to what everyones idea of a good idle is, because I've learned it's a big difference.
My ARE 436 for instance: I asked for a cam that would idle EXACTLY like stock, after all the only reason I bought a stroker was to get the better idle. ARE put a 242/242 .610.610 114 lsa in it. (They should have put in a 230/230.) They say it will idle like factory, Mike Norris started it up last week and the thing is nowhere near a stock idle. A guy in California has an ARE 436 with a little bit smaller cam in his and he says his doesn't idle anywhere near stock either.
All I know is I have been in H/C cars that had 380 RWHP and they were clearly loping more than a factory car, maybe not shaking my fillings out but sitting at a light if I heard it, I would immediately know it's got a cam in it. 440 RWHP, I'd like to see a H/C car idle exactly like stock. Never happen.
I wanted to go with the MMS Agressor 500 package, Mike Morgan said the car is gonna shake like crazy and there's nothing he can do about it. LPE told me the same thing, MTI, MORE, Norris Motorsports, ARE, everyone. Thats why I had to go with a stroker, because I wanted at least 450 RWHP and I didn't want my daily driver to annoy everyone that got in it.
My ARE 436 for instance: I asked for a cam that would idle EXACTLY like stock, after all the only reason I bought a stroker was to get the better idle. ARE put a 242/242 .610.610 114 lsa in it. (They should have put in a 230/230.) They say it will idle like factory, Mike Norris started it up last week and the thing is nowhere near a stock idle. A guy in California has an ARE 436 with a little bit smaller cam in his and he says his doesn't idle anywhere near stock either.
All I know is I have been in H/C cars that had 380 RWHP and they were clearly loping more than a factory car, maybe not shaking my fillings out but sitting at a light if I heard it, I would immediately know it's got a cam in it. 440 RWHP, I'd like to see a H/C car idle exactly like stock. Never happen.
I wanted to go with the MMS Agressor 500 package, Mike Morgan said the car is gonna shake like crazy and there's nothing he can do about it. LPE told me the same thing, MTI, MORE, Norris Motorsports, ARE, everyone. Thats why I had to go with a stroker, because I wanted at least 450 RWHP and I didn't want my daily driver to annoy everyone that got in it.
12-25-2002 | 09:08 PM
#13
Re: Heads/cam HP? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Quickin:
<strong>Before I chose my motor I litened to a few H/C cars, high HP (over 400) and low HP (360), they all had shitty idles IMO. . .
. . . I wanted at least 450 RWHP, for that a H/C motor would have the worst idle in the world.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Before you make a blanket statement, listen to my car and go for a ride with me on Saturday night <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
<strong>Before I chose my motor I litened to a few H/C cars, high HP (over 400) and low HP (360), they all had shitty idles IMO. . .
. . . I wanted at least 450 RWHP, for that a H/C motor would have the worst idle in the world.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Before you make a blanket statement, listen to my car and go for a ride with me on Saturday night <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
12-25-2002 | 09:18 PM
#14
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From: Louisiana
Re: Heads/cam HP? For a good idle and the most power, I would go with GTP S2 heads and a TR224 cam on a 114lsa + use a quite catback ( SLP dual/dual, Hooker ) to achieve a near stock idle sound. My car made 441rwhp with the GTP/TR224 cam through the y-pipe.
With the Hooker catback I lost about 6rwhp, it was very quite and muffled a lot of the lope.
E-mail me if ou have any specific questions.
Justin
With the Hooker catback I lost about 6rwhp, it was very quite and muffled a lot of the lope.
E-mail me if ou have any specific questions.
Justin
12-25-2002 | 11:50 PM
#15
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From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Re: Heads/cam HP? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by The Dragon:
Before you make a blanket statement, listen to my car and go for a ride with me on Saturday night <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If your car sat near a factory stock car and they were both idling could I tell the difference?
And you have 360ish RWHP don't you? I'm talking higher HP, 400+.
Before you make a blanket statement, listen to my car and go for a ride with me on Saturday night <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If your car sat near a factory stock car and they were both idling could I tell the difference?
And you have 360ish RWHP don't you? I'm talking higher HP, 400+.
