How do you guys work on these cars?
11-07-2005, 05:15 PM
#41
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i just edited that. yeah, it wouldn't have a problem making 500rwhp. The only trouble it COULD have would be valvetrain, but LS1 would run into that just as fast. Im just going to assume a solid roller is the same price for both to convert to. I'm sure its cheaper for the gen I, but whatever.
do the afrs include all the gaskets and hardware?
That was a superquick run through summit. I know some asshat is going to call me out saying I used wide journal this that doesn't match that, blah blah blah. But if I didn't, someone would say "no, its $775, not $750"
do the afrs include all the gaskets and hardware?
That was a superquick run through summit. I know some asshat is going to call me out saying I used wide journal this that doesn't match that, blah blah blah. But if I didn't, someone would say "no, its $775, not $750"
11-07-2005, 05:21 PM
#42
Originally Posted by treyZ28
I think you underestimated cost a bit.
Lets make this fun. Everything from summit racing. I'm sure I could find it cheaper if I looked around. I'm sure I could buy a package much cheaper too.
Broadix 220cc Heads, intake, gaskets, etc- $2000. Complete with dual valvesprings, gaskets, head bolts, rocker studges and all the gadgets and gizmos
Cam: $120
Going to assume Lifters are the same price
Rockers - $260
Block: - uhh yeah. Clean machined 4 bolt main block is like $300
Pistons: Lets go all out, because we're bad ***. $630 for JE ultralight pistons.
Rods: Lunati (because i know they make LS stuff) 4340 forged rod: $420
Crank: again, were ballers. Lunati 4340 forged crankshaft. $775
Lets keep going.
Super baller main caps: $200
Fuel delivery: Carb: $350
Tuning: $0
We'll assume oil pump system and pan are equally priced.
If you want to bitch about gas, Fuel injectors and fuel rail blanks are about $300. Add some tapping of the intake manifold and megasquirt. I dont know what megasquirt goes for but i know its not that expensive. figure $450 total and you can tune yourself easily.
Ignition: not even going to bother, but i promise a cap and rotor are cheaper than 8 coils and sensors
$4755.
Add up light forged Je pistons, Forged Lunati crank and rods, fuel system after the lines, cam, rockers, heads, intake, sensors, throttle body, valve covers, valves, valve springs, rockers, gaskets (top end), rocker studs, all the bolts and hardware and cool main caps. Ohh and a hat biatch!
You can eaaasily make 500hp with that. easily.
Lets make this fun. Everything from summit racing. I'm sure I could find it cheaper if I looked around. I'm sure I could buy a package much cheaper too.
Broadix 220cc Heads, intake, gaskets, etc- $2000. Complete with dual valvesprings, gaskets, head bolts, rocker studges and all the gadgets and gizmos
Cam: $120
Going to assume Lifters are the same price
Rockers - $260
Block: - uhh yeah. Clean machined 4 bolt main block is like $300
Pistons: Lets go all out, because we're bad ***. $630 for JE ultralight pistons.
Rods: Lunati (because i know they make LS stuff) 4340 forged rod: $420
Crank: again, were ballers. Lunati 4340 forged crankshaft. $775
Lets keep going.
Super baller main caps: $200
Fuel delivery: Carb: $350
Tuning: $0
We'll assume oil pump system and pan are equally priced.
If you want to bitch about gas, Fuel injectors and fuel rail blanks are about $300. Add some tapping of the intake manifold and megasquirt. I dont know what megasquirt goes for but i know its not that expensive. figure $450 total and you can tune yourself easily.
Ignition: not even going to bother, but i promise a cap and rotor are cheaper than 8 coils and sensors
$4755.
Add up light forged Je pistons, Forged Lunati crank and rods, fuel system after the lines, cam, rockers, heads, intake, sensors, throttle body, valve covers, valves, valve springs, rockers, gaskets (top end), rocker studs, all the bolts and hardware and cool main caps. Ohh and a hat biatch!
You can eaaasily make 500hp with that. easily.