12-26-2002 | 01:02 PM
#16
Re: Heads/cam HP? Actually, I have a lot more than 360 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
I had that before the H/C . . . probably even more than that even then <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
Sit my car next to an LS1 with exhaust and you would be hard pressed to tell the difference.
FYI: my set-up has in the neighborhood of 430-440rwhp.
I made 37X rwhp on 6 1/2 cylinders with a 9:1 A/F.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
I had that before the H/C . . . probably even more than that even then <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
Sit my car next to an LS1 with exhaust and you would be hard pressed to tell the difference.
FYI: my set-up has in the neighborhood of 430-440rwhp.
I made 37X rwhp on 6 1/2 cylinders with a 9:1 A/F.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
12-26-2002 | 01:20 PM
#17
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Staging Lane
Joined: May 2002
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From: Granite City, IL
Re: Heads/cam HP? I was really wanting 350-360 rwhp, but to idle near stock (not dramatically different) thank you all for the suggestions. I'll be shooting a few of you some mail.
Granite City, IL (10 minutes from STL.)
Granite City, IL (10 minutes from STL.)
12-26-2002 | 01:42 PM
#18
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Re: Heads/cam HP? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Slow T/A:
<strong>I was really wanting 350-360 rwhp, but to idle near stock (not dramatically different) thank you all for the suggestions. I'll be shooting a few of you some mail.
Granite City, IL (10 minutes from STL.)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm not a big cam guru, but if that is all you really want then you should have absolutely NO problem acheiving 350-360rwhp out of the 2002 LS6 cam with a few bolt-ons. And your idle will be just about exactly like a stock LS1/LS6 car. If you don't believe me, go listen to a stock Z06 corvette. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
Good luck,
Mike
<strong>I was really wanting 350-360 rwhp, but to idle near stock (not dramatically different) thank you all for the suggestions. I'll be shooting a few of you some mail.
Granite City, IL (10 minutes from STL.)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm not a big cam guru, but if that is all you really want then you should have absolutely NO problem acheiving 350-360rwhp out of the 2002 LS6 cam with a few bolt-ons. And your idle will be just about exactly like a stock LS1/LS6 car. If you don't believe me, go listen to a stock Z06 corvette. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
Good luck,
Mike
12-26-2002 | 02:33 PM
#19
Re: Heads/cam HP? [/qb][/QUOTE]very low power, maybe good, but low. Certainly nowhere near 400+ RWHP with a factory idle, IMPOSSIBLE.
I spent allot of time listening to and riding in many different types of H/C cars, all of the ones with just good power (360-380 RWHP) idle nowhere near stock. If you want 400+ RWHP you can forget about it.[/QB][/QUOTE]
I don't know where this information comes from, but it is definately NOT accurate. Our top end package is very conservatively rated at 430hp/400ft.lbs (flywheel)which doesn't seem like that much power, but with a catback exhaust(which we include in the package price), and the other typical bolt-ons,they are making MUCH more power.
maybe you would like to come by and see one of these IMPOSSIBLE cars in person!
Ed
I spent allot of time listening to and riding in many different types of H/C cars, all of the ones with just good power (360-380 RWHP) idle nowhere near stock. If you want 400+ RWHP you can forget about it.[/QB][/QUOTE]
I don't know where this information comes from, but it is definately NOT accurate. Our top end package is very conservatively rated at 430hp/400ft.lbs (flywheel)which doesn't seem like that much power, but with a catback exhaust(which we include in the package price), and the other typical bolt-ons,they are making MUCH more power.
maybe you would like to come by and see one of these IMPOSSIBLE cars in person!
Ed
12-26-2002 | 04:45 PM
#20
Re: Heads/cam HP? All you need is a 221/221 cam. On most cars the idle is barely choppy. I have installed several of these cams and the idle is extremely mild and drivability is awesome. The are different levels of what people consider choppy though. With this cam and some GTP stage 2's we made 420rwhp/396rwtq through CATS.
I am just across Missouri from you and if you have any questions about what you need or any of the results we have gotten from different cams give me a shout. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> 913-393-1157.
Mark
<small>[ December 26, 2002, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_ur_5.0 ]</small>
I am just across Missouri from you and if you have any questions about what you need or any of the results we have gotten from different cams give me a shout. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> 913-393-1157.
Mark
<small>[ December 26, 2002, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_ur_5.0 ]</small>