11-07-2005, 05:26 PM
#43
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Originally Posted by 1FST99Z
lots of blood,sweat, and explitives go into every mod I put on the car. o yeah and a lifetime supply of cuts on you knuckles that will never heal, b/c you are always workin on the car upgrading somthing
11-07-2005, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ddnspider
i tell ya what you go ahead and build that motor and line em up next time your down south in FL.See what happens...and Tonys not the only 1 who has decided to put an LS based motor in between the fenders of an old school muscle car,theres a reason so many are doing it now....and ditching their SBC motors.There hasnt been a motor so flexible in use and has the capability to easily be put into almost anything.why do you think you can find an LS motor in muscle cars, SUPRAS, domestics etc?But you dont happen to see SBC's put into all those listed by a large amount of people do you?100000 members on here would disagree that the SBC is better.
11-07-2005, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ddnspider
i tell ya what you go ahead and build that motor and line em up next time your down south in FL.See what happens...and Tonys not the only 1 who has decided to put an LS based motor in between the fenders of an old school muscle car,theres a reason so many are doing it now....and ditching their SBC motors.There hasnt been a motor so flexible in use and has the capability to easily be put into almost anything.why do you think you can find an LS motor in muscle cars, SUPRAS, domestics etc?But you dont happen to see SBC's put into all those listed by a large amount of people do you?100000 members on here would disagree that the SBC is better.
what else can you use? Ford? the DOHC motors are huge and uselss without boost
Dodge? good one.
LT1? ... yea. worst generation.
you can also just bolt on a few things and go with mostly factory stuff. No need for a whole rebuild. Gen I's didn't come with dart heads :p
Last edited by treyZ28; 11-07-2005 at 05:38 PM.
11-07-2005, 05:36 PM
#47
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Originally Posted by Nine Ball
I'll bet I can swap the camshaft in an LS1 f-body faster than you can in your 69 Dart. If looking under the hood of a late model car intimidates you, then you probably don't have enough skills to work on them anyways 
With the proper tools and skills for the job, these cars are relatively simple to work on.
Tony
With the proper tools and skills for the job, these cars are relatively simple to work on.
Tony
11-07-2005, 05:46 PM
#48
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You think the Z was bad to work one try working on a Saturn them bishes are so cramped under the hood I had to take the passenger wheel off, remove the inspection cover, slam my hand into a tigh space scraping knuckles all the way down to release the belt to change the damn alternator. What a PITA never again my friends. Never.
11-07-2005, 06:27 PM
#49
You think working on these cars is a PITA, try a Monza with a V8, practically have to take the front end off to change a plug, or a Nissan Pathfinder, I swear they hung the alternator in the middle of a room and built the damn car around it. There are a ton of cars that are a PITA in some way shape or form to work on. All in all the LS1 is pretty easy to work on aside from plug changes.
As for old vs new, I'll take the new, drive to the strip with the A/C and stereo on getting 25-30 mpg lay down high 12- low 13s, drive home again with A/C and stereo going getting 25-30 mpg, try that in your old muscle car, ain't gonna happen, yes an old car can be fast, anything can be fast, all it takes is money
As for old vs new, I'll take the new, drive to the strip with the A/C and stereo on getting 25-30 mpg lay down high 12- low 13s, drive home again with A/C and stereo going getting 25-30 mpg, try that in your old muscle car, ain't gonna happen, yes an old car can be fast, anything can be fast, all it takes is money
11-07-2005, 06:40 PM
#50
Originally Posted by davesdartgt
Man, my brother brought over his 98 Z28 to change out the torque conveter to a high stall. After that I would never buy a newer car again. You guys are either rich to pay someone every time your car needs to be worked on or have very high blood pressure. I have a 69 Dart & a 70 Challenger & can change an alternator in less than 15 minutes. I changed the heater core on my Dart last weekend & took less than a 1/2 hour. There was so much crap on my bro's Z28 to remove I couldn't believe it. We needed (2) 24" extensions & a swivel just to get to the bellhousing bolts.
I'll give you guys credit if you do work on these cars, but I will never buy one as long as I live. I don't care about fuel injection, ABS brakes or all that other crap that supposedly makes life better. I told my bro he should have bought a 69 Camaro with a 454 & then he could have actually worked on it & people would be giving him thumbs up every block.
Good Luck to you guys.
I'll give you guys credit if you do work on these cars, but I will never buy one as long as I live. I don't care about fuel injection, ABS brakes or all that other crap that supposedly makes life better. I told my bro he should have bought a 69 Camaro with a 454 & then he could have actually worked on it & people would be giving him thumbs up every block.
Good Luck to you guys.
11-07-2005, 06:42 PM
#51
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All it takes is motivation. I never would have thought I could do everything I can on these cars now. I have swapped entire engines, done cams, suspention, clutches, etc.,
11-08-2005, 01:56 PM
#52
while the parts listed above are nice, I would be interested in seeing something like that with a $300 4 bolt stock displacement block pull 550rwhp. Not saying it won't happen, just in my experience it takes one HELL of a motor to put down that kind of power. The LS1 comes stock with a head that 15 years ago would have been a Winston cup head and the aftermarket cam lobe profiles even now rival full race motors.
FWIW, I built a SBC for around $2000 (maybe a bit more): got a $75 block, had it machined, reused the stock pistons/rods/crank, got some $250 pocket ported stocker heads, Erson High Flow AH cam, valvetrain, ignition (Mallory HEI), 1406 carb, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, etc. Put out 260rwhp through a TH350 and 2:30 gears. Granted I didn't really know diddly about combinations, etc but something tells me an extra $2800 wouldn't be enough to put it up to 550rwhp. Even buying a $1800 Edelbrock Performer RPM heads/cam package would have put me around 420hp, a far cry from 550RWHP.
FWIW, I built a SBC for around $2000 (maybe a bit more): got a $75 block, had it machined, reused the stock pistons/rods/crank, got some $250 pocket ported stocker heads, Erson High Flow AH cam, valvetrain, ignition (Mallory HEI), 1406 carb, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, etc. Put out 260rwhp through a TH350 and 2:30 gears. Granted I didn't really know diddly about combinations, etc but something tells me an extra $2800 wouldn't be enough to put it up to 550rwhp. Even buying a $1800 Edelbrock Performer RPM heads/cam package would have put me around 420hp, a far cry from 550RWHP.
11-08-2005, 02:14 PM
#53
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Originally Posted by magius231
while the parts listed above are nice, I would be interested in seeing something like that with a $300 4 bolt stock displacement block pull 550rwhp. Not saying it won't happen, just in my experience it takes one HELL of a motor to put down that kind of power. The LS1 comes stock with a head that 15 years ago would have been a Winston cup head and the aftermarket cam lobe profiles even now rival full race motors.
FWIW, I built a SBC for around $2000 (maybe a bit more): got a $75 block, had it machined, reused the stock pistons/rods/crank, got some $250 pocket ported stocker heads, Erson High Flow AH cam, valvetrain, ignition (Mallory HEI), 1406 carb, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, etc. Put out 260rwhp through a TH350 and 2:30 gears. Granted I didn't really know diddly about combinations, etc but something tells me an extra $2800 wouldn't be enough to put it up to 550rwhp. Even buying a $1800 Edelbrock Performer RPM heads/cam package would have put me around 420hp, a far cry from 550RWHP.
FWIW, I built a SBC for around $2000 (maybe a bit more): got a $75 block, had it machined, reused the stock pistons/rods/crank, got some $250 pocket ported stocker heads, Erson High Flow AH cam, valvetrain, ignition (Mallory HEI), 1406 carb, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, etc. Put out 260rwhp through a TH350 and 2:30 gears. Granted I didn't really know diddly about combinations, etc but something tells me an extra $2800 wouldn't be enough to put it up to 550rwhp. Even buying a $1800 Edelbrock Performer RPM heads/cam package would have put me around 420hp, a far cry from 550RWHP.
The potential of those heads I posted
NEXTEL cup cams
Potential of a small block
Do you think quality of the quality if the LSx heads heads is 3rd gen exclusive? You can buy aftermarket heads for the gen I that make the LS6 heads look like bent straws.
that was just quick search summit stuff. there are a host of other things you can do, such as aftermarket blocks giving you another 1/8'' bore.
or you could go ford 429/460. basically a 350/383 bored out to a 429/460.
An SBC 400 is another option
its all about the heads. the bottom ends are too similar to make a difference- other than cost. a 6.0 has the same bore as a 350. a wide variety of crank lengths are available for the 350 and like i said- heads to make LSx heads looks like straws.
Jim Lab was making about 650rwhp on an LT1 (not any different bottom end)
Mindgame was doing something nuts with genI heads on a gen II, again NA.
edit: concidering prices are almost the same, a 351 might be the way to go. symetrical heads and a few other options at your disposal.
Last edited by treyZ28; 11-08-2005 at 02:22 PM.
11-08-2005, 02:29 PM
#54
thats not my point, yes anything can be done given enough money, but I remember Jim putting his combo together, it was NOT cheap. Mindgame can claim a similarly large $$ on his setup. Its extremely hard to beat the fact that with bolt ons, heads and cam on a stock block you can put down 550rwhp on these motors. Is it the only motor? nope, but its sure got a damn good head start on everyone else.
11-08-2005, 02:35 PM
#55
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Originally Posted by treyZ28
You can buy aftermarket heads for the gen I that make the LS6 heads look like bent straws.
11-08-2005, 02:57 PM
#56
All it takes is beer. Lots of it. Then work on whatever car you want.
The LS1 is a badass engine that really does make power pretty easily.
Every crate engine SBC I've seen costs more than the LS2 402 I was just quoted on and makes a lot less horsepower. How much money would it take to make 540rwhp in a SBC, get 26mpg, be so driveable that your grandma could drive it, and run on pump gas pretty much worry free for 100k miles? Build something like that for less than $8k with only new parts and I'll buy your engine instead of the one I was quoted. Of course, you have a 35 year headstart on the Gen III.
As an example of a great SBC, Bill Mitchell has a Hardcore 454, that makes around 600HP, but it has a solid roller, fairly high compression for a carb'd engine, and would get less gas mileage for 11k. It's a comparable engine in components, heads, camshaft size, and output, and yet it costs more. Which would you go with?
Also, the Endurance in my Titan is the next badass small block type engine. It made 275rwhp 335rwtq STOCK through a 4x4 transfer case, 5-speed auto, and a Dana 60 rearend. Some number for an engine rated at 305HP. I'd hate to see what it could do if the cams were switched out for some that could extend the RPM range beyond 5200 rpm.
Yay beer!
The LS1 is a badass engine that really does make power pretty easily.
Every crate engine SBC I've seen costs more than the LS2 402 I was just quoted on and makes a lot less horsepower. How much money would it take to make 540rwhp in a SBC, get 26mpg, be so driveable that your grandma could drive it, and run on pump gas pretty much worry free for 100k miles? Build something like that for less than $8k with only new parts and I'll buy your engine instead of the one I was quoted. Of course, you have a 35 year headstart on the Gen III.
As an example of a great SBC, Bill Mitchell has a Hardcore 454, that makes around 600HP, but it has a solid roller, fairly high compression for a carb'd engine, and would get less gas mileage for 11k. It's a comparable engine in components, heads, camshaft size, and output, and yet it costs more. Which would you go with?
Also, the Endurance in my Titan is the next badass small block type engine. It made 275rwhp 335rwtq STOCK through a 4x4 transfer case, 5-speed auto, and a Dana 60 rearend. Some number for an engine rated at 305HP. I'd hate to see what it could do if the cams were switched out for some that could extend the RPM range beyond 5200 rpm.
Yay beer!
11-08-2005, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by 66deuce
yes,but you will spend a LOT of money on those heads.wait a few more years and you will see the prices of Gen III parts come down.the SBC has been around for about 50 yrs,and was the most popular motor to build.lot's of cheap parts around for it.the same thing will happen to the GEN III once it's been around for awhile.
agreed about evolution. and I cant wait.
the heads i posted, with intake (which id guess to beat the crap out of an LS6), valve covers, all the hardware etc- $2000.
As far as gas milage (other post) yeah, carb isn't going to beat efi. but 20mpg is definatley possible with 11 second times (know a guy with a 3rd gen and TH400 who does it). A few hundred for EFI conversion like I mentinoed before and a T-56, there is no reason why they wouldn't be VERY close to equal.
Jake, I work for nissan (and posting from there). I know about your titan
. Keep an eye on rear diff temps.Durability: This means you are comparing 1967 manufacturing vs 2006 manufacturing. Or you are comparing aftermarket to oem. neither is really fair.
My only real issue is the underestimating of SBC potential. People think that just because its an SBC its going to be a gas hogging, low power pig. Unfortunatley, thats the image created with outdated crate engines and low budget rednecks that dont know what they are doing.
and a 600hp 454 is not "hard core"
Last edited by treyZ28; 11-08-2005 at 03:08 PM.
11-08-2005, 03:29 PM
#58
The hard core was an example of a streetable SBC that would be good in a car and produce good times. I know you can produce a 350 that makes 750HP with 104 octane with the right parts and a solid roller. Not everyone wants to do this or should.
The rear ends on the Titan are fairly horrid. I've switched over to Mobil 1 for everything and I'll see how that does. I'm really wanting some cams to come out that can push this thing up close to a 7k rpm peak. Then it would make a lot of power as it sits (although, I have no idea what the hell the heads flow, but I would assume 260+).
The rear ends on the Titan are fairly horrid. I've switched over to Mobil 1 for everything and I'll see how that does. I'm really wanting some cams to come out that can push this thing up close to a 7k rpm peak. Then it would make a lot of power as it sits (although, I have no idea what the hell the heads flow, but I would assume 260+).
11-08-2005, 03:35 PM
#59
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Old cars break a lot. My old '85 truck with the 383 did atleast. My ls1 never really breaks or needs to be messed with.... When something is wrong the computer tells me exactly what it is before it becomes a big problem. My stroker blew up in my old truck and nobody had any clue why untill it was tore apart. My ls1 is comforable, fast and I can drive it every day with decent gas mileage. My truck had a pita bench seat, and I paid a fortune in gas, and that's back when gas was cheaper.
Not to mention everything sucked to work on that hadn't been replaced. And it was a bitch replacing old bolts that were rusted and anything else. My ls1 everything is nice clean and comes off really easy no matter what part im working on. Pluss I have all these nice people on the forum to help me do things when I get stuck or don't know what's going on. With the truck it was a bat in the dark to get help. Even most of the shops id go to would turn me away.
I'd say for the average person, the ls1 is much better to own then an older car unless you're a master mechanic able to do all the work yourself with a nice 3000 snapon tool set. I get the job done on my car with my 100 dolar sears toolkit. I can take my whole car apart with an 8, 10 and 15mm socket and some extentions. The money you might save in parts for building would be wasted in gas anyway. A lot of people daily drive their ls1's where as old cars tend to just sit there and be weekend cars. How many of you daily drive your 500hp old school cars? I bet not many, it would cost a fortune.
This is ofcourse just my opinion, please respect mine as I respect all yours.
Not to mention everything sucked to work on that hadn't been replaced. And it was a bitch replacing old bolts that were rusted and anything else. My ls1 everything is nice clean and comes off really easy no matter what part im working on. Pluss I have all these nice people on the forum to help me do things when I get stuck or don't know what's going on. With the truck it was a bat in the dark to get help. Even most of the shops id go to would turn me away.
I'd say for the average person, the ls1 is much better to own then an older car unless you're a master mechanic able to do all the work yourself with a nice 3000 snapon tool set. I get the job done on my car with my 100 dolar sears toolkit. I can take my whole car apart with an 8, 10 and 15mm socket and some extentions. The money you might save in parts for building would be wasted in gas anyway. A lot of people daily drive their ls1's where as old cars tend to just sit there and be weekend cars. How many of you daily drive your 500hp old school cars? I bet not many, it would cost a fortune.
This is ofcourse just my opinion, please respect mine as I respect all yours.
11-08-2005, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by JakeFusion
The hard core was an example of a streetable SBC that would be good in a car and produce good times. I know you can produce a 350 that makes 750HP with 104 octane with the right parts and a solid roller. Not everyone wants to do this or should.
The rear ends on the Titan are fairly horrid. I've switched over to Mobil 1 for everything and I'll see how that does. I'm really wanting some cams to come out that can push this thing up close to a 7k rpm peak. Then it would make a lot of power as it sits (although, I have no idea what the hell the heads flow, but I would assume 260+).
The rear ends on the Titan are fairly horrid. I've switched over to Mobil 1 for everything and I'll see how that does. I'm really wanting some cams to come out that can push this thing up close to a 7k rpm peak. Then it would make a lot of power as it sits (although, I have no idea what the hell the heads flow, but I would assume 260+).
there is nothing magical about an LS1. take a step back.